Community Of Christ Invitation

[Damien the Leper]

For me the women in the priesthood thing was not an issue, as it wouldn't be if that was to happen in the LDS church now or in the future. There were other issues such as practicing homosexuals in the priesthood, sanctioned at the very top of the church, even though it was against church policy. The changing of the sacrament prayers and the neutering of God. The persistent downplaying of the Book of Mormon to such an extent that I couldn't even find one in our church building and nobody wanted to talk about it. The whole succession debacle when McMurray resigned....the list goes on.

I have known a number of people who have defected to the RLDS/CofC over the years and without exception all of them have returned to the LDS fold.

The church in the nineties and up until now weren't and aren't sure how to deal with the 1960 and 1980 Standing High Council's decision on the place of homosexuals in the church. Most Community of Christ members that I know want the policy overturned. I have also heard of many defecting from RLDS/CoC because of this policy and looking for a better spiritual home. Furthermore, the National Conference that is to take place after World Conference in 2013 is going to address homosexual ordinations in the church in the United States. Because the church is in countries where homosexuality is illegal, the church has to deal with the issue in a nation by nation manner.

As for the Sacrament prayers, I kinda agree with you. However, not all congregations use the updated prayer.

As Apostle Luffman has stated before...members of Community of Christ aren't sure what to do with the Book of Mormon. Many who know anything about it either consider it to be the traditional inspired scripture or they see it as a 19th Century book of scripture. Also, Apostle Luffman has been traveling to many Mission Centers to educate church members better on the Book of Mormon and why the church recognizes it as sacred scripture.

The succession debacle of McMurray's resignation gets too much hype. After the resignation, Community of Christ was in a period of discernment that led up to the special 2005 conference in which President Veazey gave his first speech as Prophet, "Share the Peace of Jesus Christ". Ignoramuses and critics for quite some time tried to scandalize it. (Would Selek call this pure unmitigated rot?)

[Alan]

The standing high council instruction on homosexual ordinations should have been upheld by the President of the Church at the very least, but it wasn't. That makes a mockery of the whole thing.

The succession following McMurray was a major problem in my opinion. The RLDS/CofC had always emphasised the need for the requirements of D&C 43 to be followed, ie. the outgoing president has to nominate his successor. This was the whole reason for the justification of the rejection of Brigham Young. However, the CofC were well and truly dropped in it by McMurray and the period of discernment was a damage limitation exercise in my view. It is interesting they went for the president of the twelve! Maybe should have stuck with Brigham all along

[Damien the Leper]

The standing high council instruction on homosexual ordinations should have been upheld by the President of the Church at the very least, but it wasn't. That makes a mockery of the whole thing.

The succession following McMurray was a major problem in my opinion. The RLDS/CofC had always emphasised the need for the requirements of D&C 43 to be followed, ie. the outgoing president has to nominate his successor. This was the whole reason for the justification of the rejection of Brigham Young. However, the CofC were well and truly dropped in it by McMurray and the period of discernment was a damage limitation exercise in my view. It is interesting they went for the president of the twelve! Maybe should have stuck with Brigham all along

A mockery? I admire their ability to weigh consience and conviction against policy.

I understand what you mean about Sec. 43. But it was a situation they had not yet encountered. We don't know the circumstances of McMurray's resignation. But the churches response from what I recall was sympathetic and positive.

As for going for the President of the Council of Twelve...mere coincidence.

[Stargazer]

A mockery? I admire their ability to weigh consience and conviction against policy.

I understand what you mean about Sec. 43. But it was a situation they had not yet encountered. We don't know the circumstances of McMurray's resignation. But the churches response from what I recall was sympathetic and positive.

As for going for the President of the Council of Twelve...mere coincidence.

I harbor no disrespect for the CoC, and I wish them well, but to me at least, their doctrinal and policy peregrinations is simply evidence that they never had any prophetic leadership. At one time I think they might have had a somewhat credible claim to be the successor church after Joseph's death. But no longer.

[Damien the Leper]

I harbor no disrespect for the CoC, and I wish them well, but to me at least, their doctrinal and policy peregrinations is simply evidence that they never had any prophetic leadership. At one time I think they might have had a somewhat credible claim to be the successor church after Joseph's death. But no longer.

This reminds me of what I learned about Frederick Madison Smith during his presidency. He attempted to institute a policy know as Supreme Directional Control. The policy would enforce strict compliance from the membership concerning any and all official decisions proposed by the First Presidency. Thankfully the membership saw right through such b.s. and saw it for the tyrannical authoritarianism it was. Community of Christ focuses on being a prophetic people as opposed to a people with a prophet. They have been on a journey of their own and have done well for themselves and have stood up well against adversity.

[wenglund]

This reminds me of what I learned about Frederick Madison Smith during his presidency. He attempted to institute a policy know as Supreme Directional Control. The policy would enforce strict compliance from the membership concerning any and all official decisions proposed by the First Presidency. Thankfully the membership saw right through such b.s. and saw it for the tyrannical authoritarianism it was. Community of Christ focuses on being a prophetic people as opposed to a people with a prophet. They have been on a journey of their own and have done well for themselves and have stood up well against adversity.

It sounds like you have research the CoC quite thoroughly, given it a lot of thought, and have become an advocate. What, if anything, is standing in the way of you fully embracing that faith--if you haven't already? What is preventing you from continuing your move away from a people with a prophet to what you may see as a prophetic people?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited February 15, 2012 by wenglund

[Damien the Leper]

It sounds like you have research the CoC quite thoroughly, given it a lot of thought, and have become an advocate. What, if anything, is standing in the way of you fully embracing that faith--if you haven't already? What is preventing you from continuing your move away from a people with a prophet to what you may see as a prophetic people?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I'm not sure. I need to talk to Heavenly Father about it. I guess I haven't really thought about joining Community of Christ much but have been fascinated and intrigued by their church.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Valentinus

[Storm Rider]

That is a false assumption of their own. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, The Church of Jesus Christ, The Temple Lot, etc. all hold to a conservative and traditional belief in the Book of Mormon.

It may have been a false assumption, but it did not change their decision; they joined the LDS Church and have been faithful. In addition, it is very difficult to join the other groups unless you are located in areas where there is one of their churches. For the LDS Church, it is just so much larger that it is easy to find a congregation.

Also, the women/priesthood issue that many like to kick and scream about is historically a non-issue. But we have gone round for round on this argument and all that ends up happening is the throwing of weight around that women and priesthood is wrong because the LDS church is the one true church.

It may only be a historical issue to you, but the problem is that the vast majority of all Christians believe that the priesthood is a calling for men. They also believe that women have a different calling. It is not an LDS issue, but a Christian issue that Catholics, Orthodox (i.e. the vast majority of all of Chrisitianity) believes.

[Damien the Leper]

It may have been a false assumption, but it did not change their decision; they joined the LDS Church and have been faithful. In addition, it is very difficult to join the other groups unless you are located in areas where there is one of their churches. For the LDS Church, it is just so much larger that it is easy to find a congregation.

It may only be a historical issue to you, but the problem is that the vast majority of all Christians believe that the priesthood is a calling for men. They also believe that women have a different calling. It is not an LDS issue, but a Christian issue that Catholics, Orthodox (i.e. the vast majority of all of Chrisitianity) believes.

I hope that their choice of Faith serves them well. I also agree with you on the accessibility of the other churches.

I don't have a problem with the history of women and priesthood. I have a problem with the allowance of female priesthood to be actively used and then to have it suspended.

I'm not concerned with what the other Christians and Catholics believe about women in their churches. I believe women serve a much greater purpose than the confinement of wife, mother and home-maker.

[Storm Rider]

I hope that their choice of Faith serves them well. I also agree with you on the accessibility of the other churches.

I don't have a problem with the history of women and priesthood. I have a problem with the allowance of female priesthood to be actively used and then to have it suspended.

I'm not concerned with what the other Christians and Catholics believe about women in their churches. I believe women serve a much greater purpose than the confinement of wife, mother and home-maker.

I have seldom, if ever, heard anyone think or say that motherhood was insignificant or somehow less than another calling or position. It is interesting that you would classify motherhood as something less than some etheral "greater purpose". What greater purpose can one have than bring a life into the world and raising that life to life a productive, fruitful life? I am sorry, but I reject your premise that there is something greater.

[why me]

The whole CoC depends on correct succession after Joseph Smith was murdered. If one believes that Brigham was chosen by god to lead the church, then the CoC becomes irrelevant. However, if one believes that Brigham was not chosen by god but by men and women then, the CoC can have some relevance. And this would be true for lds who decide to go over to the CoC. It all goes back to succession.

[why me]

From the official Community of Christ site:

I think the word choice of how they define God and Jesus is interesting. I'm not sure that their definition of Trinity is exactly matching that of the mainstream Protestants.

Again, if one believes that Brigham was chosen by god to lead the lds church, then the CoC has a false foundation. It makes very difference what they say about the tinity or about Jesus. Also, as far as I can tell, they have no leader or prophet. Just a council of apostles.

[jwhitlock]

I have seldom, if ever, heard anyone think or say that motherhood was insignificant or somehow less than another calling or position. It is interesting that you would classify motherhood as something less than some etheral "greater purpose". What greater purpose can one have than bring a life into the world and raising that life to life a productive, fruitful life? I am sorry, but I reject your premise that there is something greater.

Absolutely. No other success can compensate for failure in the home.

Odd how this concept that motherhood (or fatherhood) is a second class role continues to creep into society. Maybe it's because motherhood isn't highly visible and doesn't have immediate material perks that go with it; is that what's more important than the "confinement" of women to so-called roles that are, in the world's eyes, mere drudgery? Wonder what Christ would have to say about the public glory of the world being better than quiet, nurturing service over the years.

Here's a question that would be interesting; what does the CoC have to say about the role of women that is so important, and is supposed to "free" them from the confinement of being a wife, mother, and home-maker?

[Alan]

I'm not sure. I need to talk to Heavenly Father about it. I guess I haven't really thought about joining Community of Christ much but have been fascinated and intrigued by their church.

Well my friend, I promise you that you will be disappointed if you take that path. It looks ok from the outside but once you get inside the wrapper there is very little there. As the saying goes "Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt". I cannot emphasise enough that you will not find what you think is there.

The only portion of the Josephites I have any time for nowadays are the independent restoration branches. These people have, for all intents and purposes, left the CofC but are still counted on their rolls. They describe themselves as having moved out from under the CofC leadership. In fact, most of the active Josephites in Independence are not CofC but these more traditional RLDS who have rejected the CofC leadership as apostates. The CofC is in terminal decline and the leadership know it. I have had more than one of their general authorities sat in my house and frankly acknowledge that fact. One of them is now on their first presidency. Brigham Young said that those groups who failed to follow the preisthood would not ultimately prosper, and we are seeing that very prophecy unfold before our eyes.

[why me]

Brigham Young said that those groups who failed to follow the preisthood would not ultimately prosper, and we are seeing that very prophecy unfold before our eyes.

And that was point in my above posts. For the CoC to be true, Brigham needed to be a false leader and those who stayed behind and organized a splinter church would need to be correct. But it does look like Brigham was a the correct choice for leader which would make the CoC wrong.

[tuthseeker]

And that was point in my above posts. For the CoC to be true, Brigham needed to be a false leader and those who stayed behind and organized a splinter church would need to be correct. But it does look like Brigham was a the correct choice for leader which would make the CoC wrong.

Brigham Young could still be a false leader - the world is full of false leaders

[Kenngo1969]

Brigham Young could still be a false leader - the world is full of false leaders

I'm sorry you lost one or more of your teeth. I hope you find it (or find them) soon!

[tuthseeker]

I'm sorry you lost one or more of your teeth. I hope you find it (or find them) soon!

Can you help me find them? lol They have to be around here somewhere!

[jnichols]

hi folks!

i am a community of christ member... Alan knows me well. Alan and i have a very different view of the church.

the community of christ does not rely on any materials from the lds (mormon) church. we do maintain an understanding when and where it comes to some historical documents and materials. hey, we even allow you folks to visit or kirtland temple and the temple in independence! the lds church does not in any way, shape or form, support nor provide for, the community of christ.

we are a church that embraces our restoration heritage while boldly taking steps into the future where God is leading.

not trying to proselytize but clear up some misconceptions i have read in this thread...

john

[randyj]

Well my friend, I promise you that you will be disappointed if you take that path. It looks ok from the outside but once you get inside the wrapper there is very little there. As the saying goes "Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt". I cannot emphasise enough that you will not find what you think is there.

The only portion of the Josephites I have any time for nowadays are the independent restoration branches. These people have, for all intents and purposes, left the CofC but are still counted on their rolls. They describe themselves as having moved out from under the CofC leadership. In fact, most of the active Josephites in Independence are not CofC but these more traditional RLDS who have rejected the CofC leadership as apostates. The CofC is in terminal decline and the leadership know it. I have had more than one of their general authorities sat in my house and frankly acknowledge that fact. One of them is now on their first presidency. Brigham Young said that those groups who failed to follow the preisthood would not ultimately prosper, and we are seeing that very prophecy unfold before our eyes.

Hi Alan! This is your buddy in Indep. Mo. remember me? I trust all is well with you and yours...and it's great to see you! I would hope that folks would give what you say some serious consideration, because knowing you a bit....and being there when you went through that experience....I can assure everyone that what you say is not born out of vindictiveness or with any ax to grind.....all you're sharing is the truth as you experienced it.

As you know...having lived here in Independence my entire 54 yrs...I can testify to the validity and accuracy of your statements.

Take care Mate!!

[randyj]

hi folks!

i am a community of christ member... Alan knows me well. Alan and i have a very different view of the church.

the community of christ does not rely on any materials from the lds (mormon) church. we do maintain an understanding when and where it comes to some historical documents and materials. hey, we even allow you folks to visit or kirtland temple and the temple in independence! the lds church does not in any way, shape or form, support nor provide for, the community of christ.

we are a church that embraces our restoration heritage while boldly taking steps into the future where God is leading.

not trying to proselytize but clear up some misconceptions i have read in this thread...

john

Hi John,

You said..."we are a church that embraces our restoration heritage"......

If you could....could you elaborate a bit more on exactly what you mean when you use the word "embrace"? Are you saying that as a church, the CoC "accepts and believes" in it's Restoration heritage...or do you mean that you simply "recognize and acknowledge" it.....kinda like having to recognize and acknowledge the "crazy Uncle" at family reunions?

[why me]

hi folks!

i am a community of christ member... Alan knows me well. Alan and i have a very different view of the church.

the community of christ does not rely on any materials from the lds (mormon) church. we do maintain an understanding when and where it comes to some historical documents and materials. hey, we even allow you folks to visit or kirtland temple and the temple in independence! the lds church does not in any way, shape or form, support nor provide for, the community of christ.

we are a church that embraces our restoration heritage while boldly taking steps into the future where God is leading.

not trying to proselytize but clear up some misconceptions i have read in this thread...

john

The CoC also comes out against some LDS teachings such as temple weddings for eternity and the lds baptism for the dead. But it all comes down to the succession question. Was Brigham chosen by God to lead the lds church westward or was Brigham a false prophet. I would have to go with Brigham on this one. You guys have had too many succession problems.

[Alan]

hi folks!

i am a community of christ member... Alan knows me well. Alan and i have a very different view of the church.

the community of christ does not rely on any materials from the lds (mormon) church. we do maintain an understanding when and where it comes to some historical documents and materials. hey, we even allow you folks to visit or kirtland temple and the temple in independence! the lds church does not in any way, shape or form, support nor provide for, the community of christ.

we are a church that embraces our restoration heritage while boldly taking steps into the future where God is leading.

not trying to proselytize but clear up some misconceptions i have read in this thread...

john

Hi John,

Hope I didn't come over as aggressive or as some rabid ex-member with an axe to grind. I think you know I am not like that. I just don't want someone else to experience the disappontment I did if it can be helped. But in the end everyone chooses their own path in life and we have to respect that.

God bless you.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Alan

[jnichols]

Hi Alan, Randy, et al!

we certainly all do select our own paths... wise or not! LOL! (like that sword can't bite both ways!)

i am not here to get into any arguments... not here to pick any bones... just here to give my views as a member of the community of christ. there does seem to be so much "misinformation" out there...

and randy... when i say embrace our restoration heritage, that is what i am saying. do we get caught up in all the strange trappings of that heritage? no. but it is where we are from and has given us roots as we do our best to follow where God is leading. weird uncle? LOL!

Hello "why me"!

yes, the community of christ rejects those temple things you mention. they have not been a part of our church nor do i imagine they ever will be a part of our church. i would also not choose to get into an argument about succession... i mean, jsii designated so many different people (if i remember correctly there were at least six different folks he designated as his successor). you have chosen to follow one... i have chosen to follow another...

anyway, nice to see some old friends here!

[mfbukowski]

As we seen in Catholicism, the more a faith has succession problems, the less credibility it has at least as far as whatever "authority" they are espousing. That seems obvious.