Jesus Christs Atonement And My Salvation

[Kenngo1969]

Leave a few copies of the Book of Mormon scattered around with 2 Nephi 25:23 bookmarked.

That might not work: as much as you'll want them to focus on the "by grace that we are saved" part, they'll focus, instead, on the "after all we can do" part.

[Calm]

During an interview (in the “God Makers” video) Dr. Harold Goodman, who was President of the Mormon Mission in England, stated:

You are using the God Makers video as a reference and you expect to be taken seriously by LDS?

[Minos]

I think your opinion (your prerogative) is just that to which you are entitled to in which I disagree with (my prerogative). I can decide for myself in how I respond. I don't tell you or anyone how they are to respond, never have.

Board guidelines tell you how to respond and we expect our visitors to comply or leave. You are thread banned for the packaged sermon. You will be banned if you use The Godmakers again. It has been denounced as hate speech by the JADL. Keep it off our board.

[coolrok7]

You are using the God Makers video as a reference and you expect to be taken seriously by LDS?

The point being made in regards to the thread op was to respond to Anakin7 (in part the Mormon concept of salvation as It differes from Biblical salvation, not the same) . The source of the quote is where the reference can be verified as to being out of the mouth of the London Mission President. I've had two respond and take me to task on valid points I'm making in regards to Anakin7.

[saemo]

I am going to separate my responses into two posts: trying to understand the Catholic point of view, and trying to understand the LDS point of view.

So from a Catholic point of view we aren't "progressing" because we were created to be a certain way. Are we striving to be as we would have been without the Fall of Adam? Is our creation done in the way God intended, but through the birth process we inherit the fallen state? Or are we created in the fallen state? How do we know what we were created to be?

We are created to love God, who loves us. We are created in the image of God, which would logically preclude being created in a fallen state. God does not create us as fallen, it is a state we have inherited by the fall of Adam and Eve. Jesus Christ has redeemed us. There is no "striving" to be as we would have been without the fall, as that is what occurred by the saving grace of Jesus Christ. What we call Salvation.

Catholics don't view this life as progressing, but living as we were created to be. The call of all Christians is to live the reality that we are all created in God's image, loved by God, redeemed by God, thus we are called to see in others and ourselves the same thing that God sees...someone who is loved unconditionally by God, and has been freed from sin by Jesus Christ.

God saves us from the original sin, from the Fall of Adam. Are we also saved from our own mistakes and weaknesses? It sounds like any sins or weaknesses on our part are only due to our Fallen nature due to Adam, but that seems to detract too much from our personal responsibility to have faith in God, be reconciled, etc. Why even strive to improve when God, at the resurrection, will make us all "as we were" before the Fall?

God created us to love Him, of course love cannot be forced. God gave us free will in order that we could love HIm freely. Using the gift of free will, in actions or thoughts against God, is an abuse of that free will and is called "sin". The Good News is, we are reconciled through Jesus Christ, who has paid the price for our sins (both actual and Original Sin).

Then Jesus was prepared because God knew Adam would screw up? This sounds a bit like God's plan didn't work out as He intended. He meant for us to live in His presence but Adam ruined that so then God prepared a Savior as a backup plan to fix it. If God's plan was for us to be with Him as we were created, why even make a way for anyone to mess that up?

God gave us the gift of free will, and does not force us to act in any certain way. Nothing is hidden from God, nothing is unknown to God. All is present to Him. Of course He knew Adam and Eve were going to sin, this does not make it His plan, not any more than any other sin committed by any other person.

Catholics do not believe in progression, we do believe in holiness. We are made holy (sanctified) in, by and through Jesus Christ. The gift of free will that God has given us allows us to freely align ourselves to the Will of God. Submitting to His desire for us, which is, submitting to the love of God, this is the "work" that Catholics engage in. Sin is the opposite, and opposition to the Will of God, which separates us from Him.

Edited December 26, 2011 by saemo

[saemo]

Hello Saemo,

I have heard others outside the Church say the same thing before and it always escapes me how they arrived at that conclusion.

I'd say it is your focus on ordinances that have this goal at the center, and failure has the result of losing a promised godhood.

This does not deny the reason of my creation. God has created us to to be like him. He did not create us so that he could have a multitude of sycophants to sing him praises; he does not need that. He has a purpose in our being and he desires each of us to return to him. What purpose do you think he has in our being?

God created us to love Him and be with Him.

I read a book recently, by then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, where he describes the Love of Father and the Son for each other as being Creative. That is, love cannot exist alone.

The thought on Creation within Catholicism has a great depth. Unfortunately, I have found in conversations with most LDS the need to stay in the shallows, sticking to the plan (pun intended), and viewing Creation outside of this plan as utilitarian in nature. I have yet to figure out how to convey to LDS that this is not God's purpose for us, but there is never understanding.

On the other hand, it is the exact view of have of LDS teaching...everyone has their purpose laid out for them, like a stapler or a pencil, and the purpose of this life is to act like a stapler or a pencil. *shrug*

Peace to you in this Holy Season of Christmas.

Edited December 26, 2011 by saemo

[altersteve]

Catholics do not believe in progression, we do believe in holiness. We are made holy (sanctified) in, by and through Jesus Christ. The gift of free will that God has given us allows us to freely align ourselves to the Will of God. Submitting to His desire for us, which is, submitting to the love of God, this is the "work" that Catholics engage in. Sin is the opposite, and opposition to the Will of God, which separates us from Him.

You're contradicting yourself here. Progression means "improvement," and to become holy by and through Jesus Christ is an improvement. Are you saying that you don't believe in the importance of becoming a better person? That's all the LDS idea of progression is about. It's really that simple.

[altersteve]

We are created to love God, who loves us. We are created in the image of God, which would logically preclude being created in a fallen state. God does not create us as fallen, it is a state we have inherited by the fall of Adam and Eve. Jesus Christ has redeemed us. There is no "striving" to be as we would have been without the fall, as that is what occurred by the saving grace of Jesus Christ. What we call Salvation.

This is where we disagree. Latter-day Saints do not believe that we are born in a fallen state. This, to us, means that we are individually created fallen. The concept of a pre-existence, the LDS view of mortality, and the entire plan of salvation has to do with this, and until this is properly understood, then you won't fully understand our view on the Fall either. What exactly about the plan of salvation are you have trouble understanding?

Catholics don't view this life as progressing, but living as we were created to be. The call of all Christians is to live the reality that we are all created in God's image, loved by God, redeemed by God, thus we are called to see in others and ourselves the same thing that God sees...someone who is loved unconditionally by God, and has been freed from sin by Jesus Christ.

Isn't "living as we are created to be" some type of progression, or improvement?

God created us to love Him, of course love cannot be forced. God gave us free will in order that we could love HIm freely. Using the gift of free will, in actions or thoughts against God, is an abuse of that free will and is called "sin". The Good News is, we are reconciled through Jesus Christ, who has paid the price for our sins (both actual and Original Sin).

I find it strange how you say this as if you think we disagree with you. If you don't think Latter-day Saints agree with this, then you don't understand LDS doctrine at all.

God gave us the gift of free will, and does not force us to act in any certain way. Nothing is hidden from God, nothing is unknown to God. All is present to Him. Of course He knew Adam and Eve were going to sin, this does not make it His plan, not any more than any other sin committed by any other person.

Of course. God knew Adam and Eve would sin, and He let it happen because it was a necessary thing for them to do. If they hadn't have sinned, then there would be no sadness or pain in the world, and without any sadness then there would be no happiness. And that's what Latter-day Saints believe God wants for us the most: happiness. That's what needs to be understood here. Happiness is the most important thing in God's plan for us, and if bad things have to happen to make happiness the ultimate outcome, then who are we to question it? God knows what He's doing.

[TAO]

That might not work: as much as you'll want them to focus on the "by grace that we are saved" part, they'll focus, instead, on the "after all we can do" part.

Use 2nd Nephi 2:8 then =)

Edited December 26, 2011 by TAO

[JDave]

We are created to love God, who loves us. We are created in the image of God, which would logically preclude being created in a fallen state. God does not create us as fallen, it is a state we have inherited by the fall of Adam and Eve. Jesus Christ has redeemed us.

God created us to love Him, of course love cannot be forced. God gave us free will in order that we could love HIm freely. Using the gift of free will, in actions or thoughts against God, is an abuse of that free will and is called "sin". The Good News is, we are reconciled through Jesus Christ, who has paid the price for our sins (both actual and Original Sin).

God gave us the gift of free will, and does not force us to act in any certain way. Nothing is hidden from God, nothing is unknown to God. All is present to Him. Of course He knew Adam and Eve were going to sin, this does not make it His plan, not any more than any other sin committed by any other person.

LDS doctrine is pretty much aligned with the above. If you think there is a serious difference then let me know.

There is no "striving" to be as we would have been without the fall, as that is what occurred by the saving grace of Jesus Christ. What we call Salvation.

Catholics don't view this life as progressing, but living as we were created to be. The call of all Christians is to live the reality that we are all created in God's image, loved by God, redeemed by God, thus we are called to see in others and ourselves the same thing that God sees...someone who is loved unconditionally by God, and has been freed from sin by Jesus Christ.

Catholics do not believe in progression, we do believe in holiness. We are made holy (sanctified) in, by and through Jesus Christ. The gift of free will that God has given us allows us to freely align ourselves to the Will of God. Submitting to His desire for us, which is, submitting to the love of God, this is the "work" that Catholics engage in. Sin is the opposite, and opposition to the Will of God, which separates us from Him.

I'm not sure how this works. It sounds like you are saying: We don't strive, because Jesus Christ already redeemed us. We just live life knowing that we are redeemed. We even live life knowing that we are made holy and sanctified because Jesus Christ made it so. We just choose to align our lives with that salvation and sanctification that was already been effectuated.

Isn't there any effort or striving required to align ourselves to the Will of God? Isn't there any change in ourselves once we do align ourselves to God and are made holy? Or... After the resurrection, will those who are redeemed by Christ and go to heaven find themselves in the same state as they would have been without the Fall?

[Anakin7]

Have been away from my computer for awhile due to Church/Home/Work resposibilities. This thread has been very active I see. We are Saved by True Grace [charis] Accessed/ Activated by True Faith [pistis] which is True LDS [ And True Biblical ] Doctrine/Teaching/Thought/Practice/Walk/Run.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[saemo]

LDS doctrine is pretty much aligned with the above. If you think there is a serious difference then let me know.

The LDS doctrine that the fall was good, planned and necessary is a serious difference. Eve's sin separated us from God. Separation from God is never good, planned or necessary.

Catholic teaching is, God will use suffering and evil to His Purpose. What was made corrupt by sin, has been restored by perfect love.

I'm not sure how this works. It sounds like you are saying: We don't strive, because Jesus Christ already redeemed us. We just live life knowing that we are redeemed. We even live life knowing that we are made holy and sanctified because Jesus Christ made it so. We just choose to align our lives with that salvation and sanctification that was already been effectuated.

Isn't there any effort or striving required to align ourselves to the Will of God? Isn't there any change in ourselves once we do align ourselves to God and are made holy? Or... After the resurrection, will those who are redeemed by Christ and go to heaven find themselves in the same state as they would have been without the Fall?

Of course aligning our will to the Will of God takes a conscious effort, however, holiness can be defined by saying, sin is no longer viewed as an option. This is possible in this life. St. Paul describes this well, as "dieing to oneself", and so of course, there is change as the old person is thrown off and we are made a new creation. None of this is something that we strive for on our own, rather we are held in the arms of Jesus at all times, and are transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ conquered sin for us. We only have to follow Him. In, with and through Jesus Christ is, how we align ourselves to the Will of God. We can't align ourselves to God in, with and through ourselves. It isn't possible.

Your last question, it seems to me is aligned to the LDS teaching of a pre-existence, which is completely foreign to Catholic thought. But if I'm understanding you correctly, the answer is yes. God created us in His image, and called Creation Good. Sin entered the world, and corrupted what God had created. The Sacrifice of Jesus Christ has restored all of us to our original state. Personal, or actual sin, is what separates us from God, but through Jesus Christ we are reconciled. The abyss between us and God that was created by the fault of Adam and Eve is forever conquered. Through submitting ourselves, willingly, to the Will of God, our hearts are conquered and the love of Jesus Christ reigns in and through us.

In Eve we see how aligning ourselves to our own will separates us from God. In Mary, the new Eve, we see how she aligned herself to God, with her "yes" (be it done to me according to thy Word). In her submission to the Will of God, God became Man and dwelt among us, and so we see God can do great works through us, for His Purpose, when we choose to align our will to His.

Hope that helps.

Edited December 27, 2011 by saemo

[Storm Rider]

I'd say it is your focus on ordinances that have this goal at the center, and failure has the result of losing a promised godhood.

God created us to love Him and be with Him.

I read a book recently, by then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, where he describes the Love of Father and the Son for each other as being Creative. That is, love cannot exist alone.

The thought on Creation within Catholicism has a great depth. Unfortunately, I have found in conversations with most LDS the need to stay in the shallows, sticking to the plan (pun intended), and viewing Creation outside of this plan as utilitarian in nature. I have yet to figure out how to convey to LDS that this is not God's purpose for us, but there is never understanding.

On the other hand, it is the exact view of have of LDS teaching...everyone has their purpose laid out for them, like a stapler or a pencil, and the purpose of this life is to act like a stapler or a pencil. *shrug*

Peace to you in this Holy Season of Christmas.

This does not sound like the Catholic doctrine I have read or had explained to me by several wonderful priests with whom I have had a long relationship. The Sacraments are very similar to LDS ordinances.

The differences you are drawing may simply be an issue of semantics. Many of the ECF would not describe our purpose as simply to love God or learn to love him. Many of them talked of holiness and becoming progressively more holy in this mortal life. To follow Christ is surrendering to his will, but that surrendering is a constant process rather than an event. It is a constant alignment; if it were not we could not be tempted. In that we are tempted we must constantly seek to overcome the carnal man and choose to follow the Spirit. This is a struggle and a constant battle. It is never finished until we are taken from this earth.

Baptism is vitually the same in both churches; marriage is built on the same principles also. The Sacrament, though significant in LDS theology, does not play as central a role as found within Catholicism. How do you see the Sacraments differ from the concepts of ordinances vis-a-vis salvation?

[JDave]

The LDS doctrine that the fall was good, planned and necessary is a serious difference. Eve's sin separated us from God. Separation from God is never good, planned or necessary.

That is a good distinction to make as to where we truly do have irreconcilable beliefs.

Of course aligning our will to the Will of God takes a conscious effort, however, holiness can be defined by saying, sin is no longer viewed as an option. This is possible in this life. St. Paul describes this well, as "dieing to oneself", and so of course, there is change as the old person is thrown off and we are made a new creation. None of this is something that we strive for on our own, rather we are held in the arms of Jesus at all times, and are transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit.

A conscious effort that we don't strive for? I don't see how that is possible, nor why it is necessary from a Catholic doctrine point of view to say that people do not "strive" to be better and more like Christ (more holy). The doctrine that we can only truly change and become holy through Jesus Christ, as you state in your quote below, seems to allow a total reliance on God while still admitting that mankind must act for themselves and "strive" to follow Him.

Jesus Christ conquered sin for us. We only have to follow Him. In, with and through Jesus Christ is, how we align ourselves to the Will of God. We can't align ourselves to God in, with and through ourselves. It isn't possible.

Your last question, it seems to me is aligned to the LDS teaching of a pre-existence, which is completely foreign to Catholic thought. But if I'm understanding you correctly, the answer is yes. God created us in His image, and called Creation Good. Sin entered the world, and corrupted what God had created. The Sacrifice of Jesus Christ has restored all of us to our original state. Personal, or actual sin, is what separates us from God, but through Jesus Christ we are reconciled. The abyss between us and God that was created by the fault of Adam and Eve is forever conquered. Through submitting ourselves, willingly, to the Will of God, our hearts are conquered and the love of Jesus Christ reigns in and through us.

You understood me correctly even though my wording could have been better. This does help a bit. Thank you.

If we are returned to our original state, which includes the same Free Will that allowed Adam and Eve to sin and separate themselves from God, what precludes us from ever sinning again and again creating that abyss that has been "forever conquered"?

Also, just for clarification... From a Catholic point of view, God created mankind to love Him and be with Him. Specifically God created Adam and Eve. So Catholics must believe that Adam and Eve could have procreated without the Fall, but they just never did until after the Fall? Also, how am I seen as a creation of God and not a creation of a vast chain of descendents from the one person God did create? Is this because God created a self-procreating species and therefore all the derivatives are His creation as well?

[saemo]

You're contradicting yourself here. Progression means "improvement," and to become holy by and through Jesus Christ is an improvement. Are you saying that you don't believe in the importance of becoming a better person? That's all the LDS idea of progression is about. It's really that simple.

Progression means much more than self-help improvement, right? Isn't it a stepped process to becoming a god. This in no way is believed by any Catholic.

[saemo]

This does not sound like the Catholic doctrine I have read or had explained to me by several wonderful priests with whom I have had a long relationship. The Sacraments are very similar to LDS ordinances.

The differences you are drawing may simply be an issue of semantics. Many of the ECF would not describe our purpose as simply to love God or learn to love him. Many of them talked of holiness and becoming progressively more holy in this mortal life. To follow Christ is surrendering to his will, but that surrendering is a constant process rather than an event. It is a constant alignment; if it were not we could not be tempted. In that we are tempted we must constantly seek to overcome the carnal man and choose to follow the Spirit. This is a struggle and a constant battle. It is never finished until we are taken from this earth.

Baptism is vitually the same in both churches; marriage is built on the same principles also. The Sacrament, though significant in LDS theology, does not play as central a role as found within Catholicism. How do you see the Sacraments differ from the concepts of ordinances vis-a-vis salvation?

I see a lot of similarities in the Catholic belief of becoming holy, and the Mormon belief of perfection. Of course, there are differences.

*shrug* From my view, Joseph Smith copied what already existed, so the similarities to Catholic Sacraments are there, just as they are in a lot of break-off denominations.

There is a major differences between Catholic Sacraments and Mormon ordinances. The major one being, Catholics don't view the Sacraments as stepping stones to exaltation.

Edited December 27, 2011 by saemo

[bluebell]

There a major differences between Catholic Sacraments and Mormon ordinances. The major one being, Catholics don't view the Sacraments as stepping stones to exaltation.

What purpose do the Catholic Sacraments serve?

[saemo]

A conscious effort that we don't strive for? I don't see how that is possible, nor why it is necessary from a Catholic doctrine point of view to say that people do not "strive" to be better and more like Christ (more holy). The doctrine that we can only truly change and become holy through Jesus Christ, as you state in your quote below, seems to allow a total reliance on God while still admitting that mankind must act for themselves and "strive" to follow Him.

First, one can never forget saving grace. You must also realize that Catholic teaching is that one does not have to be Catholic in order to be with God in heaven. This is only possible by the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Of course, there are deeper and broader teachings in Catholicism, but at a 10000 foot view, this is a sufficient explanation.

You understood me correctly even though my wording could have been better. This does help a bit. Thank you.

If we are returned to our original state, which includes the same Free Will that allowed Adam and Eve to sin and separate themselves from God, what precludes us from ever sinning again and again creating that abyss that has been "forever conquered"?

I don't think you quite have it. The abyss I'm speaking of is mans separation from God. This separation kept us from God's presence in the next life. By us, I mean all of humankind. Nothing precludes us from sinning, but the same saving grace that reconciles us to God, is forever present, forever reconciling us. This Presence, is Jesus Christ. He is the new and everlasting covenant.

Perhaps something a deacon friend of mine said will help. In the struggle of sin, confession and forgiveness, some people are so distraught over their sins that they can't believe it is possible they are forgiven, and so, don't seek reconciliation (through confession), believing that they are a "lost cause". My friend councils such people that by the grace of Jesus Christ they are forgiven already. Before they seek reconciliation, God has forgiven them. The evidence of this is in Christ Crucified. St. Paul teaches that God saved us in our sins. When a person seeks reconciliation, they are asking for what has already been given. The graces given by the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of reconciliation (also called confession) are those of healing. Through Jesus Christ we are healed of our sins.

Also, just for clarification... From a Catholic point of view, God created mankind to love Him and be with Him. Specifically God created Adam and Eve. So Catholics must believe that Adam and Eve could have procreated without the Fall, but they just never did until after the Fall?

I think first you should understand that Catholics view "be fruitful and multiply" not as a commandment, we see it as it as it written, a blessing given to Adam and Eve. "God blessed them saying, be fruitful and multiply". This blessing was given before the fall. (Gen 1:27-28) Catholic teaching is the blessings and responsibilities of parenthood were given to Adam and Eve at their creation and this was not contingent on their obedience to God.

Whether or not they procreated before the fall is not known, or mentioned in the Genesis accounts.

Also, how am I seen as a creation of God and not a creation of a vast chain of descendents from the one person God did create? Is this because God created a self-procreating species and therefore all the derivatives are His creation as well?

God is the Creator of our bodies and our souls. The soul being created at the moment of our conception. The body being a creation of God, not a derivative of an earlier creation.

Edited December 27, 2011 by saemo

[saemo]

What purpose do the Catholic Sacraments serve?

This is almost word for word a question from the Baltimore catechism, so I'll just copy from it.

Q. 574. What is a Sacrament?

A. A Sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.

Q. 580. Why have the Sacraments been instituted?

A. The Sacraments have been instituted as a special means through which we are to receive the grace merited for us by Christ. As Christ is the giver of the grace, He has the right to determine the manner in which it shall be given, and one who refuses to make use of the Sacraments will not receive God's grace.

Edited December 27, 2011 by saemo

[Cold Steel]

Why do they never mention our True Belief and True Faith regarding True Salvation and True Grace?

Because they've got an agenda and because they have a corrupted view of our theology.

I'm reading the Old Testament now and have been interspacing it with the New. One thing that jumps out at me is that the "voice" of God, and that of the Savior in the New, is amazingly similar to that of Christ in our own revelations. To me it's something Joseph Smith could never have come up with on his own. It's clear to me just in reading that Jehovah and Jesus are one and the same.

People who are Protestants and Catholics are decent people in many respects, but their understanding is so incredibly marred by their sheer inability to comprehend. At some point in the future, they're going to hit themselves in the head and castigate themselves for being so thick headed. And as Joseph Smith said, it's not what they know; it's what they don't know that clouds their understanding. I get that a lot when I'm reading or listening to Hugh Nibley. There's just an incredible amount of information that we don't know -- that he didn't know -- but which is out there. As someone pointed out years ago, we don't even know the strength of our own position.

[bluebell]

People who are Protestants and Catholics are decent people in many respects, but their understanding is so incredibly marred by their sheer inability to comprehend. At some point in the future, they're going to hit themselves in the head and castigate themselves for being so thick headed.

I think most LDS will be doing the head-slap thing as well.