Ray Callis Hatton III Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) Some dumb people believe those in baptisms for the dead are being used to propagate membership records. Even Mr. Ernest Michel, chairman of the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors, had stated fears are that somehow people in the future will find Holocaust Jews on [membership] records and mistakenly assume they were Mormons instead of Jews. Edited February 15, 2012 by Ray Callis Hatton III
Calm Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Not dumb, but uninformed....or if informed, stiffnecked in not accepting correction.
Jeff K. Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Jeff,I believe it was said above that those who are not following the rules the Church has outlined have found themselves subject to discipline from Church. In a way, without Radkey, the Church would not be able to find these individuals who deserve discipline. We can thank her, even if she points out the embarrassment.Not surprisingly, Radkey has defenders and critics -- in and out of the LDS Church. She declines to name any Mormon friends for fear of reprisals against them. But she gladly claims career anti-Mormons Sandra Tanner and Michael Marquardt among her admirers.Neither of them is as consumed by the proxy-baptism issue, but both support her efforts.Tanner, who, with her late husband, Jerald, created Utah Lighthouse Ministry to "document problems with the claims of Mormonism and compare LDS doctrines with Christianity," calls Radkey an "indefatigable researcher" who "has done a phenomenal job."Marquardt, a researcher of early Mormon history, helped Radkey assemble the materials she took to Rome. He praises her work ethic. "She spends hours doing this, looking up names and locations. As far as I know, it's always checked out."In recent years, Radkey talked about her work at the annual meeting of American Atheists and posted her research findings on mormoncurtain.com, a site for ex-Mormons to share their stories and "recovery."Radkey's longtime Salt Lake Cityfriend Lynda Marsh sees a softer, gentler side to this genealogical pit bull."Helen can come across as looking like a hard woman, but don't be fooled, she's not," Marsh says. "She has a lot of compassion as well. She'll go the extra mile for a person. She did it for me when my husband was sick."Marsh acknowledges Radkey's persistence can be annoying.Once she starts talking about one of her pet issues, it's hard for her to stop. She frequently goes on tangents, piling detail upon detail from her encyclopedic mind, often dropping name after name she has discovered in the LDS library system. She cannot resist writing letters of complaint to newspapers on everything from prayer at public meetings and school choirs singing at religious services to the Catholic stance on gay marriage."Helen is a very dedicated person, not only to her research projects but to everything she undertakes," says Marsh, a former Mormon who shares Radkey's concerns about proxy baptisms. "Whether working on a job or with mentally disabled people, she gives her all to it. She's very dedicated to detail. What can you say when she's so passionate about it?"Negative energy Critics see it differently.Rabbi Benny Zippel of Salt Lake City's Congregation Bais Menachem is equally distressed by the posthumous baptism of Holocaust victims, believing that a conversion requires a full-fledged, conscious willingness. Any kind of proxy baptism "is morally offensive and deeply hurtful to both the survivors of the Holocaust," he says, "as well as to the souls of those who died and laid down their lives for their faith."Still, when Radkey came to him for support, he wanted nothing to do with her efforts."I don't like nurturing or enhancing negative energy," Zippel says. "I have been here for 18 years, enjoyed a very positive, enriching experience interaction with the LDS Church, with [former] President [Gordon B.] Hinckley and now with President [Thomas S.] Monson. I don't want to get involved with anything that is damaging to other people."Gordon Remington, a Protestant professional genealogist, appreciates the use of the LDS Family History Library. He is fully aware of the theological reason Mormons gather the data and is not offended by it.But Remington is offended by any individuals who use the Family History Library for personal and/or professional research yet seek to criticize or undermine the purpose for which the library exists."From the standpoint of a professional genealogist," Remington says, "I find that unethical."http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_13926671If no knowledge at all had come out, what would have changed really? The church would have enforced it policy, but on balance, I think we should look at the intent. A robber who accidently shoots and kills a man who is also doing something illegal is not less culpable. We do not thank the killer for killing another killer. We do not think the thief for stealing from another thief. We do however have to consider the motivations of those involved. Radky doesn't do this because she feels some level of empathy towards holocaust victims, nor does she feel some level of empathy towards anyone beyond her hatred. Her own children distance themselves from her obsession.The motivation is merely tertiary to her search for the destruction of our church..
Cobalt-70 Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 They didn't die for it, they died because they were Jewish, of all levels of belief. But you are right, it is very very important. It is why I cannot deny my grandmother the opportunity to join the church in the next life. I would be doing her a great disservice, and that is more important to me than the imagined anger or opinion of the living.Exactly. Mormons have just as much right to do proxy baptisms for their own ancestors as Jews have a right to be respected when they ask Mormons not to do such work for their ancestors.
Cobalt-70 Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 They didn't die for it, they died because they were Jewish, of all levels of belief....Would you say, then, that the innocent people who died at Haun's Mill were not martyrs to Mormonism?
Cobalt-70 Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Who would you say had the greater "proprietary interest" in someone who had died in the Holocaust, the "Jewish people" or a grandchild of said person?Obviously, a grandchild. I don't think anybody has much of a problem with a Mormon of Jewish ancestry doing proxy work for their own grandparent.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Of course, there are some real doozies among the reader comments.Hardly surprising. Such things invariably end up being sloughs of pooled ignorance.
Daniel Peterson Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 I've posted a reaction to the article on my new blog:http://dcpsicetnon.blogspot.com/
Calm Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Obviously, a grandchild. I don't think anybody has much of a problem with a Mormon of Jewish ancestry doing proxy work for their own grandparent.Unfortunately there are some who would disagree, that believe in no case should even a relation do the work.
Calm Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Radky doesn't do this because she feels some level of empathy towards holocaust victims, nor does she feel some level of empathy towards anyone beyond her hatred. Her own children distance themselves from her obsession.The motivation is merely tertiary to her search for the destruction of our church..Also: http://ancestryinsider.blogspot.com/2008/11/helen-radkey.htmlHas some interesting comments..Radkey has pitted Jews against Jews, saying, "Why have these Jewish leaders collectively abdicated their moral and ethical responsibility to ensure that the provisions of the agreement [between Jewish groups and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints] are finally and firmly enforced?" (JewishGen.org) "In an e-mail sent to Aaron Breitbart, senior researcher at the Simon Wiesenthal Center, Radkey lashed out at [Ernest] Michel, [chairman of the World Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors]. (Forward) Forward observed that "to seasoned observers, hearing this Catholic-cum-Mormon-cum-wannabe-Jew telling an esteemed Holocaust survivor and organizational leader how to represent a Jewish cause might seem like some sort of interfaith 'Twilight Zone.' "
Calm Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Also at that link, from 2008 an observation about the technical difficulty of identification (many seem to think the process would be easy):While the current process, TempleReady, doesn't require a submitter to identify himself, I'm pleased that the New FamilySearch does track the submitter's identity. Once the entire Church is on NFS, it will at least be possible to do something about "rogue" submitters.While NFS will make it possible to identify submitters after-the-fact, trying to prevent the submission would require a comprehensive list of holocaust victims with complete vital statistics that submissions could be checked against. Even then, it is difficult for a machine to make the complex decisions that genealogists must make when determining whether two records refer to the same individual.
KevinG Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 I may be confused by Jaybear's participation here. Let's see if we can get this cleared up some.Is anyone here advocating that its okay or cool for an LDS person to go against the guildelines of the Church when it comes to doing temple work? Does anyone approve of the submitting of the name in question?It seems like Jaybear is taking issue with something no one here is advocating. But it also seems he thinks its fine if we do follow the guidelines. In the end everyone is in agreement, perhaps?It is standard practice to use an example of someone disobeying church teachings to criticize what the church teaches. See Mountain Meadows Massacre, polygamy after the manifesto, Hoffman forgeries, etc. The Catholic bashers use this technique very successfully: abusive priests, contraceptive use, etc.
KevinG Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) dup Edited February 15, 2012 by DaddyG
ERayR Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Obviously, a grandchild. I don't think anybody has much of a problem with a Mormon of Jewish ancestry doing proxy work for their own grandparent.I am glad you agree. Now can you tell me who submitted the names in question?
KevinG Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Names are rejected?The only cases that I'm aware of is if the work has already been done even if it was recently done. Isn't it an honor system that Temple-worthy LDS have followed the church's guidelines?Temple Ready (the program that takes geneology work and checks it for accuracy and completeness, will "red flag" those names that are not in compliance with submission practices. For example if the death is recent it will remind the person submitting the name that they must be a direct relative or have permission to submit from the family. Of course no system is foolproof and depends on the honor of those using it.
Calm Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 I have not done any genealogical work for over a decade so can someone tell me if there is anything indicating a religion on the submission forms. I believe that family search may include "race/nationality" but if that is marked "Jewish" it is hardly changed to "Christian" or "nonJewish" after a proxy baptism anymore than it would be changed for a live baptism.
Storm Rider Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 I have not done any genealogical work for over a decade so can someone tell me if there is anything indicating a religion on the submission forms. I believe that family search may include "race/nationality" but if that is marked "Jewish" it is hardly changed to "Christian" or "nonJewish" after a proxy baptism anymore than it would be changed for a live baptism.There is no identification of a deceased person's religion on current forms.
Calm Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 There is no identification of a deceased person's religion on current forms.Thank you.
Jeff K. Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Would you say, then, that the innocent people who died at Haun's Mill were not martyrs to Mormonism?If you die for something you don't believe in, are you a martyr?
Scott Lloyd Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) I've posted a reaction to the article on my new blog:http://dcpsicetnon.blogspot.com/You have given voice here to my own impressions when I read the article.I will be interested to see if Allison Yarrow reads your blog and what sort of reaction, if any, she would have.For my part, if I were grading Yarrow's article in a journalism class, I would give it a generous C minus at best, grading it down for the inaccuracies, imprecise language ("baptizing the dead" rather than "baptism for the dead"), for reflecting an inadequate grasp of the facts, and a general lack of balance. And, of course, the mechanical errors ("rights" instead of rites and "god" with a lower-case g.) Edited February 16, 2012 by Scott Lloyd
Mark Beesley Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) I've posted a reaction to the article on my new blog:http://dcpsicetnon.blogspot.com/Good work. I remain puzzled at the problem a few folks seem to have with a Mormon ordinance that either has no eternal impact, or has an eternal impact that can only be characterized as good. Edited February 16, 2012 by Mark Beesley
Scott Lloyd Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Also at that link, from 2008 an observation about the technical difficulty of identification (many seem to think the process would be easy):Yes, we're talking about millions of names. And given the mistrust and ill-will with which the Church is viewed already in some quarters, I doubt the people in a position to do so would be willing to turn over all those vital statistics of Holocaust victims to form the database against which the names submissions could be checked. Edited February 16, 2012 by Scott Lloyd
cdowis Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 If you die for something you don't believe in, are you a martyr?No, you are simply dead.
Avatar4321 Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 Jeff,I believe it was said above that those who are not following the rules the Church has outlined have found themselves subject to discipline from Church. In a way, without Radkey, the Church would not be able to find these individuals who deserve discipline. We can thank her, even if she points out the embarrassment.Why would anyone be embassed for practicing Baptism for the dead and Temple work?
Recommended Posts