seriously honestly Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 Those people who do inherit eternal life will be those who have accepted Christ, have followed His commandments to the best of their abilities, and repent of their sins.If you agree with this, then you agree with mormons about who will gain eternal life.Yes, as understood according to Mormonsim. Hence my first reponse; "technically true". I don't know why then there are so many responses on this thread about how that's wrong.
bluebell Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 Yes, as understood according to Mormonsim. Hence my first reponse; "technically true". I don't know why then there are so many responses on this thread about how that's wrong.Because whether or not someone will inherit eternal life has nothing to do with whether or not they ever held the name of 'mormon'.
seriously honestly Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) Because whether or not someone will inherit eternal life has nothing to do with whether or not they ever held the name of 'mormon'.You're completely missing the point...not trying to be rude, I promise. I just don't know how to make it more clearer.Let me ask it this way: who are they who have accepted Christ, follow His commandments, repent of their sins, and follow the laws and ordinances of the Gospel (and not just any gospel, but the restored Gospel)? Edited December 21, 2011 by seriously honestly
bluebell Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 You're completely missing the point...not trying to be rude, I promise. I just don't know how to make it more clearer.Let me ask it this way: who are they who have accepted Christ, follow His commandments, repent of their sins, and follow the laws and ordinances of the Gospel (and not just any gospel, but the restored Gospel)?As are you (and i'm not trying to be rude or snarky either).LDS believe that there are many people who are saved at this moment who aren't members of the LDS church. "In either the apocalyptic sense or the historical sense, individual orientation to the Church of the Lamb or to the great and abominable church is not by membership but by loyalty. Just as there Latter-day Saints who belong to the great and abominable church because of their loyalty to Satan and his life-style, so there are members of other churches who belong to the Lamb because of their loyalty to him and his life-style. Membership is based more on who has your heart than on who has your records." Stephen Robinson, published in the Ensign, 1988.LDS believe that being a member of the church is how we become members of the church of the Lamb, but we don't believe membership is mandatory to being a member of the church of the Lamb.
seriously honestly Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 As are you (and i'm not trying to be rude or snarky either).LDS believe that there are many people who are saved at this moment who aren't members of the LDS church."In either the apocalyptic sense or the historical sense, individual orientation to the Church of the Lamb or to the great and abominable church is not by membership but by loyalty. Just as there Latter-day Saints who belong to the great and abominable church because of their loyalty to Satan and his life-style, so there are members of other churches who belong to the Lamb because of their loyalty to him and his life-style. Membership is based more on who has your heart than on who has your records." Stephen Robinson, published in the Ensign, 1988.LDS believe that being a member of the church is how we become members of the church of the Lamb, but we don't believe membership is mandatory to being a member of the church of the Lamb. why do you baptize the dead into your church?
LeSellers Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 why do you baptize the dead into your church?Technically, we don't.Lehi
bluebell Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 why do you baptize the dead into your church?We baptize in behalf of the dead because we believe that baptism by authority is essential to the process of salvation, not because we believe that being a mormon is essential to be saved.Besides that, how could we know which ones were members of the church of the lamb before death and which weren't?
Nevo Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) LDS believe that there are many people who are saved at this moment who aren't members of the LDS church.You must be defining "saved" very loosely here. A person must be confirmed a member of the Church, whether in this life or in the next, to receive eternal life. This is why confirmation is practiced in the temple for and in behalf of deceased nonmembers. Confirmation is a saving ordinance. Edited December 21, 2011 by Nevo
bluebell Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 You must be defining "saved" very loosely here. A person must be confirmed a member of the Church, whether in this life or in the next, to receive eternal life. This is why confirmation is practiced in the temple for and in behalf of deceased nonmembers. Confirmation is a saving ordinance.What about all those babies and children who die and are promised the celestial kingdom? Doesn't that imply that the promise of salvation can exist under specific circumstances even before certain saving ordinances have taken place?
LeSellers Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 You must be defining "saved" very loosely here. A person must be confirmed a member of the Church, whether in this life or in the next, to receive eternal life. This is why confirmation is practiced in the temple for and in behalf of deceased nonmembers. Confirmation is a saving ordinance.While this is apparently true, it is very misleading.The confirmation ordinance does specify that the confirmation is into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but there are two churches with that name, one being a subset of the other. The subset is the one to which I belong, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah.The other is the Church of Jesus Christ to which all Saints, from Adam forward to our time (and which includes us now), belong. It is into this church that the confirmation for the dead is done in the Temples.If it were not so, we'd count these people as members of The Church—but we do not.Further, neither baptism nor confirmation is valid unless and until the person baptized and confirmed accepts the Gospel. We don't know who has nor who has not. So, in a real sense, there are no baptisms in the Temple. The physical ordinance is done, but the ordinance is not complete.Lehi
seriously honestly Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 Technically, we don't.LehiAlright then, why do you perform baptisms for the dead?
LeSellers Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) Alright then, why do you perform baptisms for the dead?See here.Lehi Edited December 21, 2011 by LeSellers
saemo Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) I can't figure out what Mormons believe they are saved from and why. Edited December 21, 2011 by saemo
altersteve Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 I can't figure out what Mormons believe they are saved from and why.We believe that we are saved from not living with God again.
saemo Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 We believe that we are saved from not living with God again.Yes, but you also believe it was God's plan to have you in a state where you aren't living with Him....so it comes across to me as believing God is saving you from His own plan. ??
LeSellers Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 Along with differences in what "saved" means, there is a huge difference in what is taught about what we are saved from, and why. (I can't figure out what Mormons believe they are saved from and why.)I'd guess you have not paid close attention. As I recall, you were once LDS. If you don't have this concept, it is little wonder you are no longer a Saint.We are saved from physical death. which is the separation of our bodies from our spirits. This is automatic by the Atonement of Christ and His triumph over hell, the grave/tomb. All mankind is saved from death, irrespective of anything other than that he was born on earth and (by definition) he kept his first estate. (Satan and his angels did not keep that first estate and in consequence will never be resurrected, first because they were never, nor ever will be, born with a physical body.)We are also saved from the effects of sin. This effect is termed the second or spiritual death—separation from God. We are now suffering the second death. A permanent effect of the Atonement is that those who conform to the Law of the Gospel or of Jesus Christ will be restored to the presence of God.The fact that all men deal with obedience to varying degrees means, as Christ put it, that there are many mansions in the Kingdom of God.Lehi
seriously honestly Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 See here.LehiI know why baptisms for the dead are performed. Your answer doesn't change anything.
LeSellers Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 Yes, but you also believe it was God's plan to have you in a state where you aren't living with Him....so it comes across to me as believing God is saving you from His own plan. ??You skipped a huge part of the plan, the part that makes coming to earth and undergoing mortality a necessity.For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.The famous John 3:16 says the same thing.Lehi
saemo Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 I'd guess you have not paid close attention. As I recall, you were once LDS. If you don't have this concept, it is little wonder you are no longer a Saint.We are saved from physical death. which is the separation of our bodies from our spirits. This is automatic by the Atonement of Christ and His triumph over hell, the grave/tomb. All mankind is saved from death, irrespective of anything other than that he was born on earth and (by definition) he kept his first estate. (Satan and his angels did not keep that first estate and in consequence will never be resurrected, first because they were never, nor ever will be, born with a physical body.)We are also saved from the effects of sin. This effect is termed the second or spiritual death—separation from God. We are now suffering the second death. A permanent effect of the Atonement is that those who conform to the Law of the Gospel or of Jesus Christ will be restored to the presence of God.The fact that all men deal with obedience to varying degrees means, as Christ put it, that there are many mansions in the Kingdom of God.LehiLehi, as I said, it is the planned part that makes it all go out of focus for me. But yes I was raised LDS but have not been a Mormon for decades. What I recall is what you typed out (thanks for doing that).
LeSellers Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 I know why baptisms for the dead are performed. Your answer doesn't change anything.If you know, why did you ask?Lehi
saemo Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) You skipped a huge part of the plan, the part that makes coming to earth and undergoing mortality a necessity.The famous John 3:16 says the same thing.LehiStill the same plan. John 3:16 is talking about Jesus redeeming us from our fallen state...the original sin of our first parents. Which, LDS believe was planned...no else believes God desired the fall of Adam and Eve. And LDS reject the doctrine of original sin, which is the whole purpose for our Salvation through Jesus Christ. Edited December 21, 2011 by saemo
LeSellers Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 Lehi, as I said, it is the planned part that makes it all go out of focus for me. But yes I was raised LDS but have not been a Mormon for decades. What I recall is what you typed out (thanks for doing that).You're welcome. (And you're welcome back, too.)The plan is that God wants us to become like Him, the same as any good father wants his son to grow up to become like him. But that is not a given, we must become godlike by doing godliness. That requires mortality, it requires death and resurrection. It requires faith, It requires God-like attributes that He cannot give us. It requires the offputting of the natural man. We cannot learn those things except by doing them. That is why the Plan of Salvation, or Plan of Happiness, exists: it is to allow us to become like God; to fill the measure of our creation. Lehi
altersteve Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) Yes, but you also believe it was God's plan to have you in a state where you aren't living with Him....so it comes across to me as believing God is saving you from His own plan. ??No. For now, God's plan is indeed to have us living in a state where we aren't with Him, but His ultimate plan, His work and His glory, is for us to live with and be like Him after this worldly probation period is over. He wants more than anything to give us everything we could ever imagine, and more. Jesus Christ saves us from not being able to receive these blessings.As Moses 1:39 states, God's work and glory is to bring to pass man's immortality and eternal life. There is a very important distinction between these two things, and it's extremely important to understand that distinction if you want to properly understand God's plan of happiness.Still the same plan.John 3:16 is talking about Jesus redeeming us from our fallen state...the original sin of our first parents. Which, LDS believe was planned...no else believes God desired the fall of Adam and Eve.We don't believe "God desired the fall of Adam and Eve" either, only that He knew it would be necessary. And Latter-day Saints reject the "original sin" concept. We believe we are held accountable for our own sins, not for Adam's transgression. Edited December 21, 2011 by altersteve
saemo Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 You're welcome. (And you're welcome back, too.)The plan is that God wants us to become like Him, the same as any good father wants his son to grow up to become like him. But that is not a given, we must become godlike by doing godliness. That requires mortality, it requires death and resurrection. It requires faith, It requires God-like attributes that He cannot give us. It requires the offputting of the natural man. We cannot learn those things except by doing them. That is why the Plan of Salvation, or Plan of Happiness, exists: it is to allow us to become like God; to fill the measure of our creation. LehiYes, which makes discussing saving grace as comparative between LDS and everyone else to be more than difficult.There can be no comparison, as we aren't even talking about the same thing.
seriously honestly Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 If you know, why did you ask?LehiTo demonstrate a point in the conversation I was having with BlueBell.
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