Anakin7 Posted December 16, 2011 Author Posted December 16, 2011 The grace of Christ is completely sufficient to save (as the book of mormon teaches)."Works" have no saving power whatsoever. They are just the way that Christ has declared we are to access the power.Both works and grace are needed to become joint-heirs with Christ, but grace alone overcomes spiritual death and reconciles us to God. Thank you. In His Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS JEDI KNIGHT
bluebell Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 (edited) Yet Christ himself declared that "in the ordinances [of the Melchizedek Priesthood], the power of godliness is manifest. And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh; for without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live" (D&C 84:20-22).If ordinances have no saving power, why do members of the Church expend vast resources of time and money on "redeeming the dead" in temples?Because it is through those ordinances that people access the saving power. It's like the difference between the sun and a window. One is the power of light, the other just gives us access to it. Edited December 16, 2011 by bluebell
Nevo Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 Because it is through those ordinances that people access the saving power. I don't disagree with this. I was just underlining that ordinances are essential to salvation in the Mormon view. Some seem to be uncomfortable with the idea expressed in the Third Article of Faith that, by means of Christ's atonement, people are saved "by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."
bluebell Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 I don't disagree with this. I was just underlining that ordinances are essential to salvation in the Mormon view. Some seem to be uncomfortable with the idea expressed in the Third Article of Faith that, by means of Christ's atonement, people are saved "by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."I don't think people are uncomfortable with the third article of faith. Some are uncomfortable with certain interpretations of it, like that the Atonement of Christ is insufficient to save us unless we make it capable with our own works.There's a difference between being saved through the Atonement of Christ and by our works. The 'through' is the power, the 'by' is the means to the power. LDS don't (or shouldn't) be bothered with the notion that both faith and words are necessary to be saved, but we have to be careful in making sure that we (and those who are trying to understand us) understand that neither faith, nor works, does the saving. They have no power at all. They are simply the means through which Christ has declared He will offer us salvation.When we misunderstand this concept we start to believe that if we aren't 'good enough' we won't be saved. If our works have to be added to Christ's grace to save us, then that is the logical conclusion. That's so wrong though. We aren't saved based on whether or not our works were good enough, if we were, then none of us would be saved. I have no doubt you know this and i'm not lecturing i'm just trying to explain why clarity is so important when discussing this topic.
Calm Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 Unfortunately too many people confuse the tool with the one who uses the tool.
Nevo Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 I don't think people are uncomfortable with the third article of faith. Some are uncomfortable with certain interpretations of it, like that the Atonement of Christ is insufficient to save us unless we make it capable with our own works.But the Atonement of Christ isn't sufficient to save us unless we obey the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. We must actively participate in our salvation. If we do not come to Christ, he can't save us. As Moroni puts it, "if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ" (Moroni 10:32; cf. Ether 12:27).
bluebell Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 But the Atonement of Christ isn't sufficient to save us unless we obey the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. We must actively participate in our salvation. If we do not come to Christ, he can't save us. As Moroni puts it, "if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ" (Moroni 10:32; cf. Ether 12:27).THat's like saying that the sun isn't sufficient to light our world unless we open a window. Our opening the window has no impact whatsoever on the power of the sun to produce light. All it does it open us up to receive it.Yes, we must actively participate in our salvation, but we must no confuse our participation with power. There is no power to save in our participation. All the power comes from Christ. Our participation just lets Him use His power on our behalf.Our works do not add to the sufficiency of Christ's Atonement, they are "sufficient tokens of good faith to establish a covenant with our Savior" (Stephen Robinson).Moroni 6:4-"And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith."We do not rely upon ourselves and Christ to be saved, we rely upon Christ alone. This is because it is Him alone who saves us. 1
Nominee Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 Right. It follows, then, that we are not saved unless we obey "the laws and ordinances of the gospel." Grace alone is not sufficient.Grace alone is sufficient to save us from death.
Nominee Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 (edited) Yet Christ himself declared that "in the ordinances [of the Melchizedek Priesthood], the power of godliness is manifest. And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh; for without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live" (D&C 84:20-22).If ordinances have no saving power, why do members of the Church expend vast resources of time and money on "redeeming the dead" in temples?Love and charity for our brothers and sisters who did not have the opportunity to be baptized or go to the temple in mortal life.add:In other words, I do it for them ~not for myself. Edited December 16, 2011 by Nominee
ged1650 Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 2 Nephi 31:5-21 tells us how grace works. We enter in by the Gate through Christ's Atoning Sacrifice. We rely Wholly on the merits of Him Who is Mighty to Save. We are saved by Grace, God's unmerited favor. If one believes any different, one hasn't read the book of Mormon.Ged 1
mfbukowski Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 Unfortunately too many people confuse the tool with the one who uses the tool.On the other hand, many people ARE tools.
Nevo Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 Grace alone is sufficient to save us from death.Right. Everyone will be resurrected, regardless of their actions. But to qualify for eternal life, one must obey the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
Nevo Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 (edited) 2 Nephi 31:5-21 tells us how grace works. We enter in by the Gate through Christ's Atoning Sacrifice. We rely Wholly on the merits of Him Who is Mighty to Save. We are saved by Grace, God's unmerited favor. If one believes any different, one hasn't read the book of Mormon.GedYes, we are saved by grace. But look at what you wrote: "we enter in..." "we rely..." Our salvation doesn't depend wholly upon God's initiative. It also depends on our own. I am not saying that we should take any credit for our salvation, "for it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13), but obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel remains a necessary precondition. Edited December 16, 2011 by Nevo
Nominee Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 (edited) Right. Everyone will be resurrected, regardless of their actions. But to qualify for eternal life, one must obey the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.Hmmm. No, not necessarily. Now if you were to ask if one must eventually understand the purpose of and live in accordance to the laws of God in order to be capable of exaltation? I would say yes. But I think one may need to understand the nature of God's laws in order to see the difference. Line by line... which is another reason it is only through Christ that we are saved. Edited December 16, 2011 by Nominee
ged1650 Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 The question is answered by what can we do? Mos 3:19 tells us we must submit our will to the will of the Father. That's all we can do. Anything else is relying on the arm of flesh.Ged
Calm Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 On the other hand, many people ARE tools. You don't know how much time I took constructing that sentence to avoid that interpretation....thanks a lot.
Calm Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 (edited) God's Grace is there, it doesn't change by our actions, it is not affected by our actions in the sense that God has to do anything different than what he has already done. Our actions---accepting the saving power that comes to us through our participation in his ordinances--open us up to Grace, but the Grace that is given us is not dependent on us opening up to it, it exists whether or not we partake of the ordinances. And if it was not there, nothing we did in terms of ordinance would make the slightest difference. To me that says Grace alone is sufficient even if we have to step up to accept it.However, I can also see that others who recognize that it cannot affect us if we refuse it perceive our acts as participation and therefore contribution to our salvation/eternal life. I don't have an issue with this phrasing as long as it is understood not to take a bit away from the totality of God's gift for us in grace. (I see this similar to those who see saying men are God's literal spirit children as lowering God to man's level when the reality is that it has no effect on God, but rather is raising man up to join with God, just as is believed by all Christians....just most believe it starts at a much later time in man's existence than LDS do.) Edited December 16, 2011 by calmoriah
orion88 Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 2 Nephi 31:5-21 tells us how grace works. We enter in by the Gate through Christ's Atoning Sacrifice. We rely Wholly on the merits of Him Who is Mighty to Save. We are saved by Grace, God's unmerited favor. If one believes any different, one hasn't read the book of Mormon.GedThis part sums it up too:“I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and ispreserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and doaccording to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another–I say, ifye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants”(Mosiah 2:21).
mfbukowski Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 You don't know how much time I took constructing that sentence to avoid that interpretation....thanks a lot.
Anakin7 Posted December 20, 2011 Author Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) We Access/Activate Jesus Christs True Grace [Charis] by way of True Faith [Pistis]. In His Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS JEDI KNIGHT Edited December 20, 2011 by Anakin7
Nominee Posted December 20, 2011 Posted December 20, 2011 "Salvation could not come to the world without the mediation of Jesus Christ." ~Joseph Smith
seriously honestly Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 No eternal life without Mormon membership".Technically true. The church website says "Eternal life is the phrase used in scripture to define the quality of life that our Eternal Father lives. The Lord declared, “This is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). Immortality is to live forever as a resurrected being. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, everyone will receive this gift. Eternal life, or exaltation, is to live in God's presence and to continue as families (see D&C 131:1–4). Like immortality, this gift is made possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. However, to inherit eternal life requires our “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (Articles of Faith 1:3)."So if one wants eternal life they are going to have to accept the Mormon faith and the laws and ordinances of the LDS gospel, whether in this life or the next. If they reject such they will not be able to have eternal life (exaltation). Like the above says, it is a gift made possible through the Atonment, but to actually have enternal life requires “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel”, laws and ordinances which are only found in--at least what LDS members believe to be--God's true church. So while members believe all will be saved through grace, not all will inherit eternal life. 1
bluebell Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 Technically true.The church website says "Eternal life is the phrase used in scripture to define the quality of life that our Eternal Father lives. The Lord declared, “This is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). Immortality is to live forever as a resurrected being. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, everyone will receive this gift. Eternal life, or exaltation, is to live in God's presence and to continue as families (see D&C 131:1–4). Like immortality, this gift is made possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. However, to inherit eternal life requires our “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (Articles of Faith 1:3)."So if one wants eternal life they are going to have to accept the Mormon faith and the laws and ordinances of the LDS gospel, whether in this life or the next.If one wants eternal life, they are going to have to accept God's laws and ordinances, whatever they are.It's not about being 'mormon'-church membership saves no one. It's about following God.Most mormons understand that. 1
seriously honestly Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 If one wants eternal life, they are going to have to accept God's laws and ordinances, whatever they are.It's not about being 'mormon'-church membership saves no one. It's about following God.Most mormons understand that.And what does it mean to follow God? Can one who rejects, in this life or the next, the "true teachings" of God through the prophets and apostles inherit eternal life? No, because they would not be following God by rejecting His "truth" and they would thus not be following the the laws and ordinances of the gospel (obviously). It's not about membership in a "hey look I have mormon membership so I get eternal life, yea" kind of way because not all Mormons will inherit eternal life either. But those that do inherit eternal life will be those who have accepted the Mormon doctrines and teachings (since they are a restoration of the truth) and have followed the law and ordinances of the gospel. Since that can only occcur through participation in the LDS chruch, then it stands that only faithful LDS members (and those who accepted it all after death) will be the ones inheriting eternal life.
bluebell Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 And what does it mean to follow God? Can one who rejects, in this life or the next, the "true teachings" of God through the prophets and apostles inherit eternal life? No, because they would not be following God by rejecting His "truth" and they would thus not be following the the laws and ordinances of the gospel (obviously). It's not about membership in a "hey look I have mormon membership so I get eternal life, yea" kind of way because not all Mormons will inherit eternal life either. But those that do inherit eternal life will be those who have accepted the Mormon doctrines and teachings (since they are a restoration of the truth) and have followed the law and ordinances of the gospel. Since that can only occcur through participation in the LDS chruch, then it stands that only faithful LDS members (and those who accepted it all after death) will be the ones inheriting eternal life.Those people who do inherit eternal life will be those who have accepted Christ, have followed His commandments to the best of their abilities, and repent of their sins.If you agree with this, then you agree with mormons about who will gain eternal life.
Recommended Posts