Question About Having Your Name Removed

[Cobalt-70]

Adultery isn't an ordinance either, but it can sure nullify the ordinance that forms the covenant of marriage.

Adultery breaks the covenant, but does not nullify the sealing.

[Storm Rider]

Another question, though. Does removing your name (thus, your baptism and all other ordinances) release you from the covenants you made? (per LDS doctrine, I mean?) Is it like you never made them? Or are you still bound and in sin?

It would be as if those ordinances had never been done; there would be no covenant. However, when there is a person that asks for their name to be removed it would seem that they do not view the covenants made within the Church to have any value. I appreciate your question; it seems that you have moved beyond a shallow understanding of covenants and have concluded that those covenants have nothing to do with the Church and everything to do with your personal relationship with your Father in Heaven/God.

I have always felt it strange that those who fall away somehow think that the covenants they made while being a LDS somehow are only related to the LDS Church; where did God go in the matter? How did that personal covenant lose its personal nature?

Those of us who struggle with the Church can come to many different conclusions; I just don't see how anyone can separate themselves from a personal covenant other than to conclude they no longer want those covenants to be effective in their lives; we break the covenant in other words.

[Cobalt-70]

It would be as if those ordinances had never been done; there would be no covenant.

Having your name removed from a database doesn't change the fact that you made a covenant. Yet sealings and baptisms are more than just a covenant. A covenant is just a promise, and anyone can make a promise with or without the priesthood. The thing that makes sealings and baptisms special is the fact that there has been a priesthood ordinance, and the ordinance is sealed in heaven. Where is the priesthood ritual that accompanies deleting your name from the Church database? How are the contents of the Church's hard drives "sealed in heaven"?

It's clear to me that if you lose your faith, it's as if you hadn't been baptized or sealed, but it seems like the point at which that happens is the moment you lose your faith, not the moment when the church data entry employee presses the "enter" key that removes you from the church roster.

[Libs]

I would think it would be as if you broke those covenants.

Okay, so the covenants are broken, whether you have your name removed or not. The only difference would be, in what you would have to do to re-establish/renew those covenants. If your name is removed, you would have to redo all of your ordinances. If your name is still on the rolls, basically, you would just have to repent and determine to pick up anew and uphold your covenants. Yes? So, there really is no advantage to keeping your name on the Church membership rolls, unless you think you might want to return again, someday.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Libs

[Calm]

Okay, so the covenants are broken, whether you have your name removed or not. The only difference would be, in what you would have to do to re-establish/renew those covenants. If your name is removed, you would have to redo all of your ordinances. If your name is still on the roles, basically, you would just have to repent and determine to pick up anew and uphold your covenants. Yes? So, there really is no advantage to keeping your name on the the Church membership rolls, unless you think you might want to return again, someday.

I think your view is likely the correct one.

There is though, if you think about it, a huge difference between being certain enough to remove your name and not being certain enough, even if all that is keeping you from doing so is just a bit of doubt. Once that line has been crossed, I suspect the mind and heart shuts several doors that I, as a believer of course, think it is better to leave open even if only by a crack so as to prevent the door from being replaced with a wall.

The scriptures talk about what a 'mustard seed' of faith can accomplish. I think the same can be said for a 'mustard seed' of doubt, for both good and ill.

Edited May 13, 2012 by calmoriah

[Libs]

Calmoriah, I agree, about keeping that door open, if even just a crack. I, honestly, don't believe I ever will go back to the church, but there is still a place in my heart for the church, and the spiritual growth that took place there. I have fondness for the some of the things in the LDS Church, like the Book of Mormon and my Temple experiences...actually, the LDS Church was the impetus for a renewed faith in God. I was very agnostic, up and until my exposure to Gordon B. Hinckley and the Church. Removing my name felt kind of like slamming the door on all of that...rejecting it...which I don't, and don't care to..

[Libs]

Btw, Happy Mother's Day, Calmoriah!! Hope you have an nice day!

[Pahoran]

Technically, no. It isn't excommunication.

Yes, in fact it is.

No church court is held.

This is true; the request, once properly verified, is sufficient evidence of the person's apostasy.

Legally, the church can't do that anymore, and they don't.

This particular article of apostate unfaith is false.  Outside of Communist China, I know of no secular state that has the power to "legally" trammel a church's internal procedures regarding its own membership rules.

And it just so happens that if a Priesthood Leader reasonably believes that name removal is being requested to circumvent proper Church discipline, he can either ignore the request and proceed to hold a Disciplinary Council (they haven't been called Church courts for some time now) or else he can annotate the records so that if the person subsequently applies for rebaptism, the Disciplinary Council can be held then.

BTW, I know all about the court decision upon which the article of apostate unfaith is based.  There are several valid reasons why it does not apply to the Church of Jesus Christ, and in fact the ratio decidendi of that case specifically relied upon features of the defendant church's disciplinary procedures that differ significantly from LDS practice.

Moreover, if you send the letter the right place and say the right words, no bishop can contact you to try to change your mind.

That's also false.

It is purely a clerical act.

This is a non sequitur.  The decision is made by Priesthood leaders having the appropriate authority; the same authority, in fact, as is required for excommunication, which is what name removal is and always has been.

Also, how is it that the church's computer database is the "Book of Life"? Does that mean that if the church's computers malfunction, they can unbaptize you or un-seal you? What if the church's computer gets infected with a virus?

Now you're just being flippant.  As you perfectly well know, we are not talking about erroneous data.  We are talking about a properly recorded Priesthood action based upon the proven apostasy of an individual.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Calm]

Btw, Happy Mother's Day, Calmoriah!! Hope you have an nice day!

Thank you. I can't remember if you've mentioned if you have children, but you definitely come across as someone who might on occasion**** take people under her wing, so I will say Happy Mother's Day to you too.

****I suspect much more than occasional.

[Libs]

Thank you, Calmoriah!

I have four children and six (and a half! ) grandchildren. My son and his wife are expecting their first in November!

They are all coming for dinner and should be here shortly.

[mfbukowski]

The point is that I'm asking why the moment you are removed from the "Book of Life" isn't the moment you lose your faith, rather than the moment your record is deleted from a hard drive in the Church central mainframe? And if so, why do we think that "having your name removed" has any actual eternal consequences?

Why do you think the ordinances have any effect if the removal of whatever they do have no consequences?

Edited May 13, 2012 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

But having your name deleted from a database is not an ordinance, nor is the act of writing and sending a letter to church headquarters. How can a non-ordinance nullify a priesthood ordinance that was bound and sealed in heaven?

Ordinances are not "magic words". They are tokens of covenants being made. When covenants are broken, they are broken. If the people involved have no regard for the promises, why should one one do an ordinance for no purpose? What would that ordinance be a token of? A broken promise?

It appears that you think that more magic words need to be said to symbolize the abandonment of the contract. Why?

[mfbukowski]

Excommunication is a clerical act as well, but the most dire result is that you are barred from taking the Sacrament (i.e., the "Communion"). Moreover, your name is not actually taken off the records of the church. So I don't think they are quite the same thing.

Same results- so how is it different? Non-members do not take the sacrament either if it means nothing to them, and the rest is a "clerical action"- remember that?

[zerinus]

I know as a practical matter, having your name removed from the church's roles is treated the same as excommunication, but where is the doctrinal or theoretical basis for that?

The theological basis is that in scripture, excommunication is defined as name removal. To be excommunicated is defined as having your name removed from Church records:

D&C 20:

83 And also, if any have been expelled [i.e. excommunicated] from the church, so that their names may be blotted out of the general church record of names.

How can a clerical act of taking someone's name out of a database have eternal consequences?

Because it is more than just a clerical act. The clerk cannot, and does not have the power to remove anybody’s name from Church records willy-nilly. It can only be done when the right ecclesiastical authority makes a decision to do so—meaning by the exercise of priesthood keys—thus bringing about the excommunication of the individual, with all that it entails.

When they remove your name, it's not like they draw a witches circle and burn your effigy inside--they just take your name off of a list. Can a clerical act loose what was bound in heaven by a priesthood ordinance?

If it was just a clerical act, no; but since it isn't, as explained above, it can.

Technically, no. It isn't excommunication. . . .

It is. Excommunication is defined as “name removal”. Whether that “name removal” is done unilaterally by the Church, through an act of excommunication; or bilaterally at the request of a Church member, the effect is the same. The person is no longer officially a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and therefore not entitled to any of its privileges.

Also, how is it that the church's computer database is the "Book of Life"? Does that mean that if the church's computers malfunction, they can unbaptize you or un-seal you? What if the church's computer gets infected with a virus?

No. Name removal when effected by appropriate ecclesiastical authority, is more than just a clerical act. See above.

So that's the heart of the matter: the First Presidency "receives a letter." But they don't shake the dust off their shoes, they don't make a voodoo doll and stick pins into it, and they don't burn the member's effigy. What began with a solemn priesthood ordinance is seemingly erased (or is it really?) through the U.S. Postal Service and a few key strokes on a computer. There is no "ordinance" at the end. You can reject your baptism and lose your faith, certainly, but what does that have to do with the physical process of deleting bits off a hard drive?

Name removal is effectively an ordinance. It is effected through the exercise of priesthood keys, and it is therefore binding on earth as well as in heaven.

Isn't it really just the loss of faith that marks one's removal from the Book of Life?

No; the ordinance or the exercise of keys also matters. If that argument was valid, you could argue as the Protestants do, that baptism is not required for salvation either. Faith is all that is required. But God has revealed that that is not enough. The physical ordinance is also required.

The point is that I'm asking why the moment you are removed from the "Book of Life" isn't the moment you lose your faith, rather than the moment your record is deleted from a hard drive in the Church central mainframe?

For the same reason that the moment you become a member of the church and kingdom of God is not the moment you “believe,” but the moment when you are baptized.

And if so, why do we think that "having your name removed" has any actual eternal consequences?

For the same reason that being baptized has eternal consequence.

But having your name deleted from a database is not an ordinance, nor is the act of writing and sending a letter to church headquarters. How can a non-ordinance nullify a priesthood ordinance that was bound and sealed in heaven?

Because it is an ordinance, as explained above.

Excommunication is a clerical act as well, but the most dire result is that you are barred from taking the Sacrament (i.e., the "Communion"). Moreover, your name is not actually taken off the records of the church. So I don't think they are quite the same thing.

Excommunicated members are encouraged to attend Church, and work towards repentance; but their losses are more than just being denied the Sacrament. They lose all the blessings of membership—until those blessings are restored to them following rebaptism.

Having your name removed from a database doesn't change the fact that you made a covenant. Yet sealings and baptisms are more than just a covenant. A covenant is just a promise, and anyone can make a promise with or without the priesthood. The thing that makes sealings and baptisms special is the fact that there has been a priesthood ordinance, and the ordinance is sealed in heaven. Where is the priesthood ritual that accompanies deleting your name from the Church database? How are the contents of the Church's hard drives "sealed in heaven"?

It is done through the exercise of priesthood keys, therefore it is every bit as much an ordinance as anything else is. We just don’t tend to think of it in those terms.

It's clear to me that if you lose your faith, it's as if you hadn't been baptized or sealed, but it seems like the point at which that happens is the moment you lose your faith, not the moment when the church data entry employee presses the "enter" key that removes you from the church roster.

Already answered, see above.

Edited May 13, 2012 by zerinus

[CV75]

(Jumping in late).

Sometimes the priesthood is taken away from a man without it being reflected it in his Church record (D&C 121:7). Unless the man repents, the records on earth and in heaven will not agree in his favor. On the same basis, I would think that membership can be taken away by the laws and in the records of heaven without it being reflected in the records of the Church (a scenario like Matthew 25: 31-46 comes to mind; “When took I my name off thy record?”).

I would also think that a record of his once having priesthood / membership and then having it taken away is recorded somewhere “up there” as well, so the “active file” record may be expunged of his priesthood/membership status but the “historical file” still shows that the priesthood was once conferred upon him, and membership gate (baptism, confirmation) was once opened and entered into. The same would seem to take place in the Church record keeping system—both individual “active” and “historical” records list the milestone ordinances and also the decisions made by leadership and the member relative to his membership status (excommunication and name removal, respectively). All the books are opened on Judgment Day to square them up with Heaven’s.

[Lightbearer]

If you have your name removed from the records of the church, does that undo all temple sealings baptisms etc, sort of like an excommunication?

YES. It is practically the same thing. In fact I had an inactive member tell me that he wanted his name removed and so I told the bishop. When the bishop contacted him and told him what that meant (excommunication) he said he did not want his name removed. There is some scriptural reference for this:

"For the hearts of many were hardened, and their names were blotted out, that they were remembered no more among the people of God. And also many withdrew themselves from among them." (Book of Mormon | Alma 1:24)

Compare with the following:

"And they were strict to observe that there should be no iniquity among them; and whoso was found to commit iniquity, and three witnesses of the church did condemn them before the elders, and if they repented not, and confessed not, their names were blotted out, and they were not numbered among the people of Christ." (Book of Mormon | Moroni 6:7)

So from these I gather that if you have your name blotted out it is essentailly the same as being excommunicated.

[Lightbearer]

The point is that I'm asking why the moment you are removed from the "Book of Life" isn't the moment you lose your faith, rather than the moment your record is deleted from a hard drive in the Church central mainframe? And if so, why do we think that "having your name removed" has any actual eternal consequences?

Actually it has eternal consequences because of the following:

"And further, I want you to remember that John the Revelator was contemplating this very subject in relation to the dead, when he declared, as you will find recorded in Revelation 20:12—And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. You will discover in this quotation that the books were opened; and another book was opened, which was the book of life; but the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works; consequently, the books spoken of must be the books which contained the record of their works, and refer to the records which are kept on the earth. And the book which was the book of life is the record which is kept in heaven; the principle agreeing precisely with the doctrine which is commanded you in the revelation contained in the letter which I wrote to you previous to my leaving my place—that in all your recordings it may be recorded in heaven. Now, the nature of this ordinance consists in the power of the priesthood, by the revelation of Jesus Christ, wherein it is granted that whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Or, in other words, taking a different view of the translation, whatsoever you record on earth shall be recorded in heaven, and whatsoever you do not record on earth shall not be recorded in heaven; for out of the books shall your dead be judged, according to their own works, whether they themselves have attended to the ordinances in their own propria persona, or by the means of their own agents, according to the ordinance which God has prepared for their salvation from before the foundation of the world, according to the records which they have kept concerning their dead."

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 128:6 - 8)

So these records are vital and are important to be accurate, at least according to modern revelation.

[Damien the Leper]

If you have your name removed from the records of the church, does that undo all temple sealings baptisms etc, sort of like an excommunication?

Yes. You will lose everything.

It was, for me, a necessary sacrifice in order to find peace with the Savior. I do NOT mean that others should do as I did. It was a difficult decision that will have it's consequences. I've had to deal with some thus far. But I have no regrets.

[mfbukowski]

Yes. You will lose everything.

It was, for me, a necessary sacrifice in order to find peace with the Savior. I do NOT mean that others should do as I did. It was a difficult decision that will have it's consequences. I've had to deal with some thus far. But I have no regrets.

But the point is, if you don't believe it, what difference does it make to you?

The Catholic Church has a kind of "self-excommunication" which occurs when you leave the church and are baptized into another church. I have self-excommunicated myself from that church, and all the sacraments I received there are now null and void.

But guess what? The reason I left was that I didn't believe they were "valid" in the first place! So if one has his name removed- it should make no difference to them whatsoever, imo.

[Cobalt-70]

Ordinances are not "magic words". They are tokens of covenants being made. When covenants are broken, they are broken. If the people involved have no regard for the promises, why should one one do an ordinance for no purpose? What would that ordinance be a token of? A broken promise?

It appears that you think that more magic words need to be said to symbolize the abandonment of the contract. Why?

I don't think that magic words need to be said when someone's name is removed from the church rolls. I'm just wondering by what mechanism a clerical action nullifies an ordinance that was sealed in heaven. Why is it that the second prior to the instant when a data entry person presses the "enter" key to delete your name from the church rolls, you can enter the kingdom of heaven merely by renewing your faith, but the second after that "enter" key is pressed, you can only enter the kingdom of Heaven through rebaptism?

Also, baptism is not merely a covenant. It is the sign of a covenant between the individual and God (not the church), which is sealed in heaven. If the covenant is broken, why is the baptism not rescinded at the moment the covenant is broken? Why does the rescission have to wait until some data entry person in Salt Lake City presses an "enter" key?

[Storm Rider]

I don't think that magic words need to be said when someone's name is removed from the church rolls. I'm just wondering by what mechanism a clerical action nullifies an ordinance that was sealed in heaven. Why is it that the second prior to the instant when a data entry person presses the "enter" key to delete your name from the church rolls, you can enter the kingdom of heaven merely by renewing your faith, but the second after that "enter" key is pressed, you can only enter the kingdom of Heaven through rebaptism?

Also, baptism is not merely a covenant. It is the sign of a covenant between the individual and God (not the church), which is sealed in heaven. If the covenant is broken, why is the baptism not rescinded at the moment the covenant is broken? Why does the rescission have to wait until some data entry person in Salt Lake City presses an "enter" key?

Do you have any reference for your position that the Church of Christ plays no part in salvation or specifically the covenant being made? Also, could yo differentiate for me your views on the Kingdom of God and the Church of Christ? Just curious.

[Log]

Do you have any reference for your position that the Church of Christ plays no part in salvation or specifically the covenant being made?

Cobalt-70 is correct on this point - the covenant is made in the Spirit and is not administered by the Church. Throughout the Book of Mormon, baptism - administered by the priests of the Church - is simply a public witness of that covenant, and is the first fruit thereof.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Log

[Storm Rider]

Cobalt-70 is correct on this point - the covenant is made in the Spirit and is not administered by the Church. Throughout the Book of Mormon, baptism - administered by the priests of the Church - is simply a public witness of that covenant, and is the first fruit thereof.

Are you saying that baptism is not an ordinance? It is simply an outward profession of a personal choice?

[Cobalt-70]

Actually it has eternal consequences because of the following:

So these records are vital and are important to be accurate, at least according to modern revelation.

Smith's letter did not, however, say that whatsoever is erased from the church's records is erased in heaven. Even if it did, the record of your baptism is not actually erased. It is still kept in the church records, along with your membership record in a dormant state. All that the name removal and excommunication do is make an annotation on your membership record that you are no longer a member. If you come back to the church, your official baptism date will be listed as your original baptism date, not your rebaptism date (link). So the record of your baptism is not "unwritten" on earth.

[Log]

Are you saying that baptism is not an ordinance?

No; it is an ordinance.

It is simply an outward profession of a personal choice?

It is done as a public witness that you have entered into a covenant of obedience with God.

In my profile, I have linked to a few papers which explain these things in detail; I commend them to you.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Log