Are Mormons Stupid? (Or Theists In General?)

[jskains]

In a discussion some time ago, a Liberal Mormon I know accused conservatives of being uneducated. The claim was that anyone who goes to college, usually ends up Liberal. When I claimed that several articles show that conservative Mormons are often well educated, he retorted that most "educated" Mormons do not actually count because they often choose confined non-critical thinking areas like Computer Technology, Law, or Business (I didn't know these were non-critical thinking areas). That only liberal arts majors apparently are the real critical thinkers, which contain of course shockingly, progressives/liberals. And went on to also claim only Liberal Arts and similar majors can understand the needs and wants of other cultures.

This reminds me also of the general opinion of the "freethinking" Atheists. They appear to believe all theists are stupid, that all educated people generally are more likely to be theists. That only those poor and desperate cling to their guns and religion.

So what is this all about? Are traditional conservative Mormons nothing more than mindless non-thinkers who march to the beat of their Church masters? Why do critics, especially atheists, always try to pull out this supposed intelligence card?

Am I just a stupid little boy who clings to his Mormonism because he is afraid of the dark (death?)

[jwhitlock]

Sounds like the liberal thinker is defining the rules and parameters of "intelligence" to fit only the people he wants it to fit. The claim that computers, law, or business don't entail critical thinking is untenable and exposes the bias in his thought process.

[jskains]

What bothers me is I think not only is there the general struggle of theists vs atheists, but we are seeing this newer struggle of Liberal Mormons vs Conservative Mormons come to light. And infighting within the Church is not a future I think is healthy.

[Tarski]

This reminds me also of the general opinion of the "freethinking" Atheists. They appear to believe all theists are stupid, that all educated people generally are more likely to be theists.

Actually, it seems that there is some evidence that atheism is more likely among the educated. But this doesn't prove much by itself. I think there was a time when being educated would make it somewhat more likely that your were sympatheitc to marxism and also more likely to be enamoured of the doctrines of Freud.

Am I just a stupid little boy who clings to his Mormonism because he is afraid of the dark (death?)

Is it totally and competely implausible that fear of death and uncertainty has something to do with religious belief?

Whoever wrote the following seems to get the connection:

"O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

Edited February 5, 2012 by Tarski

[Duncan]

I think when you have children you become more conservative!

[thesometimesaint]

Granparents and Grandchildren all agree that parents are stupid.

There are several good studies that show in general that the more conservative a person is the lower their IQ. But that in no way says that individual liberals are smarter or that individual conservatives not smart.

Edited February 5, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[bluebell]

I'm a liberal arts major and a conservative and i'm most definitely not the only one in my classes.

In Nazi germany, the educated university elite were the most anti-semitic in the country. Being educated is always a good thing but since much of education is indoctrination, it certainly doesn't guarantee a person will be a benefit to society.

[KevinG]

Some Mormons are quite stupid. Some are freakishly brilliant.

Intelligent conservatives who attend college don't get more liberal - they learn to keep their mouths shut and regurgitate what their professors will accept for an A grade.

[wenglund]

Anecdotally, I have noticed that the people who typically resort to the "my tribe is smarter than your tribe" spiel, tend not to be the kind of people likely viewed as the sharpest knives in the drawer. In other words, such spiels are often tissuey cover for prejudice-driven feelings of inadequicy.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[The Nehor]

As my callings have often involved being around people coming in and out of the church I have observed that some (though not all) of those who leave the church become more stupid after they leave. It's like their intellect is dulled. They aren't as witty as they used to be and even in subjects not touching the LDS faith they seem to be slower.

On the reverse I've seen some (but not all) genuinely stupid converts become smarter as they mature in the gospel.

I would say in general society there is some correlation between liberalism and education. I have not seen the same correlation between liberalism and intelligence or conservativism and intelligence for that matter.

[The Nehor]

Is it totally and competely implausible that fear of death and uncertainty has something to do with religious belief?

Whoever wrote the following seems to get the connection:

"O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

It's not implausible but I've rarely seen that fear work actual religion in everyday life. It is sometimes enough to lead to call a priest for last rites on a deathbed or scare someone straight for a week but it is unlikely to make someone faithful or religious in any real way unless (as some faiths do) you think of those terms meaning assent to a series of theological statements.

Then again, I don't think God thinks that highly of "religious belief". It's a prerequisite to something better. This was driven home to me today as a total ******* I know bore his testimony in church today. The man has made the lives of people I care about a living hell for years. He manipulates, abuses, threatens, and controls. He doesn't live the gospel in any way I have seen. Yet he stood up and bore testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel and I think he meant it. He assents to the beliefs. I have no idea why. It is not inconceivable that he fears death and hell and that is why he believes. I don't see any of the fruits of the gospel in his life or any of what I believe the Savior wants.

Necessary Proviso: I could be judging him too harshly. Maybe he tries harder then I will ever know to beat those problems and fails. Maybe he has bad hardware and software in his life and his paltry efforts at virtue that I haven't seen are the equivalent of the widow's mite. Still, even if I have misjudged him, most of us know someone like this. I have a hard time believing some of them aren't frauds who stay in the church because of some ulterior motive.

[thesometimesaint]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100224132655.htm

[jskains]

http://www.scienceda...00224132655.htm

So many flaws. I mean honestly, I was rated an IQ of 143 during my childhood. Yet here I am,, very religious and very suspicious of people of Science. What exactly does that mean?

And what is really a conservative? A liberal? A progressive? It relies on a lot of "self identity".

For example, people in Utah who claim themselves to be "liberal" are often not. Having spent time in San Francisco, some of the most liberal folks in Salt Lake would likely be labeled moderate at best.

*Shrug*

[jskains]

It's not implausible but I've rarely seen that fear work actual religion in everyday life. It is sometimes enough to lead to call a priest for last rites on a deathbed or scare someone straight for a week but it is unlikely to make someone faithful or religious in any real way unless (as some faiths do) you think of those terms meaning assent to a series of theological statements.

Then again, I don't think God thinks that highly of "religious belief". It's a prerequisite to something better. This was driven home to me today as a total ******* I know bore his testimony in church today. The man has made the lives of people I care about a living hell for years. He manipulates, abuses, threatens, and controls. He doesn't live the gospel in any way I have seen. Yet he stood up and bore testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel and I think he meant it. He assents to the beliefs. I have no idea why. It is not inconceivable that he fears death and hell and that is why he believes. I don't see any of the fruits of the gospel in his life or any of what I believe the Savior wants.

Necessary Proviso: I could be judging him too harshly. Maybe he tries harder then I will ever know to beat those problems and fails. Maybe he has bad hardware and software in his life and his paltry efforts at virtue that I haven't seen are the equivalent of the widow's mite. Still, even if I have misjudged him, most of us know someone like this. I have a hard time believing some of them aren't frauds who stay in the church because of some ulterior motive.

One could argue that fear can play a role in Atheism. No one wants to look stupid or ignorant, and Atheists use that card quite a bit. And some people out of pressure to not feel cheated, deceived, or stupid, can often change their minds in order to avoid that foolish feeling.

JMS

[asbestosman]

It seems to me that people often find those who tend to agree with them seem more intelligent and those who disagree seem less intelligent. When I say things critics tend to agree with, they tend to see me as more intelligent. When I disagree with them, they tend to view me as less intelligent. They're not the only ones I think behave this way. I find this is also the case for other attributes such as how funny a joke seems.

[rameumptom]

I find there are decent arguments to be had on both the conservative and liberal Mormon sides of things. For this reason, I tends toward being a Libertarian, as it frees up people to be thinkers, instead of mindless government drones.

Sad for us, most news and policy programming on television today is either virulently pro Democrat or Republican, and neither side gets a real view of the other. So many cheap shots at the other, without really looking hard at one's own side. In doing such, we do not get any intelligence in any of the discussion, just shrill voices.

[Deborah]

Actually, it seems that there is some evidence that atheism is more likely among the educated. But this doesn't prove much by itself.

Especially when you understand that intelligence isn't necessarily equated with educated. My mother was highly intelligent and read voraciously, but she never completed high school. I know many "educated" people whom I consider quite dumb.

Is it totally and competely implausible that fear of death and uncertainty has something to do with religious belief?

Not at all, it's the "no atheists in a foxhole" idea. I can only speak for myself though and my belief in God predated any concepts or fear of death. I mean if there is nothing hereafter why fear death because you wont know the difference anyway. The question comes up I think when someone approaches death and begins to wonder if maybe they were wrong and should have done something more.

[Nofear]

What bothers me is I think not only is there the general struggle of theists vs atheists, but we are seeing this newer struggle of Liberal Mormons vs Conservative Mormons come to light. And infighting within the Church is not a future I think is healthy.

I found this TED talk to offer some fascinating insight into the liberal vs. conservative: Jonathan Haidt on the moral roots of liberals and conservatives. So much misunderstanding comes from a failure to comprehend another's perspective. He showed some real chutzpah in telling his very much predominately liberal audience that they were living in a delusional world of misunderstanding (though, he could have said the same about a very conservative crowd).

[Kenngo1969]

In response to the OP, Ken, in best Forrest Gump voice: "Stupid is as stupid does, sir!"

(Sorry; couldn't resist.)

[thesometimesaint]

jskains:

Such is the failings in measuring any large group of people. The individual may vary tremendously from that group. The average IQ is by definition 100 but individuals span a range from 25 to 200. 25 being not smart enough to recognize your own name when called, and 200 is Einstein territory.

I too measured high on the IQ scale at 149, and I still am a member of the Church. Go figure.

[Kenngo1969]

...(I)ntelligence sn't necessarily equated with educated. My mother was highly intelligent and read voraciously, but she never completed high school. I know many "educated" people whom I consider quite dumb. ...

There's "Book Smart" and there's "Real-Life Smart." I'm plenty "Book Smart"; got more degrees than I'll ever use. By contrast, my dad never graduated high school and it took him 11 years to get a bachelor's degree, but he's one of the smartest "Real-Life Smart" people I've ever known. I would trade every last ounce of my "Book Smarts" for an ounce of his "Real-Life Smarts." My "Book Smarts" have never gotten me anywhere and probably never will; unfortunately, "Real-Life Smarts" is one of those things one has to be born with, I think.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Kenngo1969

[Calm]

"Real-Life Smarts" is one of those things one has to be born with, I think.

I don't think so...at least not completely. I think one can train oneself to be pay more attention to what is happening around him or her which is a huge part of "real-life smarts". I find those who are book smart who seem to lack in real life smarts tend to lack in awareness of what is going on around them to a great degree, whether because of self-centeredness, high levels of focus, or something else. This isn't inherently bad as it can lead to greater efficiency in getting certain things done, but like many things if taken to extremes can cause harm. It is best if one learns to turn this quality off and on as needed, but like many things the benefits can lead to it becoming too strong of a habit to do so.

[Kenngo1969]

I don't think so...at least not completely. I think one can train oneself to be pay more attention to what is happening around him or her which is a huge part of "real-life smarts". I find those who are book smart who seem to lack in real life smarts tend to lack in awareness of what is going on around them to a great degree, whether because of self-centeredness, high levels of focus, or something else. This isn't inherently bad as it can lead to greater efficiency in getting certain things done, but like many things if taken to extremes can cause harm. It is best if one learns to turn this quality off and on as needed, but like many things the benefits can lead to it becoming too strong of a habit to do so.

Can't argue too much with that. Thanks, Cal.

[KevinG]

I know a lot of people on the internet that are Google smart.

[Kenngo1969]

I know a lot of people on the internet that are Google smart.

Yeah, and that's actually a scary thought when it comes right down to it. As someone once said, it isn't what people know that's the problem; it's that they "know" so much that just isn't so.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Kenngo1969