Did The Hail Come?

[inquiringmind]

Joseph Smith said "pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land." (History of the Church, Vol. 1, pp. 315-316)

I'm sure there were food shortages during the Civil War, I know there were epidemics of cholera and small pox in the 19th century, and then there was the 1906 San Francisco earthquake-- but were there any lethal hail storms in the United States?

[Calm]

People and livestock have been killed by hail. What level of lethalness is required do you believe to meet the standard of the prophecy.

[inquiringmind]

People and livestock have been killed by hail. What level of lethalness is required do you believe to meet the standard of the prophecy.

I can't find any information on any lethal hail storms that hit America in the 19th or early 20th century.

Do you have any?

[thesometimesaint]

Thankfully no one was killed.

http://safeamerica.org/blog/?p=120

[3DOP]

Hi inquiring mind.

It seems like the prophecy could easily be read so as to mean that God would use a variety of natural disasters in a variety of ways to diminish evil. Besides being lethal, the fear that such events bring may suffice to cause some to repent, and in this way, the wicked generation is swept away. Additionally, so understood, It could be an argument for why natural disasters, fearful and terrible as they often are, are tools for good in God's overall design.

[zerinus]

Joseph Smith said "pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land." (History of the Church, Vol. 1, pp. 315-316)

I'm sure there were food shortages during the Civil War, I know there were epidemics of cholera and small pox in the 19th century, and then there was the 1906 San Francisco earthquake-- but were there any lethal hail storms in the United States?

I don't think that that prophecy refers exclusively to the generation in which Joseph lived. There are many such predictions about the future in scripture:

Matthew 24:

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Mark 13:

7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

Luke 21:

9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Mormon 8:

29 Yea, it [book of Mormon] shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;

30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.

31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.

D&C 45:

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

32 But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die.

33 And there shall be earthquakes also in divers places, and many desolations; yet men will harden their hearts against me, and they will take up the sword, one against another, and they will kill one another.

34 And now, when I the Lord had spoken these words unto my disciples, they were troubled.

35 And I said unto them: Be not troubled, for, when all these things shall come to pass, ye may know that the promises which have been made unto you shall be fulfilled.

36 And when the light shall begin to break forth, it shall be with them like unto a parable which I will show you—

JS-Matthew 1:

28 And they shall hear of wars, and rumors of wars.

29 Behold I speak for mine elect's sake; for nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

30 And again, because iniquity shall abound, the love of men shall wax cold; but he that shall not be overcome, the same shall be saved.

31 And again, this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come, or the destruction of the wicked;

If you are looking for prophecies that mention "hail" in particular, there is also plenty of that, especially in Old Testament prophecy.

Edited February 20, 2012 by zerinus

[Storm Rider]

I found this article that talks about some of the deaths in the USA, but there are been much more significant numbers in other parts of the world. Animals have fared much worse and hundreds have been killed in the USA.

[Duncan]

I don't know why it has to be the United States, it says "the land" not "this land"-could be Mexico, could be Canada, could be Guatemala

Check this out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_costly_or_deadly_hailstorms

there is a place on there that I will refrain from making any snide remarks and will bite my tongue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited February 20, 2012 by Duncan

[LeSellers]

The "Tri-State tornado" was the worst tornado in U.S. history. This storm first struck southeast Missouri at 1300 hr, 1925 March 18, and rushed, at ~65 mph, northeast to Illinois and Indiana, crossing three states. The F-5 storm was a quarter to three-quarters of a mile across. Over three hours, it moved 219 miles, killed ~690 people and injured another ~2,000. Damages were something like $1,800,000,000, in real money, not the garbage we pass among ourselves today.

Tornadoes seem to be preceded by hail storms, although, in this case, no mention of hail. per se, made the records. I imagine the hail was trivial in comparison with the wind.

There have been ten or more tornadoes of nearly this size, most recently the Joplin, MO, which we all remember. Others, though, happened in 1840, '96, '99, 1908, two each in '36 and '53, and in '47. The 1840 Louisiana/Mississippi monster cannot even be estimated as to its "F" number, the rest were F5s or F4s. All killed 100 or more, and did untold damage.

Again, hail is a near universal accompaniment to a tornado (although it appears on its own—meteorological conditions for both are almost identical).

Lehi

Edited February 20, 2012 by LeSellers

[zerinus]

The largest hailstone, and the largest snowflake.

[wenglund]

Since all things are spiritual unto God, I don't know if it is wise to interpret certain physical aspects of prophesies over-literally.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[guitarist]

The largest hailstone, and the largest snowflake.

This has been a topic that has fascinated me for some time. The book of Revelation states that one of the calamities to befall us are hailstones the "weight of a talent", which when used as a weight, and not as a form of currency, is often used to denote a weight of about 70-75 pounds. This translates to hailstones roughly 2 feet in diameter (assuming a roughly spherical shape)... We know stones that size haven't fallen yet...

Thoughts?

[zerinus]

This has been a topic that has fascinated me for some time. The book of Revelation states that one of the calamities to befall us are hailstones the "weight of a talent", which when used as a weight, and not as a form of currency, is often used to denote a weight of about 70-75 pounds. This translates to hailstones roughly 2 feet in diameter (assuming a roughly spherical shape)... We know stones that size haven't fallen yet...

Thoughts?

Hailstones were one of the ten plagues of Egypt; and there also the following account of the Lord destroying the enemies of Israel by hailstones:

Joshua 10:

10 And the Lord discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Beth-horon, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah.

11 And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Beth-horon, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.

A terribly cruel God of course! LOL!

[guitarist]

Hailstones were one of the ten plagues of Egypt; and there also the following account of the Lord destroying the enemies of Israel by hailstones:

Joshua 10:

10 And the Lord discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Beth-horon, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah.

11 And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Beth-horon, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.

A terribly cruel God of course! LOL!

They must've had it coming

Hailstones the weight of a talent would have some ridiculous force upon impact... I recall hearing figures upwards of 2,000lbs of force--that would penetrate all but reinforced concrete bunkers. Were that to be unleashed in a modern city, you'd have some serious casualties indeed.

[thesometimesaint]

Several hundreds of BB's at high speed can do more damage than a single 75 LBS one. An angry woman with a loaded shotgun is an awesome sight.

Edited February 22, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[guitarist]

Several hundreds of BB's at high speed can do more damage than a single 75 LBS one. An angry woman with a loaded shotgun is an awesome sight.

lol, thankfully I haven't had the pleasure... however, take those several hundred BBs at high speed, and turn them into several hundred 75lb ones, and you might appreciate how quickly damage could occur...

[thesometimesaint]

guitarist:

Only if it connects. A 75 LBS bullet that misses does far less damage than the shotgun blast that hits three buttons down, The three most important things about firing any weapon are shot placement, shot placement, and shot placement. It is no different with hail and crops. Sure a hailstone the size of a baseball is impressive. No doubt about it, but it is the thousands upon thousands of BB sized ones that destroy crops.

Think of it this way. Sure a person will be killed with that single 75LBS ice bullet with a direct hit, but thousands upon thousands of BB sized ice bullets destroying food crops will kill many more by starvation.

[guitarist]

guitarist:

Only if it connects. A 75 LBS bullet that misses does far less damage than the shotgun blast that hits three buttons down, The three most important things about firing any weapon are shot placement, shot placement, and shot placement. It is no different with hail and crops. Sure a hailstone the size of a baseball is impressive. No doubt about it, but it is the thousands upon thousands of BB sized ones that destroy crops.

Think of it this way. Sure a person will be killed with that single 75LBS ice bullet with a direct hit, but thousands upon thousands of BB sized ice bullets destroying food crops will kill many more by starvation.

I get what you're saying with regards to the concentration, but when I envision a hailstorm with stones the weight of a talent, I envision the same (or very close to) quantity of hail that you see in a normal hailstorm with bb sized hail, except that every stone is now the size of a mid-size beach ball. That kind of density brings on a whole new level of destruction; for starters, assuming my memory of the 2,000lb of force upon impact is correct, each stone would leave about a foot indentation in the ground of wherever it landed, pavement (though to a lesser degree) included. I doubt crops would survive that any better than the same quantity of bb sized ones.

To use the shotgun analogy, this would be more akin to comparing the 12 gauge shotgun shell to a shotgun shell 8 feet in diameter, filled with just as many cannonballs as the 12 gauge shell was filled with BBs. Fire one of each sized shell into a fully ripe field of corn. Or even if you fired ten 12 gauge shells to one 8ft cannon shell, which does more damage?

[mfbukowski]

I think enough has been shown here to fufill the prophecy, but if even one wants to extremely literal about it, I think that we can assume just from this data alone- already posted http://en.wikipedia....adly_hailstorms that there have been enough deadly hailstorms in this century to assume that the 19th was no different. I would think the record keeping in those days was much poorer- you would have to assume that every little town had some kind of record keeper for weather reporting to some central agency- as we do now- to think that such storms did NOT occur in the 19th century.

Obviously that would be a bad assumption.

You don't know what hail can do unless you have been in a Kansas hail storm. It's a scary thing! I almost got run over by a tornado once and luckily escaped only with a pock-marked car. It sounded like I was in a tin can with a hundred people pounding on the outsides of it with hammers- totally deafening! The dents were small- bb sized- but it was very scary. I stopped under a bridge and avoided further damage just as the radio announced that a tornado had just touched down at the turnpike exit about a quarter mile behind the bridge I was under.

I think that one was just a normal tornado with no recorded damage that went without much notice.

Edited February 22, 2012 by mfbukowski

[guitarist]

I think enough has been shown here to fufill the prophecy, but if even one wants to extremely literal about it, I think that we can assume just from this data alone- already posted http://en.wikipedia....adly_hailstorms that there have been enough deadly hailstorms in this century to assume that the 19th was no different. I would think the record keeping in those days was much poorer- you would have to assume that every little town had some kind of record keeper for weather reporting to some central agency- as we do now- to think that such storms did NOT occur in the 19th century.

Obviously that would be a bad assumption.

You don't know what hail can do unless you have been in a Kansas hail storm. It's a scary thing! I almost got run over by a tornado once and luckily escaped only with a pock-marked car. It sounded like I was in a tin can with a hundred people pounding on the outsides of it with hammers- totally deafening! The dents were small- bb sized- but it was very scary. I stopped under a bridge and avoided further damage just as the radio announced that a tornado had just touched down at the turnpike exit about a quarter mile behind the bridge I was under.

I think that one was just a normal tornado with no recorded damage that went without much notice.

Now imagine if in that same hailstorm the stones were all the size of beach balls. Not even that bridge would provide lasting protection from that kind of onslaught! I also imagine the noise from that would sound like putting your ear up against the barrel of an automatic shotgun...

[thesometimesaint]

guitarist:

What are the three most important thing about using a weapon?

From Wiki:

Hail

• Heaviest: 1.0 kg (2.25 lb); Gopalganj District, Bangladesh, 14 April 1986.^[120]
  
• Largest diameter officially measured: 8.0 inches (20 cm) diameter, 18.625 inches (47.3 cm) circumference; Vivian, South Dakota, July 23, 2010.^[121]
  
• Largest circumference officially measured: 18.75 inches (47.6 cm) circumference, 7.0 inches (18 cm) diameter; Aurora, Nebraska, June 22, 2003.^[120][122]
  

Edited February 23, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[The Nehor]

Not sure about hail coming but I've been assured since the 60's that the sun is coming:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6tV11acSRk

[guitarist]

guitarist:

What are the three most important thing about using a weapon?

From Wiki:

Hail

• Heaviest: 1.0 kg (2.25 lb); Gopalganj District, Bangladesh, 14 April 1986.^[120]
  
• Largest diameter officially measured: 8.0 inches (20 cm) diameter, 18.625 inches (47.3 cm) circumference; Vivian, South Dakota, July 23, 2010.^[121]
  
• Largest circumference officially measured: 18.75 inches (47.6 cm) circumference, 7.0 inches (18 cm) diameter; Aurora, Nebraska, June 22, 2003.^[120][122]
  

I'm not sure why you're quoting records, since the premise of my statements have been the ridiculously large stones mentioned in Revelation 16:21:

And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

These stones sound huge, but it's hard to imagine exactly how big without having a good grasp of a weight of a talent is like. So I decided to do a little math. Using a rough estimation of 33kg (75lb) as noted here (http://simple.wikipe...Talent_(weight)) & in the Bible Dictionary, the volume is 33 liters of water. 33 liters of water translates to 33,000cc. Translate that into ice with a thermal expansion of 9%, and it becomes 35,970cc. Now knowing the volume of this hailstone, and assuming a roughly spherical shape, using the formula, & solving for r gives us ~20.47 centimeters, which equals a ~41 centimeter (~16") diameter iceball, double the diameter of the record you post.

Edited February 23, 2012 by guitarist

[thesometimesaint]

guitarist:

The reason behind the posting was that it IS rediculously silly to take the Biblical account as literal. I sure don't.

I can believe that hail can/does destroy crops which can lead to deaths due to famine particularly in small poor countries. We are a big rich country so hail in one small section doesn't do that. We call up reserves from other parts of the country. So it gets a little tight for the farmer, but he and his family don't starve to death.

[guitarist]

So you believe this scripture to be a symbolic hailstorm then?

As for the crops, yes, destruction of crops kills potentially more than the storm itself by resulting famine, but the scripture isn't talking about a famine brought about by the hailstorm, it's describing the hail itself as the plague. It also didn't say that it was an exceedingly great plague because it killed so many men, merely that it was a plague to them (as hail of any significant size would be). Men who have their eyes set on the things of the world would probably be extremely distraught with hail big enough to total their car(s), house, & just about all of their physical possessions.

Though, after all's said and done, why can't it be literal? Is that something too hard for God to pull off? After all, we are talking about one in a series of some of the more serious plagues the world has known/will ever know...