Jesus Christs Atonement And My Salvation

[saemo]

No. For now, God's plan is indeed to have us living in a state where we aren't with Him, but His ultimate plan, His work and His glory, is for us to live with and be like Him after this worldly probation period is over. He wants more than anything to give us everything we could ever imagine, and more. Jesus Christ saves us from not being able to receive these blessings.

As Moses 1:39 states, God's work and glory is to bring to pass man's immortality and eternal life. There is a very important distinction between these two things, and it's extremely important to understand that distinction if you want to properly understand God's plan of happiness.

We don't believe "God desired the fall of Adam and Eve" either, only that He knew it would be necessary. And Latter-day Saints reject the "original sin" concept. We believe we are held accountable for our own sins, not for Adam's transgression.

Well yes, and LDS don't understand original sin. No one thinks we accountable for any actual sins but our own. Original sin is not actual sin. It is a lost inheritance, brought about by the sin of Adam and Eve. That inheritance being restored to us by Jesus Christ.

The clearest way I see it is, Mormons believe God created us at the bottom of the ladder and we have to work up. Everyone else believes God created us at the top of the ladder, original sin knocked us down to the bottom, Jesus Christ redeems our fallen state, putting us back at the top where we were created to be. This is Salvation, which is wholly reliant on God and God alone. God did not have to save us, but He did, out of Love. We are called to live Christian lives, to be free from sin, as that is God's desire for us. Sin separates us from God, but Christ has redeemed us and through Him we are reconciled.

The LDS view...I can't see what we are saved from, or why.

Edited December 21, 2011 by saemo

[altersteve]

Well yes, and LDS don't understand original sin. No one thinks we accountable for any actual sins but our own. Original sin is not actual sin. It is a lost inheritance, brought about by the sin of Adam and Eve. That inheritance being restored to us by Jesus Christ.

We understand original sin just fine. It appears that you misunderstand the LDS view of salvation far more than we misunderstand your beliefs. By not being held accountable for Adam's transgression, we mean that we believe we are born pure, sinless, and innocent, rather than being born as a fallen human being. We fall because of our own sins, not because of the sin our first parents committed. This is why we are destined to receive eternal life when we are born.

Everyone else believes God created us at the top of the ladder, original sin knocked us down to the bottom, Jesus Christ redeems our fallen state, putting us back at the top where we were created to be. This is Salvation, which is wholly reliant on God and God alone. God did not have to save us, but He did, out of Love. We are called to live Christian lives, to be free from sin, as that is God's desire for us. Sin separates us from God, but Christ has redeemed us and through Him we are reconciled.

The LDS view...I can't see what we are saved from, or why.

Your understanding of LDS belief is inaccurate. We also believe God placed us at the top of the ladder, and that the Fall knocks us back down to the bottom as soon as it starts to affect us. We do not believe that we have to work our own way back up the ladder. We are entirely dependent on Jesus Christ and what He did for us, although we do believe that some effort on our part is necessary -- that the Atonement makes up for our shortcomings after we have done everything we can do. But this does not mean that we have the power to save ourselves, as you seem to be implying, and we do not believe that we believe we can add to what Christ has done. This is a common criticism that rests entirely on a total misunderstanding of the most fundamental tenet of LDS theology -- a misunderstanding which comes as a result of not having the proper desire to actually put forth any effort into knowing what we actually believe. If our critics would actually try to sincerely learn about LDS doctrine, then they might realize that we're far more Christian than they think we are.

But once again, you need to understand the distinction we make between "immortality" and "eternal life." Immortality is simply living forever. Eternal life, as the Savior explained in John 17:3, is far more than that. It is to know our Heavenly Father and our Redeemer, and "know" is something far more than to simply "know" in the way that I "know" my friends. It is to actually know Them, on a deeply personal level, and to enter into a relationship with God through which we are granted eternal life with Him in the eternities. Eternal life, as Christ later says in the same chapter, is to be one with the Father. So it's not just living with Him or being like Him, it's being one with Him. That's eternal life. In short, immortality is power over physical death, which is guaranteed to everyone, but eternal life is not guaranteed to anyone unless we accept it through the principles and ordinances of the gospel. We can, therefore, lose our salvation. But the beauty of it is that through Jesus Christ it can be regained. Eternal life, therefore, is power over spiritual death -- it is God's life. And I think this is completely consistent with everything you said above.

As I have explained before, we don't see salvation as being saved from eternal damnation, we see it more like being saved from not receiving the blessings that our Father wishes to give us. There might not seem to be a big difference there, but there's a huge difference.

Edited December 21, 2011 by altersteve

[saemo]

We understand original sin just fine. It appears that you misunderstand the LDS view of salvation far more than we misunderstand your beliefs. By not being held accountable for Adam's transgression, we mean that we believe we are born pure, sinless, and innocent, rather than being born as a fallen human being. We fall because of our own sins, not because of the sin our first parents committed. This is why we are destined to receive eternal life when we are born.

Right, which is why I say I can't see what you believe you are saved from, when the NT clearly teaches, by one man's sin we became fallen and by one man's sacrifice we are saved.

Your own leaders equate the LDS idea of salvation as climbing a ladder, that isn't something I just made up.

A friend of mine, who is not LDS and never has been, commented that Mormons believe they're saved from not being gods. Which, is accurate from what you are telling me here.

Edited December 21, 2011 by saemo

[cinepro]

And to my amazement again I saw written on the salvation topic relating to Mormonism - " Saved by Works, including faithfulness to church leaders,Mormon baptism,tithing, ordination,marriage, and secret temple rituals. No eternal life without Mormon membership".

Why do they never mention our True Belief and True Faith regarding True Salvation and True Grace ?. Any observations ?.

That's an odd way to put it. I'd feel much better if they let us explain if for ourselves. For example, they could just quote the Gospel Principles manual, which says:

[Mormons believe] exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.

[Mormons believe] to be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in Him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey His commandments.

[Mormons believe God] commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

1. We must be baptized.

2. We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

3. Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.

4. We must receive the temple endowment.

5. We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next.

[Mormons also believe] in addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to:

1. Love God and our neighbors.

2. Keep the commandments.

3. Repent of our wrongdoings.

4. Search out our kindred dead and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.

5. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.

6. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.

7. Have family and individual prayers every day.

8. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.

9. Study the scriptures.

10. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

Finally, [Mormons believe] each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow His direction in our individual lives.

That might not fit on their little pamphlet, but it's a much clearer expression of what we believe.

Edited December 21, 2011 by cinepro

[altersteve]

Right, which is why I say I can't see what you believe you are saved from, when the NT clearly teaches, by one man's sin we became fallen and by one man's sacrifice we are saved.

CFR. The New Testament teaches that the sin of Adam and Eve caused sin and death to enter the world. Through this, we will sin and become fallen ourselves. But we are not born fallen. There is nothing in the Bible that indicates otherwise. Sin, as you said, separates us from God, which keeps us from being able to live with Him again, and, once again, that's what Christ saves us from.

Your own leaders equate the LDS idea of salvation as climbing a ladder, that isn't something I just made up.

Yes. We climb the ladder, with Jesus Christ helping us up -- we are entirely dependent on Him. We don't believe we do it by ourselves, contrary to what you seem to think. That's completely ridiculous, and no LDS leader has ever taught that.

A friend of mine, who is not LDS and never has been, commented that Mormons believe they're saved from not being gods. Which, is accurate from what you are telling me here.

No, it's not. Becoming "gods" (whatever that means) is one of the blessings God has in store for us. But there's more to it than that. Again, we are saved from not being able to live with our Heavenly Father again. To say that we are simply "saved from not being gods" is a total caricature of our belief in Jesus Christ and His atoning work. Your friend doesn't know what he's talking about.

Edited December 21, 2011 by altersteve

[bluebell]

I can't figure out what Mormons believe they are saved from and why.

We're saved from physicaland spiritual death.

[Calm]

We're saved from physicaland spiritual death.

And eternal stagnation.

[bluebell]

And eternal stagnation.

That too!

[Anakin7]

We're saved from physicaland spiritual death.

That is True LDS Doctrine !!!.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[zeez]

Why do they never mention our True Belief and True Faith regarding True Salvation and True Grace ?. Any observations ?.

Because they want to look cooler than their competition. Why else?

[Anakin7]

It's all about a child of GOD accessing/activating True Grace by way of True Faith.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[saemo]

CFR. The New Testament teaches that the sin of Adam and Eve caused sin and death to enter the world. Through this, we will sin and become fallen ourselves. But we are not born fallen. There is nothing in the Bible that indicates otherwise. Sin, as you said, separates us from God, which keeps us from being able to live with Him again, and, once again, that's what Christ saves us from.

In conclusion, just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all, so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all. Romans 5:18

Yes. We climb the ladder, with Jesus Christ helping us up -- we are entirely dependent on Him. We don't believe we do it by ourselves, contrary to what you seem to think. That's completely ridiculous, and no LDS leader has ever taught that.

....after all you can do first. Jesus filling in the gaps, which is not total dependence.

Still not starting at the top though. Something happens at age 8 that knocks everyone down to the bottom, right? Everyone has to get the right steps in, even the dead.

No, it's not. Becoming "gods" (whatever that means) is one of the blessings God has in store for us. But there's more to it than that. Again, we are saved from not being able to live with our Heavenly Father again. To say that we are simply "saved from not being gods" is a total caricature of our belief in Jesus Christ and His atoning work. Your friend doesn't know what he's talking about.

Every doctrine and ordinance in Mormonism is centered on becoming a god.

Edited December 23, 2011 by saemo

[KevinG]

In conclusion, just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all, so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all. Romans 5:18

....after all you can do first. Jesus filling in the gaps, which is not total dependence.

It is since we can't do it all for ourselves. Ultimately we depend on Christ knowing all men fall short of perfection. That is total dependence- there is no other way to enter into God's presence.

Still not starting at the top though. Something happens at age 8 that knocks everyone down to the bottom, right? Everyone has to get the right steps in, even the dead.

Check your knowledge of LDS doctrine and the difference between accountability and sin. Christ's atonement covers all children n their innocence. The only thing that happens at age 8 is they start to become accountable for their own behavior and faith in Christ.

Every doctrine and ordinance in Mormonism is centered on becoming a god.

Wrong... every doctrine and ordinance is about coming unto Christ. Of course Christ wants to bring about the eternal life and exaltation of mankind (make us joint heirs). So the two are somewhat synonymous.

[JDave]

I can't figure out what Mormons believe they are saved from and why.

I think we're saved from our own uncool-ness. We just aren't as awesome as God is, but He would like to help us out if we are willing.

It seems that the road that takes us on has some rather serious hurdles, the most serious being that we just are not even capable enough to bootstrap ourselves and progress alone. Another major one would be that, although we have chosen this path we are not constant and we often fall short. Indeed we each fall away from God, through sin, and we can't recover on our own. Death seems to be part of the path from the onset, but it certainly constitutes a very visible problem from our mortal viewpoint. We obviously can't recover from that one on our own either.

I am guessing that other than the first point you are seeing the other items as not being saved 'from' something since they were actually instituted as part of the plan to help us? If so, that is an intriguing question that is forcing me to look at this from a different point of view.

A question for you on the 'ladder' business and starting at the top and/or bottom. I believe the Catholic point of view is that we are essentially created from nothing at birth -- we had no previous existence or experience. So are you saying that if it hadn't been for the Fall of Adam we would all be born at the top of the ladder? Are we all saved 'from' what Adam did?

[saemo]

I think we're saved from our own uncool-ness. We just aren't as awesome as God is, but He would like to help us out if we are willing.

It seems that the road that takes us on has some rather serious hurdles, the most serious being that we just are not even capable enough to bootstrap ourselves and progress alone. Another major one would be that, although we have chosen this path we are not constant and we often fall short. Indeed we each fall away from God, through sin, and we can't recover on our own. Death seems to be part of the path from the onset, but it certainly constitutes a very visible problem from our mortal viewpoint. We obviously can't recover from that one on our own either.

While I agree with your list here, we are always limited, in everything, and are confident always and everywhere in our reliance on Jesus Christ. Which isn't about progressing, but being who we were created to be. Living a reality.

I am guessing that other than the first point you are seeing the other items as not being saved 'from' something since they were actually instituted as part of the plan to help us? If so, that is an intriguing question that is forcing me to look at this from a different point of view.

Yes, that is what I'm saying. Thanks for "getting it".

A question for you on the 'ladder' business and starting at the top and/or bottom. I believe the Catholic point of view is that we are essentially created from nothing at birth -- we had no previous existence or experience. So are you saying that if it hadn't been for the Fall of Adam we would all be born at the top of the ladder? Are we all saved 'from' what Adam did?

Correct. Adam and Eve by their sin were separated from the immediate presence of God. Our inheritance was lost, if it were not, we would also be living in the immediate presence of God right now. But one cannot inherit what is not possessed by one's parents. Jesus reconciles us to God, which is reconciling us to Himself as He is God. In Him, through Him and with Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, we are reconciled to the Father. The inheritance that was lost through the sin of our First Parents, is restored. This is made very clear throughout the NT.

God created us to be with Him. He did not separate us from His presence, with a pat on the back and wish for good luck on finding our way back. God has all knowledge and prepared for us our Salvation, who is Jesus Christ, for the very reason that He desires us to be with Him. Reason; Logos; Word of God; is revealed to us in the Person of Jesus Christ.

Edited December 23, 2011 by saemo

[saemo]

It is since we can't do it all for ourselves. Ultimately we depend on Christ knowing all men fall short of perfection. That is total dependence- there is no other way to enter into God's presence.

Jesus has a strictly utilitarian purpose in Mormon thought (that's what I see).

Check your knowledge of LDS doctrine and the difference between accountability and sin. Christ's atonement covers all children n their innocence. The only thing that happens at age 8 is they start to become accountable for their own behavior and faith in Christ.

But when I think it through, the chain of events goes like this. Everyone is with God before being created, God separates everyone from Himself, except children under 8 have an automatic inheritance to the Kingdom of God. At age 8, this inheritance is lost (somehow, I have yet to figure out how), and from that point on, one has to work to gain that inheritance back. The first step being, the baptism of a person at 8 years old.

Wrong... every doctrine and ordinance is about coming unto Christ. Of course Christ wants to bring about the eternal life and exaltation of mankind (make us joint heirs). So the two are somewhat synonymous.

I guess what I see, is that the LDS view is pointed to the reward. Catholics are super careful about not seeking after a reward, as Jesus taught. Rather, seek to bring about the Kingdom of Heaven as Christ taught, through works of charity.

Peace to you as we await the coming of Our Lord. Marantha!

[Calm]

Every doctrine and ordinance in Mormonism is centered on becoming a god.

More like becoming one with God, which is also the Catholic goal, is it not? The difference is what LDS and Catholics understand in terms of what God will have us doing in and through this unity with him, how the unity operates. The emphasis on the family, which is a much greater concern for most LDS I know then what they will individually be experiencing in the next life, is based on the union with God as well, the external form of the unity being the community of God, the internal form being in part the individual's experience of being one with the Father, the Son and the Spirit.

[JDave]

I am going to separate my responses into two posts: trying to understand the Catholic point of view, and trying to understand the LDS point of view.

While I agree with your list here, we are always limited, in everything, and are confident always and everywhere in our reliance on Jesus Christ. Which isn't about progressing, but being who we were created to be. Living a reality.

So from a Catholic point of view we aren't "progressing" because we were created to be a certain way. Are we striving to be as we would have been without the Fall of Adam? Is our creation done in the way God intended, but through the birth process we inherit the fallen state? Or are we created in the fallen state? How do we know what we were created to be?

Correct. Adam and Eve by their sin were separated from the immediate presence of God. Our inheritance was lost, if it were not, we would also be living in the immediate presence of God right now. {SNIP} The inheritance that was lost through the sin of our First Parents, is restored. This is made very clear throughout the NT.

God saves us from the original sin, from the Fall of Adam. Are we also saved from our own mistakes and weaknesses? It sounds like any sins or weaknesses on our part are only due to our Fallen nature due to Adam, but that seems to detract too much from our personal responsibility to have faith in God, be reconciled, etc. Why even strive to improve when God, at the resurrection, will make us all "as we were" before the Fall?

God created us to be with Him. He did not separate us from His presence, with a pat on the back and wish for good luck on finding our way back. God has all knowledge and prepared for us our Salvation, who is Jesus Christ, for the very reason that He desires us to be with Him. Reason; Logos; Word of God; is revealed to us in the Person of Jesus Christ.

Then Jesus was prepared because God knew Adam would screw up? This sounds a bit like God's plan didn't work out as He intended. He meant for us to live in His presence but Adam ruined that so then God prepared a Savior as a backup plan to fix it. If God's plan was for us to be with Him as we were created, why even make a way for anyone to mess that up?

[JDave]

But when I think it through, the chain of events goes like this. Everyone is with God before being created, God separates everyone from Himself, except children under 8 have an automatic inheritance to the Kingdom of God. At age 8, this inheritance is lost (somehow, I have yet to figure out how), and from that point on, one has to work to gain that inheritance back. The first step being, the baptism of a person at 8 years old.

This seemed like a decent enough starting point for trying to clarify (and explore) LDS thought. You are mixing a bit of doctrine with speculation and tradition, but that isn't surprising since the relative paucity of revealed doctrine in this area leads some LDS people to mix it all up as well. I may do so here below

The 3rd chapter of Gospel Principles lays out pretty well the basics. I think one piece you are missing from the picture is our state of being before birth. As children of God we were already on a path to become like our Father. While mortality is a necessary step in our progression, it is not the only place where we can learn and grow and progress. If it were so then the many who have died as children would have been denied a necessary experience.

If we were progressing before birth, then surely we were also falling short before birth. We were not perfect in our pre-mortal state, nor were we completely innocent and pure. We teach that some were so far away from purity that they rebelled against God and chose to follow Lucifer, which led to their expulsion from Heaven. We do believe that we are born 'innocent', but that refers partly to the veil hiding any memory of our past which then creates a blank slate for us to work with in this life, and it partly refers to the Atonement covering all sins from our pre-mortal life (Alma 13:3-5, 2 Ne. 25:16 infinite atonement).

From this perspective we don't really lose any inheritance at age 8. No physical or spiritual transformation happens 2922 days after we are born (or 2921 days if the leap years are awry). Age 8 is simply the declared age for the church when someone can covenant with God and be baptized. It is linked to the age of accountability and some in the LDS church may believe that the day before a kid's 8th birthday the kid is immune to temptation and incapable of sinning, and furthermore they are completely pure and innocent and ready to enter God's presence since they are as He is. I don't, however, think that is reasonably or doctrinally true.

Also from this perspective we are truly saved from our sins and weaknesses, regardless of when they occurred. As children of God we are promised an inheritance, but that inheritance is lost due to our sins. Only Christ can reconcile us to God, and only through the Atonement of Christ can we be enabled to progress to be one with God.

I guess what I see, is that the LDS view is pointed to the reward. Catholics are super careful about not seeking after a reward, as Jesus taught. Rather, seek to bring about the Kingdom of Heaven as Christ taught, through works of charity.

I'm not sure how much LDS teachings 'point to a reward' any more than Catholic teachings do. I would guess that reviewing teachings of LDS and Catholic leaders we could find some from either side that emphasize rewards and others that minimize rewards. I suspect a similar cross-section would appear if the general lay population of the churches were inspected.

[coolrok7]

Recently while waiting for my wife to get off work I visited a non LDS Christian Church [sheperd Of The Hills] located in Porter Ranch Ca. While walking around one of the buildings there I picked up a Brocure entitled - My Faith Now.com, and it was an Religion Comparison Chart on Christianity/Mormonism/Islam/Judaism. It gave explanations of these religions concerning there belief system on various topics - Key Person/Key Writtings/Who is God ?/Who is Jesus ?/Who is the Holy Spirit ? /Salvation/Afterlife. And to my amazement again I saw written on the salvation topic relating to Mormonism - " Saved by Works, including faithfulness to church leaders,Mormon baptism,tithing, ordination,marriage, and secret temple rituals. No eternal life without Mormon membership".

Why do they never mention our True Belief and True Faith regarding True Salvation and True Grace ?. Any observations ?.

I realize that Mormons are just as sincere in their faith as I am in mine so sincerity of belief is not the issue as I see it but where ones faith is placed is. To me this has nothing to do with hating Mormons or anyone for that matter but the doctrine Mormons and others believe that is not Biblical.

The truthfulness of the claims made is the issue at hand and are they in fact in line with Biblical teaching? To that we would disagree that they are in line at critical points of doctrine as that doctrine ends up being redefined.

The Bible is called into question (which is why the need for other supposed Scripture) here as stated by Joseph and LeGrand Richards in which underlies my concerns of Mormon teaching in a major way in the following:

for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passage of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible. . .—Joseph Smith

the everlasting gospel could not be discovered through reading the Bible alone. . .this is the only Christian church in the world that did not have to rely upon the Bible for its organization and government. . . (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, LeGrand Richards, p.40)

Our purpose or focus (those not Mormon, Christian in their faith) is on the preaching and promulgation of the Biblical Gospel in which one believes in and therefore has salvation (in regards to contrasting Christian teaching with others teaching as referred to in the mentioned brochure):

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Not in the promoting of the Mormonism of Joseph Smith (i.e. the Mormon gospel) in which we believe is not the, “True Belief. . .True Faith. . .True Salvation. . .True Grace” without “secret [sacred] temple rituals” as the Jerusalem Temple was fulfilled in the death of Jesus as the sacrifice for sin (there being no longer a need for a Temple since its destruction in A.D. 70, even before at the death of Jesus):

. . .God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, . . . (History of the Church, Joseph Smith Jr., April 1844, 6:305)

“As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may be”— Lorenzo Snow

The first principles of men are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. . . . (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.354)

The Gospel of the Son of God that has been revealed is a plan or system of laws and ordinances, by strict obedience to which the people who inhabit this earth are assured that they may return again into the presence of the Father and the Son. (quoted in the pamphlet entitled, BRIGHAM YOUNG PROPHET STATESMAN PIONEER, 11/81; JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, 13:233, Brigham Young)

Our Heavenly Parents have through aeons of time and a multitude of experiences gradually become acquainted with and applied in their lives an untold number of these everlasting laws. As they learned these verities and how to operate them, these laws thereby became subject unto Elohim and henceforth were His laws—or, in other words, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. (The Gospel Through the Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.4)

Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws. (The Gospel Through the Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.51)

The Mystery Religions, pagan rivals of Christianity, taught emphatically the doctrine that “men may become Gods.” Hermeticism, which had its rise in Egypt in the second or third centuries B.C., was a prominent religion in the Mediterranean world during the period of the rise of Christianity. Its literature, The Corpus Hermeticum, professes to be revelations to Hermes from his divine father and teacher. Hermes declared: “We must not shrink from saying that a man on earth is a mortal god, and that God in heaven is an immortal man.” This thought very closely resembles the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and of President Lorenzo Snow. (The Gospel Through the Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.110)

The last time I checked, “revelations to Hermes” was not part of, “the standard works of the Church” (might as well be though in that they have adopted their teaching on “men may become gods”). To directly align one’s teaching with pagan ideas is not in line with Biblical teaching.

In the 1985 Gospel Principles manual, in the chapter on Exaltation, it says the following:

REQUIREMENTS FOR EXALTATION

. . .There are specific ordinances we must have received to be exalted:

1. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the

Church of Jesus Christ.

2. We must receive the Holy Ghost.

3. We must receive the temple endowment.

4. We must be married for time and eternity.

In addition to the required ordinances, there are also many laws we have to obey to qualify for exaltation--We must . . . (p.291)

This is the way our Heavenly Father became a God. . . .Joseph Smith taught, “it is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . .he was once a man like us, . . .God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (p.293; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp.345-46[King Follet Discourse])

Elder Boyd C. Packer in a Church video on temples (which is all about following Mormon laws/ordinances:

If you understand why we build Temples you must understand first that we believe in revelation, and in the restoration of the Gospel, and to restore means to bring back something that was lost. Not a new invention but a restoration of that which is/was known anciently.

During an interview (in the “God Makers” video) Dr. Harold Goodman, who was President of the Mormon Mission in England, stated:

As one of our great prophets and President of the Church has indicated, As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.” So you can see why the Temple is so important to the LDS [man]: because if he is worthy to go to the Temple and there receive the sacred ordinances and covenants and keep them, he can eventually grow into becoming a god himself.

[Storm Rider]

In conclusion, just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all, so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all. Romans 5:18

....after all you can do first. Jesus filling in the gaps, which is not total dependence.

Still not starting at the top though. Something happens at age 8 that knocks everyone down to the bottom, right? Everyone has to get the right steps in, even the dead.

Every doctrine and ordinance in Mormonism is centered on becoming a god.

Hello Saemo,

I have heard others outside the Church say the same thing before and it always escapes me how they arrived at that conclusion. I can say that as a LDS what I occupy my thoughts about have very little to do with being a god. Although I recognize that the Savior offers each of us to be a joint-heir with him, it is not what captures my mind. I am far too busy trying to emulate Christ, to learn to be his disciple more fully, to hear his voice at all times and in all places, to strive to be strong enough to keeping taking one more step toward God, acknowledging all the while that I am a sinner and fall so very short of Him; rejoicing that in Him I am made whole; that every Sunday when I partake of the Sacrament I am made pure again; repenting takes a good part of my thoughts; resisting the ease of becoming too comfortable in my life. These are the things I think about.

This does not deny the reason of my creation. God has created us to to be like him. He did not create us so that he could have a multitude of sycophants to sing him praises; he does not need that. He has a purpose in our being and he desires each of us to return to him. What purpose do you think he has in our being?

[JDave]

I realize that Mormons are just as sincere in their faith as I am in mine so sincerity of belief is not the issue as I see it but where ones faith is placed is. To me this has nothing to do with hating Mormons or anyone for that matter but the doctrine Mormons and others believe that is not Biblical.

coolrok7,

You posted a lot of stuff, but not a lot that was on topic.

[coolrok7]

JDave, I was responding to Anakin (aka Tanyan as I originally knew him from ZLMB). I met him in person later after he invited me to this board and his thread op (as we both attended and met in person at the Mormon/Evangelical dialogue at Mariners here in southern California, just down the street from the Newport Beach temple. I didn't know he was there till later as I hadn't met him in person before, only typed words on a screen).

I think your opinion (your prerogative) is just that to which you are entitled to in which I disagree with (my prerogative). I can decide for myself in how I respond. I don't tell you or anyone how they are to respond, never have.

[TAO]

Jesus has a strictly utilitarian purpose in Mormon thought (that's what I see).

Sameo, not utilitarian. Pragmatic.

We look at him as a role model, someone who we should become like. He loves us, and we love him. He has a duty to us, and we have a duty to him. He is personal to us... and we are personal to him. So yes, pragmatic... but pragmatic in the way family members love one another... pragmatic in the way that we choose to be loyal to our friends, and dedicate ourselves to our spouses. That type of pragmatic.

But when I think it through, the chain of events goes like this. Everyone is with God before being created, God separates everyone from Himself, except children under 8 have an automatic inheritance to the Kingdom of God. At age 8, this inheritance is lost (somehow, I have yet to figure out how), and from that point on, one has to work to gain that inheritance back. The first step being, the baptism of a person at 8 years old.

Mmm... let me explain better.

1) Correct, everyone was with God in the beginning.

2) Not quite correct, Christ does not separate himself from everyone. Rather, through grace, he submits himself to the sins of children below the age of accountability.

3) Correct, the age of accountability comes at an arbitrary age, but, that isn't any less arbitrary than any other age. In addition, people who are not responsible at that age will not be held accountable until they are responsible (because of say, mental conditions).

4) Not quite correct, we don't have to work to achieve that grace back. We have to work to maintain that grace. We must have faith in him and follow his commandments. Then, in the end, we will be judged.

5) Baptism is required because the Lord commanded it. Thus why we baptize for the dead; so the dead may receive the opportunity to do so if they wish.

Hopefully that explains it somewhat better. Sorry if it was confusing =P.

I guess what I see, is that the LDS view is pointed to the reward. Catholics are super careful about not seeking after a reward, as Jesus taught. Rather, seek to bring about the Kingdom of Heaven as Christ taught, through works of charity.

Peace to you as we await the coming of Our Lord. Marantha!

Not reward, no. Rather, purpose. We know why we are here... and we know what the meaning of all the trials of life are. We know that temptations and all the hassles of life will be but a moment. And we know, what heaven is like. We know it is a place where we can serve others, and become like God, perfectly meek, humble, individuals, whose work and glory is helping their children forever and ever. That is what it means to me. Not reward... but purpose... and a life where I can do all I can... to help him. I like that. =) I would love to be able to serve in that manner... to become like God... not only in ability... but in attitude as well.

Best of Wishes to you as well =),

-TAO

Edited December 24, 2011 by TAO

[Nominee]

JDave, I was responding to Anakin (aka Tanyan as I originally knew him from ZLMB). I met him in person later after he invited me to this board and his thread op (as we both attended and met in person at the Mormon/Evangelical dialogue at Mariners here in southern California, just down the street from the Newport Beach temple. I didn't know he was there till later as I hadn't met him in person before, only typed words on a screen).

I think your opinion (your prerogative) is just that to which you are entitled to in which I disagree with (my prerogative). I can decide for myself in how I respond. I don't tell you or anyone how they are to respond, never have.

The "personal message" feature is available to all of us here, you included, if a one on one conversation with Anikan is what you are trying to have.