Morality By Oxytocin

[rpn]

http://www.cnn.com/2....html?hpt=hp_t2

How do you think this research fits in with what we know about our spirit's inherent goodness and the natural man that is our mortal body?

[thesometimesaint]

As with any physical object we are a collection of chemicals. But that doesn't say we are nothing more than a collection of chemicals.

[cinepro]

I've wondered if a pill were developed that gave people "spiritual" feelings, would it be unethical to give it to my kids when we read the scriptures or go to church?

Edited December 27, 2011 by cinepro

[Rivers]

I've wondered if a pill were developed that gave people "spiritual" feelings, would it be unethical to give it to my kids when we read the scriptures or go to church?

I would think so.

[katherine the great]

http://www.cnn.com/2....html?hpt=hp_t2

How do you think this research fits in with what we know about our spirit's inherent goodness and the natural man that is our mortal body?

This research just supports what we already know about oxytocin--it makes us feel good and when we feel it's effects, we want to share and nurture. It is largely responsible for the mother-child bonding that takes place at birth. Being a firm believer in human evolution, I think it just a very small part of the millions of chemical factors that make our bodies fit vehicles for our spirits and enable us to live the gospel.

[Cold Steel]

I've wondered if a pill were developed that gave people "spiritual" feelings, would it be unethical to give it to my kids when we read the scriptures or go to church?

Interesting question.

There's a TV show called Stargate SG1, which I'm sure many of you have seen. In the last season a group of religious zealots called the Ori are infiltrating the galaxy. Their proselytizing technique is simple: convert or die. And they have the power to back it up. Faced with this threat, one of their enemies (whom we know in lore as Merlin) created a technological response known as the "Ark of Truth." It had the ability to reverse the theological effects of these priors simply by permeating the web of influence that linked them all via staffs they carried, and these staffs were the source of their power.

In the final episode, which the Scy-Fy Channel turned into a 2-hour movie entitled The Ark of Truth, the morality of using the Ark was featured. Why? Because although some peoples were coerced into accepting the priors' message, others accepted it freely. In fact, some societies had accepted it for generations. If it sounds familiar, it's fully intentional I assure you. But as Hugh Nibley pointed out on numerous occasions, science fiction not only sees into the future, it many times mimics the present, or past, because at some point it just runs out of steam and becomes ridiculous.

So I think the "if" is simply not obtainable. I'm one of those people who believe we bring with us a lot of baggage from our previous estate. That's why some people seem to be born good while others appear to be born bad (Saddam Hussein's sons spring to mind). I don't care how much nasal spray one develops, I don't think it will change our predilections. That's why some young children torture cats and others don't. Can we make up lost ground from the first estate? Yes, but it's tough; however, the Savior has made it entirely possible.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Cold Steel

[Sevenbak]

I've wondered if a pill were developed that gave people "spiritual" feelings, would it be unethical to give it to my kids when we read the scriptures or go to church?

Just the opposite is true. Don't ingest a pill, or anything else.

It's called fasting.

[cinepro]

Just the opposite is true. Don't ingest a pill, or anything else.

It's called fasting.

If going without food or water for a period of time were shown to put people in a mental state that made them more likely to feel "spiritual feelings" (regardless of the nature of the experience), would that make spiritual feelings felt by LDS during fasting less worthy of consideration?

[Chris Smith]

If going without food or water for a period of time were shown to put people in a mental state that made them more likely to feel "spiritual feelings" (regardless of the nature of the experience), would that make spiritual feelings felt by LDS during fasting less worthy of consideration?

Exactly. Undernourishment has biochemical effects that make people more likely to have visionary experiences, as do fevers, trances, hypoxia, dehydration, and hallucinogenic drugs. Fasting is one of many techniques employed by religions throughout the millennia to induce religious experiences by disrupting the ordinary healthy functioning of mind and body.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Chris Smith

[frankenstein]

From the article:

"Morality undergirds economic exchange, opening up more opportunities for the creation of wealth that individuals in a transaction can share. And, prosperity (perhaps surprisingly) can make societies more moral."

A funny statement to read after just reading an article about 10 tech firms settle with 24 states over an international price fixing scheme. Not to mention, that the housing boom and shoody investment practices - both driven by greed - have the global economy on the brink of collaspe.

[CV75]

http://www.cnn.com/2....html?hpt=hp_t2

How do you think this research fits in with what we know about our spirit's inherent goodness and the natural man that is our mortal body?

As with every other mortal experience, it is what we are doing while feeling generous, altruistic, or otherwise trustworthy that makes it spiritually beneficial, as well as the spiritual meaning we attach to these experiences of feeling and doing, as also their ratification by the Holy Spirit.

Some studies also show that our thoughts and feelings can change our genetic makeup, as can addiction and other behaviors.

If we can impact brain chemistry so as to induce positive feelings with drugs, exercise, fasting, art, etc., then a spiritual approach can also be used, which is what Christ taught. His religious practices and doctrines facilitate the development of these feelings and offer opportunities through ordinances and covenants to do something about them that have genuine eternal impact.

I recently had some leftover oxycodone and took a half dose to alleviate some pain I had after a full day of rather strenuous physical labor (a Church service project! Which is why I didn’t share…). I’m sure this contributed to the sense of gratitude, generosity, affection and other good feelings I enjoyed for a couple of hours while taking care of errands with my wife. I took note of the feelings, considered how closely it mimicked similar feelings I usually enjoyed after priesthood service or spending time with my wife, and realized that even this very fine mood wasn’t quite the same as the Spirit’s influence, or if I had produced oxytocin / endorphins / what have you naturally through good works and attitudes and more wholesome recreation.

Regarding man as spirit and natural man, chemicals/element are part of our probation and resurrection (in either condition, man is that he might have joy).

Edited December 28, 2011 by CV75

[wenglund]

I suspect that people with a low spiritual quotient (SQ) may be more susceptible to confusing artificially induced spiritual-like sensations with real spiritual sensations, just as people with low emotional quotients (EQ) may confuse artificially induced emotions with natural emotions. Whereas people with higher SQs and/or EQs may be less susceptible to confusion and more capable of differentiation.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[lachrymolotov]

I suspect that people with a low spiritual quotient (SQ) may be more susceptible to confusing artificially induced spiritual-like sensations with real spiritual sensations, just as people with low emotional quotients (EQ) may confuse artificially induced emotions with natural emotions. Whereas people with higher SQs and/or EQs may be less susceptible to confusion and more capable of differentiation.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Unless, of course, your ability to estimate your own SQ is faulty and, really, your spiritual feelings are the same as the spiritual feelings of everyone else who has ever existed and aren't really spiritual, at all. The only thing you would have to judge is how you feel about it, and history has demonstrated that to be a cruddy yard stick.

How do you think your abilities differentiate a "real" spiritual experience versus a fake one compare to mine... an atheist?

[wenglund]

Unless, of course, your ability to estimate your own SQ is faulty and, really, your spiritual feelings are the same as the spiritual feelings of everyone else who has ever existed and aren't really spiritual, at all. The only thing you would have to judge is how you feel about it, and history has demonstrated that to be a cruddy yard stick.

How do you think your abilities differentiate a "real" spiritual experience versus a fake one compare to mine... an atheist?

Since spiritual and emotional sensations are subjective, there is no meaningful way to compare your experiences with mine. However, within myself I have been able to differentiate certain emotional experiences from spiritual experiences, as well as artificially induced spiritual and emotional experiences from natural ones. If you lack that capacity, then logically that differentiates your experience or quotient from mine, though there is no way to say for sure.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[lachrymolotov]

You mean experiences that you "feel" or "think" are spiritual, right? Is it not possible that these spiritual feelings are just emotions like everything else you experience in life?

[Peppermint Patty]

I think that this research is interesting, and does describe basic chemistry in the brains of social animals. However, the researcher, is fundamentally incorrect about the "thing that makes humans different (than animals)". It is not MORALITY that makes us different, it is our ability to REASON, to model the world and the self in our minds, and reflect upon our actions. This is what makes humans different.

Any social animal has the empathic ability. But only man has the ability to reason, and can thus define what is just, fair, and right, from that which is unjust, unfair, and wrong. Even those who have no oxytocin or testosterone can act morally, if they reason out what is right.

Other than that, I found this to be very interesting research.

[Cold Steel]

Undernourishment has biochemical effects that make people more likely to have visionary experiences, as do fevers, trances, hypoxia, dehydration, and hallucinogenic drugs. Fasting is one of many techniques employed by religions throughout the millennia to induce religious experiences by disrupting the ordinary healthy functioning of mind and body.

Yes, undernourishment also has biochemical effects that cause the lame to walk, the blind to see and the dead to rise.

Still, I wonder how many religions have been founded, or how many visionary experiences have been recorded by Oxycontin?

[Chris Smith]

Yes, undernourishment also has biochemical effects that cause the lame to walk, the blind to see and the dead to rise.

When was the last time you saw someone rise from the dead as a result of fasting (or any other religious practice, for that matter)? I hope you carefully documented it so we can all evaluate the evidence for ourselves. (You know, to make sure you weren't under the influence of fasting at the time! )

Edited December 28, 2011 by Chris Smith

[Mike Reed]

Delete

Edited December 28, 2011 by Mike Reed

[wenglund]

You mean experiences that you "feel" or "think" are spiritual, right? Is it not possible that these spiritual feelings are just emotions like everything else you experience in life?

I suppose it could be a special class of emotions, or alien brain probes, or matrix simulations, or temporary rifts in the space/time continuum, or overlaps with alternative universes, or any of a number of indeterminate things. All I know is that with as much as I have experienced spiritual things, they are discernibly different sensations and experiences than what I experience physically--not unlike, metaphorically, the discernible difference to me between what I experience while dreaming and what I experience while I am awake.

The good news is that since at this point in my mortal existence I don't know and perhaps can't know of a certain that I am experiencing spirit reality, what matter to me is whether viewing it as spiritual (in a supernatural sense) works in improving my life and the life of those around me. It does.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[lachrymolotov]

Have you always practiced one religion? Or did you convert? If so, how many religions have you subscribed to in your life?

[Deborah]

Have you always practiced one religion? Or did you convert? If so, how many religions have you subscribed to in your life?

I'm assuming this is addressed to Wade, though I wonder at the reason for the question. What difference does it make as the things one learns in one religion may lead one to the next, and so on.

For myself I studied many religions before becoming LDS as was trying to find the right one. I ended up going to a particular church which I liked not because of any great conversion but because I decided the religion I found in the Bible didn't match anything else I had studied. It wasn't until I found the LDS church that requirement was met and I knew this is what I had been searching for. I don't devalue any of my other experiences as they all contributed to my spiritual growth.

[CV75]

weglund's post is about as close as I can get to describing the difference as well.

Though there is a perceived difference by some, why is the understanding of how the brain works used to counter how the Spirit works? I don’t see how the two processes automatically cancel each other out. No two brains are alike; someone on drugs may mimic someone who only has unaided brain chemistry, and vice-versa. Fasting for example can facilitate motivation, effectiveness and efficiency in personal improvement and in helping others, and as an ancillary religious practice associated with empathizing with and bearing the burdens of the poor (by giving the cost of two meals skipped). I suppose someone could improve and help others without fasting, but what new result would arise from their fasting in faith?

This isn’t to slam any of posts on this thread, but a challenge that I myself can’t meet: the best answer would come from someone who understands both how the brain works and how the Spirit works, without telling knowledgeable proponents of one or the other that they don’t know what they are talking about.

[wenglund]

Have you always practiced one religion? Or did you convert? If so, how many religions have you subscribed to in your life?

Not that it matters, but I was born into the LDS faith, and converted prior to my mission, and during my mission and for years afterwards I studied other religious faiths and interacted at great length with members of those faiths. I have done the same with atheists and agnostics and also spent many years studying secular philosophy and interacting at great length with proponents of various philosophical positions. I can't be sure but I believe I have had an above average exposure to different belief systems--enough to make informed decisions and personal assessments.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[thesometimesaint]

lachrymolotov:

Convert at the age of 20, before then Agnostic.