fatherofone Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 If you have your name removed from the records of the church, does that undo all temple sealings baptisms etc, sort of like an excommunication?
fatherofone Posted May 11, 2012 Author Posted May 11, 2012 Ask your bishop.did not really want to go there, I am just curious
thesometimesaint Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 fatherofone:One is where it is voluntary, the other not so much. Special permission is necessary for both to return to membership.
fatherofone Posted May 11, 2012 Author Posted May 11, 2012 fatherofone:One is where it is voluntary, the other not so much. Special permission is necessary for both to return to membership.understood but where it is voluntary does it undo everything
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 If you have your name removed from the records of the church, does that undo all temple sealings baptisms etc, sort of like an excommunication?I think so...but your Bishop will know where to find the answer. If you no longer believe I don't see what the point is, it will take years before people get the message and leave you alone. Then every time new Bishopric's are called or new missionaries show up they will have outdated records and still show up out of nowhere. But they do s because they care...we are good people just doing the best thing we know how to do. I once was thrown out of someone's house only to have his wife send him out to apologize. They later returned to Church. It is a door best left partially open.
thesometimesaint Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 fatherofone:Yes; Though, at least in theory, it would be easier to regain membership. I don't know of anyone who actually has
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 fatherofone:Yes; Though, at least in theory, it would be easier to regain membership. I don't know of anyone who actually hasI have taught many who did.
Mark Beesley Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 (edited) If you have your name removed from the records of the church, does that undo all temple sealings baptisms etc, sort of like an excommunication?There is no difference as a practical matter. Excommunication does not "undo" all temple sealings; it puts it in a kind of limbo, as explained to me once. Even with excommunication, the First Presidency would have to take action on an application to have a sealing cancelled. I don't know how often that happens. Whether one is excommunicated voluntarily or involuntarily, baptism is required to come back to the Church, and if the person was endowed, there is an ordinance to restore priesthood, i.e. temple blessings. What happens in the hereafter if an endowed member was excommunicated, never came back, but never had a sealing cancelled . . . that is anyone's guess. We don't know. Edited May 11, 2012 by Mark Beesley
Saints Alive Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 My understanding is that excommunication and name removal have the same effect, the process of reinstatement is different but everything else is the same. 1
ERayR Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 understood but where it is voluntary does it undo everythingyes 1
Gohan Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 Yep, it does, what?Undo the things that fatherofone inquired about. Sorry, brain wasn't quite functioning on a full awake mode when I replied to that post.
rpn Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 Yes it does, which is why the procedure is to make sure the member knows what they are doing when they ask for it. But it cannot and does not sever sealings from the side of the continuing righteous party. Thus, a faithful spouse's sealing to the name removed isn't cancelled --- the name removed person doesn't have power to determine that for their still faithful spouse; even though they chose to sever their own sealings. Of course none of us know how that would play out in the eternities, as it pertains to interactions with those who opted out. Another way of looking at is is to consider what happens in the same circumstance to children who are Born in the Covenant to parents who eventually have their names removed. It can't change that their children were born in the covenant, with all of those rights and blessings.
Gohan Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 Yes it does, which is why the procedure is to make sure the member knows what they are doing when they ask for it. But it cannot and does not sever sealings from the side of the continuing righteous party. Thus, a faithful spouse's sealing to the name removed isn't cancelled --- the name removed person doesn't have power to determine that for their still faithful spouse; even though they chose to sever their own sealings. Of course none of us know how that would play out in the eternities, as it pertains to interactions with those who opted out. Another way of looking at is is to consider what happens in the same circumstance to children who are Born in the Covenant to parents who eventually have their names removed. It can't change that their children were born in the covenant, with all of those rights and blessings.Wish I'd realized that when I was a kid. I went through a lot of mental anguish thinking I wasn't sealed to my parents and siblings anymore when one of my parents was separated from the church for a time.
JAHS Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 I think one thing that people don't get sometimes is that when we are sealed to a spouse or children sealed to parents, they are not just being sealed to one or two people but are actually sealed into the entire patriarchal order of families in heaven. We will all be one big happy family together in the Celestial kingdom. Because of this the innocent family members still retain the blessings of being sealed.
Garden Girl Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 (edited) Yes it does, which is why the procedure is to make sure the member knows what they are doing when they ask for it. But it cannot and does not sever sealings from the side of the continuing righteous party. Thus, a faithful spouse's sealing to the name removed isn't cancelled --- the name removed person doesn't have power to determine that for their still faithful spouse; even though they chose to sever their own sealings. Of course none of us know how that would play out in the eternities, as it pertains to interactions with those who opted out. Another way of looking at is is to consider what happens in the same circumstance to children who are Born in the Covenant to parents who eventually have their names removed. It can't change that their children were born in the covenant, with all of those rights and blessings.Somebody correct me if I'm wrong... but my understanding is that the faithful spouse retains all of the blessings and potential blessings according to the ordinance, but that s/he does not continue to be actually sealed to the person who cancelled their membership/sealing. But s/he is not precluded from any blessing promised when s/he was sealed, while the spouse gives up his/her blessings. However that will be handled, s/he will suffer no loss.GG Edited May 11, 2012 by Garden Girl
Grundelwalken Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 Somebody correct me if I'm wrong... but my understanding is that the faithful spouse retains all of the blessings and potential blessings according to the ordinance, but that s/he does not continue to be actually sealed to the person who cancelled their membership/sealing. But s/he is not precluded from any blessing promised when s/he was sealed, while the spouse gives up his/her blessings. However that will be handled, s/he will suffer no loss.GGThat would be a mostly correct understanding. The faithful spouse is "technically" sealed to the offending spouse and S/He cannot be sealed to another person without a cancellation of sealing but the blessings of the original sealing are still in effect.MW
Calm Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 (edited) The faithful spouse is "technically" sealed to the offending spouse and S/He cannot be sealed to another person without a cancellation of sealing but the blessings of the original sealing are still in effect.MWThey are only "technically" sealed in the sense that the offending spouse has taken the available 'space' or role of covenanted spouse and made it unavailable to someone else even though they themselves have now vacated that space/role through their breaking of their own covenants (but not the covenants of their spouse). The cancellation frees the space/role for someone else to fill it, it does not 'kick out' the offending spouse, that person having left that part of the relationship on his/her own. Edited May 11, 2012 by calmoriah
Cobalt-70 Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 (edited) If you have your name removed from the records of the church, does that undo all temple sealings baptisms etc, sort of like an excommunication?I know as a practical matter, having your name removed from the church's roles is treated the same as excommunication, but where is the doctrinal or theoretical basis for that? How can a clerical act of taking someone's name out of a database have eternal consequences? When they remove your name, it's not like they draw a witches circle and burn your effigy inside--they just take your name off of a list. Can a clerical act loose what was bound in heaven by a priesthood ordinance? Edited May 11, 2012 by Cobalt-70
Log Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 (edited) I know as a practical matter, having your name removed from the church's roles is treated the same as excommunication, but where is the doctrinal or theoretical basis for that? ...Can a clerical act loose what was bound in heaven by a priesthood ordinance?Doctrinal basis: your name is no longer found in the book of life.What confuses me is how the significance of that could be missed - after all, it's all text, isn't it? Edited May 11, 2012 by Log 1
ERayR Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 (edited) I know as a practical matter, having your name removed from the church's roles is treated the same as excommunication, but where is the doctrinal or theoretical basis for that? How can a clerical act of taking someone's name out of a database have eternal consequences? When they remove your name, it's not like they draw a witches circle and burn your effigy inside--they just take your name off of a list. Can a clerical act loose what was bound in heaven by a priesthood ordinance?It is not just a clerical act. It is not just treated the same as excommunication it is excommunication by your own request. A court is held and membership is revoked and along with it goes the blessings associated with that membership. It is not just taking a name out of a database. As has been stated above it is removing your name from the Lamb's book of life at your own request and is not done without the Bishop contacting the person and making sure they understand that. Edited May 11, 2012 by ERayR 1
Recommended Posts