Thoughts On Church History, Theology, And Faith Crisis

[CV75]

(in my opinion none of us expend our very own best effort..... each of us could always do more.)

I have many examples where I have expened my own best effort--did what I could with what I had (in faith), and received grace in return. Grace comes a bit at a time (D&C 93: 12, 13, 20; John 1:16).

[DBMormon]

OK, fine. Your entitled to your opinion. Interesting that it contradicts the statements of apostles. But now we have wandered far afield from the OP, as threads tend to do.

It's always easy to come up with reasons to be "troubled", or that "cause me to question", or whatever cliche you choose. But it's a lot more profitable to come up with reasons to be inspired, to be drawn closer to God, and to believe. And in my experience, those reasons are just as easy to find.

do you expend your best efforts? I would love to know someone other then Christ who has... "none are righteous... no not one"

Also this has nothing to do with the struggle I have had. In my opinion it is obvious there are some Latterday Saints who see WORKS as tied into Slvation from the angle that they contribute or merit at least in part our exhaltation. They do not. They simply are required becasue they provide a platform by which we can be sactified or transform through the mighty change. They are nessacary for that purpose but are not suffcient. Christ's Grace on the other hand is suffcient. at the Sacrament each week you promise to be WILLING to keep the commandments, Mosiah 18 WILLING to mourn with those that mourn, Moroni 10:32 deny all ungodliness is a process or journey not a momentary experience like a snap of the finger. We become perfect in Christ by yokeing with him and borrowing his perfection. And Contrary to some opinions I have heard from Latter Day Saints - It is impossible to become perfect in this life.

Grace and Mercy are the two most important factors in the Doctrine of Christ.... and the most misunderstood principles among LDS members and leaders. - by that I mean you get quotes from both ends of the spectrum on works having merit.... they do not. Read Elder Hollands Testimony on "The only true god" He hits it right on the head only through the merits, mercy and everlasting grace of Christ.

The law is not designed for you to perfect yourself... but rather to fail and see your weaknesses and realize you can't do all you can do and turn to Christ who can and takes your weaknesses and makes them strengths.

Ether 12:27

Helamen 3:35

Moroni 10:33

2nd Nephi 31 (doctrine of Christ) especially verses 19-21

Alma 5 - mighty chnge

Alma 32 - Faith and moving forward - willingness

2nd Corinthians 12:9

ect... ect.....

Edited April 18, 2012 by reelmormon

[DBMormon]

I have many examples where I have expened my own best effort--did what I could with what I had (in faith), and received grace in return. Grace comes a bit at a time (D&C 93: 12, 13, 20; John 1:16).

saved by grace as spoken of in this context is not individual moments where you recieve grace for this or grace for that. If you want to say when it came to moments in your life that you did all you can do... fine but as a whole you have never done all you can do. Salvation after all you can do is not speaking of the three or 100 times you did all you could do. It is describing salvation which is the overall journey and your the gift at the end.

grace added to grace is true but not what is being spoken of here. When it is speaking of overall salvation (which in this sense is the same as exhaltation see Elder McConke "what think ye of salvation by grace") it is also speking of the overall way in which one is saved... not a moment here or there where you did all you could

[shalamabobbi]

(in my opinion none of us expend our very own best effort..... each of us could always do more.)

Not unless you are comparing our individual best efforts with a Platonic generalization of "best effort" that is applied to everyone.

I could have done more (in theory) but not really because that was my best effort..

I think the answer to this question is obvious in the voice of our conscience. We feel guilty when we deserve it by our own self-judgement. We feel good about ourselves when we are happy with our efforts/accomplishments. To constantly beat ourselves up with the psychotic "I could have done more" hardly seems to be the aim of loving heavenly parents anymore than just maintaining the status quo without any progress would be the aim of loving grace.

If the reward of the atonement is looked upon merely as something bestowed its value is greatly diminished (as money or material objects or the power of rule can be bestowed), but if looked upon as something earned not capable of bestowel it is greatly enlarged (as education or oil in the lamp cannot be bestowed).

Edit to add:

Real value lies in those things that cannot be bestowed. Self-mastery cannot be bestowed. But grace and forgiveness are necessary to erase the mistakes along the way to attaining it.

Also implied in this topic is the concept of agency. A mind free from damage from chemical substances/alcohol is something that cannot be bestowed. It has to be earned with the correct use of individual agency. The concept of grace alone without works nullifies the significance of individual agency and removes meaning from our existence.

The choice of individual agency has far ranging application from choosing to love and forgive one another vs acting with revenge or judging and condemning, to idling away our time in front of the TV vs being of service in be-friending and helping someone or some form of personal improvement. None of this can be bestowed without the violation of agency. Hence we are accountable for our works. Grace does not remove accountability. Grace allows us to learn from past mistakes and move on. Grace allows us to forgive not just others but most importantly ourselves. If you would be forgiven, learn to forgive others and one day you will be generous enough to include yourself along with the rest of humanity.

Edited April 18, 2012 by shalamabobbi

[why me]

The law is not designed for you to perfect yourself... but rather to fail and see your weaknesses and realize you can't do all you can do and turn to Christ who can and takes your weaknesses and makes them strengths.

I think that you are missing the point. I think that there are many christians who believe that no matter what they do, they will be saved through Christ's mercy. But I believe that they could be mistaken. There is very little reason to improve oneself if one is saved through mercy and not a combination of mercy and works and the attempt to choose the right. And I say attempt. Christ will not accept someone's weakness to beat his wife and turn it into a strength. But He would expect the wife beater to recognize his wrongs and attempt to correct it. And yes, if that person really wishes to change, He will help them to do so and turn that former weakness into a strength.

Now that makes more sense than attempting to make the beating into a strength without the beater changing his ways.

Edited April 18, 2012 by why me

[why me]

Reelmormon, here are some interesting quotations about mercy:

"Each of us is under a divinely spoken obligation to reach out with pardon and mercy and to forgive one another. There is a great need for this Christlike attribute in our families, in our marriages, in our wards and stakes, in our communities, and in our nations. We will receive the joy of forgiveness in our own lives when we are willing to extend that joy freely to others. Lip service is not enough. We need to purge our hearts and minds of feelings and thoughts of bitterness and let the light and the love of Christ enter in. As a result, the Spirit of the Lord will fill our souls with the joy accompanying divine peace of conscience."

--Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf, "Point of Safe Return", May 2007 Ensign

"This life is not so much a time for getting and accumulating as it is a time for giving and becoming. Mortality is the battlefield upon which justice and mercy meet. But they need not meet as adversaries, for they are reconciled in the Atonement of Jesus Christ for all who wisely use Today."

--Lance B. Wickman, "Today", Ensign, May 2008, 103–5

"It is indeed remarkable that the nature of our dealings with our fellowmen will determine, in large measure, our status in the kingdom of heaven....We may attend to rites and rituals and yet overlook the weightier matters such as brotherly kindness, honesty, mercy, virtue, and integrity. Let us never forget that if we omit them from our lives we may be found unworthy to come into His presence."

--Mark E. Petersen, "Do Unto Others", Ensign, May 1977, 73

"Essential to receiving divine forgiveness are personal, individual recognition and acceptance of our Father's mercy, made available to us by the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ and a renewed covenant to obey the principles of the gospel."

--Ronald E. Poelman, "Divine Forgiveness", Ensign, Nov. 1993, 84

"Ever keep in exercise the principle of mercy, and be ready to forgive our brother on the first intimations of repentance, and asking forgiveness; and should we even forgive our brother, or even our enemy, before he repent or ask forgiveness, our heavenly Father would be equally as merciful unto us."

--The Prophet Joseph Smith, "Forgiveness", History of the Church, 3:383.

"In truth, we "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." We are all in need of mercy. In that last day when we are called to the judgment bar of God, do we not hope that our many imperfections will be forgiven? Do we not yearn to feel the Savior's embrace? It seems only right and proper that we extend to others that which we so earnestly desire for ourselves."

--Dieter F. Uchtdorf, "You Are My Hands", Ensign May 2010, 68–70, 75

http://www.readthesc...ercy_quote.ashx

I believe that this is a more pro-lds site. You can search this site and not the antimormon sites.

Edited April 18, 2012 by why me

[why me]

saved by grace as spoken of in this context is not individual moments where you recieve grace for this or grace for that. If you want to say when it came to moments in your life that you did all you can do... fine but as a whole you have never done all you can do.

I am not sure about this. Someone who is cruel, mean, bullying, unloving, uncaring toward human beings and other species may not deserve mercy if they do not attempt to change their ways. I don't think that god will be mocked. Do you think that such a person deserves god's mercy if they mocked god and did harmful things to his children? And never attempted to change their ways even though they knew that it was wrong?

[Benjamin McGuire]

reelmormon - below my comments, I reproduce one of your recent posts. It was easy to find the source. The first three of your comments can be found (with the text formatting and hyperlinks intact) at this anti-Mormon website:

http://www.leaderu.c...ation-refs.html

Most of the rest of your post was lifted from an article on the MRM site written by Aaron Shafovaloff, another anti-Mormon writer:

http://www.mrm.org/2...tnote13_f4g2oah

Now, tell me again, how I am wrong in my assessment of you?

• Spencer W. Kimball states: "however powerful the saving grace of Christ, it brings exaltation to no man who does not comply with the works of the gospel" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, pg. 207); "Each command we obey sends us another rung up the ladder to perfected manhood and toward godhood; and every law disobeyed is a sliding toward the bottom where man merges into the brute world" (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, pg. 153); "living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation...trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentence when one merely tries to abandon sin" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.164-165, 354-355).
  

• Keeping the whole law: "To enter the celestial [kingdom] and obtain exaltation, it is necessary that the whole law be kept...Do you desire to enter the celestial Kingdom and receive eternal life? Then be willing to keep all of the commandments" (Joseph Fielding Smith, in The Way to Perfection, p.206).
  

• James Talmage explains: "...redemption from personal sins can only be obtained through obedience to the requirement of the Gospel, and a life of good works" (James Talmage, in A Study of the Articles of Faith).
  

Through the atonement of Christ all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Salvation is twofold: General—that which comes to all men irrespective of belief (in this life) in Christ—and, Individual—that which man merits through his own acts through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. - Doctrines of Salvation - In a section where he explains blood atonement.

Marion G Romney -

"The truth is that we are saved by grace only after all we ourselves can do. (See 2 Ne. 25:23.) There will be no government dole which can get us through the pearly gates. Nor will anybody go into the celestial kingdom who wants to go there on the works of someone else. Every man must go through on his own merits. We might just as well learn this here and now."

13

- (should be Christ's merits)

"All of us have sinned and need to repent to fully pay our part of the debt. When we sincerely repent, the Savior’s magnificent Atonement pays the rest of that debt. - JAmes E Faust (we do not pay any of the debt, Christ paid the whole price. I know what he meant but bad choice of wording)

"For," said this prophet, "we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23.) Truly we are redeemed by the atoning blood of the Savior of the world, but only after each has done all he can to work out his own salvation - (none of us truly do all we can, he is right we must be willing and move forward and while we are asked to do all we can, the all we can do is not nessacary to specifically save us, only to contribute to sactifying us or changing our heart - Alma ch 5)

Edited April 18, 2012 by Benjamin McGuire

[Buzzard]

do you expend your best efforts? I would love to know someone other then Christ who has... "none are righteous... no not one"

Also this has nothing to do with the struggle I have had. In my opinion it is obvious there are some Latterday Saints who see WORKS as tied into Slvation from the angle that they contribute or merit at least in part our exhaltation. They do not. They simply are required becasue they provide a platform by which we can be sactified or transform through the mighty change. They are nessacary for that purpose but are not suffcient. Christ's Grace on the other hand is suffcient. at the Sacrament each week you promise to be WILLING to keep the commandments, Mosiah 18 WILLING to mourn with those that mourn, Moroni 10:32 deny all ungodliness is a process or journey not a momentary experience like a snap of the finger. We become perfect in Christ by yokeing with him and borrowing his perfection. And Contrary to some opinions I have heard from Latter Day Saints - It is impossible to become perfect in this life.

Grace and Mercy are the two most important factors in the Doctrine of Christ.... and the most misunderstood principles among LDS members and leaders. - by that I mean you get quotes from both ends of the spectrum on works having merit.... they do not. Read Elder Hollands Testimony on "The only true god" He hits it right on the head only through the merits, mercy and everlasting grace of Christ.

The law is not designed for you to perfect yourself... but rather to fail and see your weaknesses and realize you can't do all you can do and turn to Christ who can and takes your weaknesses and makes them strengths.

Ether 12:27

Helamen 3:35

Moroni 10:33

2nd Nephi 31 (doctrine of Christ) especially verses 19-21

Alma 5 - mighty chnge

Alma 32 - Faith and moving forward - willingness

2nd Corinthians 12:9

ect... ect.....

Well, of course I don't. But I try. And when I goof up, I try to do better. It just seems like some people are determined to find problems. Having questions is no problem, we have all had questions. But doing nothing but questioning, and then finding reasons not to like the answers, is the road to apostacy for many. I am reminded of one of C.S. Lewis's books, not as well known as some of his others, called "The Great Divorce". One of the stories in it is of a cleric who refuses heaven because there are only answers there, not more questions. At the risk of a PG-13 rating, I paraphrase his angelic guide in stating that such inquires have no more to do with salvation than masturbation has to do with marriage.

[why me]

reelmormon - below my comments, I reproduce one of your recent posts. It was easy to find the source. The first three of your comments can be found (with the text formatting and hyperlinks intact) at this anti-Mormon website:

http://www.leaderu.c...ation-refs.html

Most of the rest of your post was lifted from an article on the MRM site written by Aaron Shafovaloff, another anti-Mormon writer:

http://www.mrm.org/2...tnote13_f4g2oah

Now, tell me again, how I am wrong in my assessment of you?

I tried to find his source but could not do so. I knew that he picked them off from an antimormon website. They were too organized. As I told him, he has immersed himself in antilds literature. I don't think that this is his fault. Obviously, he is gripped by such sites. Now it just becomes a question of if he wants to see the other side to help himself see it a little differently or if he wishes just to cause a little trouble here. I think that many have attempted to engage him in conversation but it seems that nothing that we say has any effect. He just brings up another issue without engaging what we told him.

[wenglund]

(in my opinion none of us expend our very own best effort..... each of us could always do more.)

I think you are viewing the quotes through a fundamentalist lens, and to me it is this fundamentalist lens, and not the so-called "warts" of Church history, that tends to be the "reel" cause of members' crisis or tests of faith--as well it should be (it is intended that members mature beyond fundamentalism, which was necessary during the formative stages of their spiritual development, to become spiritually adults, and able to grasp nuances and properly handle ambiguity and the vast gray area of life).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 18, 2012 by wenglund

[Buzzard]

reelmormon - below my comments, I reproduce one of your recent posts. It was easy to find the source. The first three of your comments can be found (with the text formatting and hyperlinks intact) at this anti-Mormon website:

http://www.leaderu.c...ation-refs.html

Most of the rest of your post was lifted from an article on the MRM site written by Aaron Shafovaloff, another anti-Mormon writer:

http://www.mrm.org/2...tnote13_f4g2oah

Now, tell me again, how I am wrong in my assessment of you?

Busted!!

[CV75]

Salvation after all you can do is not speaking of the three or 100 times you did all you could do. It is describing salvation which is the overall journey and your the gift at the end.

It most certainly is. There are degrees of salvation, as evidenced by the “overall journey” and the “gift at the end”. But I see you’ve been busted so I guess it isn’t necessary to go on.

[Buzzard]

So, what's the over/under that reelmormon doesn't come back on this thread?

[Log]

Wow, bro, you win - if making it so people don't come back is the game you're playing. Negative rep point for that.

[Buzzard]

Wow, bro, you win - if making it so people don't come back is the game you're playing. Negative rep point for that.

If you are referring to me, I certainly was not playing a game. Was not even one of the major contributors to this thread. But it's hard not to notice that when people were answering his "questions", reelmormon was responding quickly. But when the game he was playing was brought into the open, suddenly he seems to be busy somewhere else.

If you were referring to someone else, my point still stands.

[wenglund]

Wow, bro, you win - if making it so people don't come back is the game you're playing. Negative rep point for that.

I think you may have mistaken who is playing games and what game is being played.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Log]

Buzzard: Yes, you.

Wade: what game do you think is being played?

Do you really think Reelmormon came in here to say "Gotcha! The church is false because of all this historical crap I dug up off an anti site!"?

Edited April 18, 2012 by Log

[DBMormon]

So, what's the over/under that reelmormon doesn't come back on this thread?

I knew what quotes I wanted and On those sites they were all in one place. My brother in Christ, I am not your enemy nor am I an atim mormon, but when you type salvation grace works lds in Google those are the sites that come up. If there was a LDS site that would have appeared then I would have used that.... now does where I find the quotes matter? Does that change whether the quote was said???

[DBMormon]

I think you are viewing the quotes through a fundamentalist lens, and to me it is this fundamentalist lens, and not the so-called "warts" of Church history, that tends to be the "reel" cause of members' crisis or tests of faith--as well it should be (it is intended that members mature beyond fundamentalism, which was necessary during the formative stages of their spiritual development, to become spiritually adults, and able to grasp nuances and properly handle ambiguity and the vast gray area of life).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

The church teaches the gospel in a fundamental Manner. Perhaps that is why People set up that paradigm for some reason. If you folks knew me, you wouldn't talk to me the way you have or mock my name in your post Mr. Englund. I am an active LDS who has a testimony. I have and continue to serve the church in a major way. I am an unprofitable servant, do not get me wrong, but I am no anti-mormon troll either.

In fact I started by looking for Elder Fausts quote and the LDS site wasn't on the first page. I only knew the subject matter of the sentence and not the talk's name. So you would rather address where the qquote was found rather then it's substance?

I have not once mocked any individual among you. I have as a whole used some saracasm because your mode of addressing my question is not answering my questions at all. So the ball is in your court but I certainly would appreciate you at least treating me as your brother in Christ and stop trying to solve the problem by making me the enemy.

[Log]

Does where I find the quotes matter? Does that change whether the quote was said???

To answer that rhetorical question: No, it does not matter where you found the quotes.

Here's a fun fact. Around 9 or 10 years ago, I had an issue about an historical matter. I wrote to Hugh Nibley about it, and, when his response was unhelpful, I went to Dan Peterson about it. He did not waste my time by telling me I was too rigid, or that I had swallowed someone else's narrative, or that I wasn't thinking for myself, or that I was obviously playing games by citing material from an anti's work. He pointed me towards someone who knew more than he did on the topic in question, and I was answered fully by that person, with neither scorn nor upbraiding.

I wish I saw more of that in this thread.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Log

[DBMormon]

OK, fine. Your entitled to your opinion. Interesting that it contradicts the statements of apostles. But now we have wandered far afield from the OP, as threads tend to do.

It's always easy to come up with reasons to be "troubled", or that "cause me to question", or whatever cliche you choose. But it's a lot more profitable to come up with reasons to be inspired, to be drawn closer to God, and to believe. And in my experience, those reasons are just as easy to find.

by the way, the way we address Grace was part of the orignal post ... see my second post right under it.

[DBMormon]

I think that you are missing the point. I think that there are many christians who believe that no matter what they do, they will be saved through Christ's mercy. But I believe that they could be mistaken. There is very little reason to improve oneself if one is saved through mercy and not a combination of mercy and works and the attempt to choose the right. And I say attempt. Christ will not accept someone's weakness to beat his wife and turn it into a strength. But He would expect the wife beater to recognize his wrongs and attempt to correct it. And yes, if that person really wishes to change, He will help them to do so and turn that former weakness into a strength.

Now that makes more sense than attempting to make the beating into a strength without the beater changing his ways.

I think the Lord has power to transform us once we are humble and willing to follow him regardless of our own best efforts to fix any problem. I am not advocating saved by grace alone, but Absolutley no salvation by any amount of your own merits, only the merits of Christ

[why me]

I knew what quotes I wanted and On those sites they were all in one place. My brother in Christ, I am not your enemy nor am I an atim mormon, but when you type salvation grace works lds in Google those are the sites that come up. If there was a LDS site that would have appeared then I would have used that.... now does where I find the quotes matter? Does that change whether the quote was said???

I also googled and got different quotations from an lds site. You could have done the same. Here are the quotations for mercy:

http://www.readthescriptures.com/Mercy_quote.ashx

If you sleep with the bedbugs you will get bit. That is just the way it is. You are cruising anti sites trying to find information and then using the arguments there for your posts here. You are also not listening to what the lds are saying to you. At least that is my impression. Here is a good quotation on grace:

"In all our forgiving and seeking forgiveness, we must recognize that, despite whatever restitution we may be capable of providing or receiving, our efforts and those of others are woefully insufficient to meet the demands of eternal justice. How, then, is true forgiveness possible? Paul, in speaking to the Ephesians, wrote that it is in Christ that "we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace" (Eph. 1:7)."

--Cecil O. Samuelson Jr, "Words of Jesus: Forgiveness", Ensign, Feb. 2003, 48

[DBMormon]

To answer that rhetorical question: No, it does not matter where you found the quotes.

Here's a fun fact. Around 9 or 10 years ago, I had an issue about an historical matter. I wrote to Hugh Nibley about it, and, when his response was unhelpful, I went to Dan Peterson about it. He did not waste my time by telling me I was too rigid, or that I had swallowed someone else's narrative, or that I wasn't thinking for myself, or that I was obviously playing games by citing material from an anti's work. He pointed me towards someone who knew more than he did on the topic in question, and I was answered fully by that person, with neither scorn nor upbraiding.

I wish I saw more of that in this thread.

Thanks again Log, I again appreciate your empathy. Dan Peterson is not the only one. Richard Bushman, Teryl Givens, and many other "experts" seem to address this kind of thing with empathy. It is what these folks are looking for. Again the kinderhook plates do not bother me, nor adam god, nor blacks and PH, nor Seer Stones, but rather how we address our history and the way in which we teach authority and being looked down upon for questioning.... I didn't know have a struggle of faith was a sin, but it gets treated that way here!