thesometimesaint Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 Guitarist:That is like asking; Can God create a rock so big that he can't lift it? It is a self contradictory question.Of course God can do whatever he wants. He does have his agency. However within the confines of my religion he operates within the laws of science, rarely if ever exceeding those limits, or he ceases to be God, even if we can't explain it at the time. Given what we do know of the science of hail fomation I find it highly improbable to the point of impossible that even one hailstone that large would form, let alone thousands of them.
guitarist Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 I don't see how any laws of science are violated by having hailstones that large. Hail forms by precipitation freezing, and wind keeping it aloof, accumulating layer upon layer of moisture until the wind can no longer hold it up. Larger stones just require more wind and more moisture.
Calm Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) I don't see how any laws of science are violated by having hailstones that large. Hail forms by precipitation freezing, and wind keeping it aloof, accumulating layer upon layer of moisture until the wind can no longer hold it up. Larger stones just require more wind and more moisture.One should be able to calculate how much wind it would take to keep a 75 lb hailstone aloof and maybe how long it would take a 75 lb hailstone to form.I would suspect the winds needed (even if the worst of them were high up) would be plenty destructive enough on their own.It takes an updraft of 55+ mph to create hail the size of a golf ball, and an updraft of 90+ or more mph to create hail the size of a baseball. It usually takes hail the size of a hen's egg to dent a car, but hail the size of baseballs can kill animals who can't find a sheltering tree that breaks the fall of the fall. http://www.tornadoproject.com/safety/hail.htm Edited February 23, 2012 by calmoriah
LeSellers Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Hail forms by precipitation freezing, and wind keeping it aloof, accumulating layer upon layer of moisture until the wind can no longer hold it up.One should be able to calculate how much wind it would take to keep a 75 lb hailstone aloof and maybe how long it would take a 75 lb hailstone to form."Aloof"?Nah, you mean "aloft". Hailstones have no feelings. adverbat a distance, especially in feeling or interest; apart: They always stood aloof from their classmates.adverb1. high up; far above the ground.2. Nautical .a. on the masts; in the rigging; overhead.b. (on a square-rigged sailing ship) in the upper rigging, specifically, on or above the lower yards ( opposed to alow).3. in or into the air.Lehi Edited February 23, 2012 by LeSellers
Calm Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 This site seems to suggest there is an upper limit of size possible:.Largest (recoerd breaking events, such as 5"+ in Wisconsin in June 2007 or 6"++ in Nebraska in June 2003) can approach 120 MPH (that's about the upper limit, similar to a human in free-fall (skydiving), as hail is composed of water, (or mostly water) like a person)http://www.stormtrack.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-17678.html
guitarist Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 One should be able to calculate how much wind it would take to keep a 75 lb hailstone aloof and maybe how long it would take a 75 lb hailstone to form.I would suspect the winds needed (even if the worst of them were high up) would be plenty destructive enough on their own.http://www.tornadopr...safety/hail.htmI imagine you're right. But I am not the guy for that--I know my geometry, and a little bit of basic physics (with the help of google), but I don't really know how to calculate that one though."Aloof"?Nah, you mean "aloft". Hailstones have no feelings.Lehilol, yes, that is what I meant. Thank you for the correction.
thesometimesaint Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 You are talking sustained tornado force winds. Even with all the tornado made hailstones that we know about nothing even close to that size has ever been produced. Highly improbable if not impossible.
Calm Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 He did it first....Don't bug me about spelling, I'm sick with a head full of....something besides brains.
guitarist Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 This site seems to suggest there is an upper limit of size possible:.http://www.stormtrac...hp/t-17678.htmlAll that article is saying is that the terminal velocity of the stone is proportional to its size, until it reaches about 120MPH.
mfbukowski Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 Not sure about hail coming but I've been assured since the 60's that the sun is coming:The absolute BEST. I love it when that high organ part cuts in around 2:13 on this - and I have always wondered how that little wobble in the tape escaped attention around 2:30.When this came out, I was in college and I would put a pillow on the floor for my head, lay down and put both stereo speakers, left and right, over my face and ears with my nose sticking out between them, turn up the volume and play it over and over again.What did you say?
thesometimesaint Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 I think we're all a treasure trove of useless knowledge, at least to us it is. I know how to make a mojito, and I don't drink alcohol.
mfbukowski Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 "Aloof"?Nah, she was talking about this board, and wondering how much of a blowhard one would have to be to stay aloof around here!Most of us get cut down to size pretty quick!
mfbukowski Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 You are talking sustained tornado force winds. Even with all the tornado made hailstones that we know about nothing even close to that size has ever been produced. Highly improbable if not impossible.I dunno about that one.
guitarist Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 You are talking sustained tornado force winds. Even with all the tornado made hailstones that we know about nothing even close to that size has ever been produced. Highly improbable if not impossible.Well, I'm not saying that this is something that happens with any frequency. If it did, it wouldn't be all that worthy of an "end-of-the-world" calamity, would it? The point is, it doesn't actually violate any laws of science, regardless of how improbable it is.I think we're all a treasure trove of useless knowledge, at least to us it is. I know how to make a mojito, and I don't drink alcohol. I dare say I'm loaded with knowledge useless to others... At least, most of my friends seem that way with my impeccable knowledge of all things star trek...
Calm Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 The point is, it doesn't actually violate any laws of science, regardless of how improbable it is.Maybe, maybe not.Given that the largest reported was only a tenth of the required size, I'd like to see the math before claiming it didn't violate any known limits for Earth at least.The largest hailstones ever reported, weighing up to 7.5 pounds (3.4 [k]grams), fell in the state of Hyderabad, India, in 1939. However, scientists believe that these huge hailstones may have been several stones that partially melted and stuck together. On April 14, 1986, hailstones weighing 2.5 pounds (1 kilogram) each were reported to have fallen in the Gopalgang district of Bangladesh.Perhaps it is possible for ten of these superhailstones to melt and stick together to form a mega hailstone on the way down, but in that case at least there would be a lot fewer of them overall than a typical hailstone.
KevinG Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 Two years ago hail did over $23000 in damage to my home. Thankfully State Farm was there.
LeSellers Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 lol, yes, that [aloft v. aloof] is what I meant. Thank you for the correction. He did it first....Sorry. It's the maven in me. I love words, in English, French, or Italian. I think I like a lot of words in German and Spanish, too, but I don't know enough of them to be sure. I'd like a lot more words in Greek if they used a real alphabet.Lehi
Calm Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 There was a nasty hailstorm right after we moved up to Canada, so much for our pretty new car. Funny how we managed to avoid any problem for the three years we were in Kansas after having another car damaged (though not so bad) in Utah shortly before moving to Kansas. Seeing as how we were broke at the time, we collected the money and just drove the car around as is for another 8 years or so.The one in Utah we were just driving out of BYU married student housing and drove under a tree for the few seconds it continued bad. I had my husband turn the car around as soon as it stopped making me thinking it was going to crack the windshield (he kept saying it was not that big of a deal, but it had been years since I had been in a good hailstone and was overly nervous) and we went to check out the playground we had just passed full of kids and we picked up a couple of very scared little kiddies whose home was a bit of a walk and took them home (we knew them being in our ward, otherwise we wouldn't have taken them in the car, but walked them home)---remarkable how quickly the playground had cleared out. I held the younger one of them on my lap, he was covered in sand having tried to dig himself into the sandbox to escape (not quite old enough to figure out it was better to go hide in the playhouse, he just acted on instinct in trying to cover himself up). They were petrified. We dropped them off with their mom who was out looking for them and then stopped back off at home for a quick stop as I discovered that he hadn't just been wet from the rain and tears.
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