Preside Over 12 Deacons

[Saints Alive]

"And again, verily I say unto you, the duty of a president over the office of a ^adeacon is to preside over twelve deacons, to sit in council with them, and to ^bteach them their duty, ^cedifying one another, as it is given according to the covenants." D&C 107:85

What happens when there are more than 12 Deacons, 24 Teachers, 48 Priests, or 96 Elders? I suppose generally the ward would split before there were 96 Elders or 48 Priests, It would seem that in a larger ward it would be entirely possible for there to be more than 12 deacons. Does anyone have any experience with this or know what happens? Is a second Deacon’s quorum formed?

[LeSellers]

What happens when there are more than 12 Deacons, 24 Teachers, 48 Priests, or 96 Elders? I suppose generally the ward would split before there were 96 Elders or 48 Priests, It would seem that in a larger ward it would be entirely possible for there to be more than 12 deacons. Does anyone have any experience with this or know what happens? Is a second Deacon’s quorum formed?

There have been many wards in which there are two Deacons' quorums. I do not recall any with more than a single Teachers' quorum, but that's an artifact of my limited observations, I'm sure.

As to dividing a ward with more than 96 Elders, I was the Elders' quorum president with over a hundred members on the roles, but less than 70 who were actually Elders (I was a Seventy at the time): the others were Aaronic Priesthood holders (or had no Priesthood at all). Since this was a very large ward (later divided into three wards in less than five years), my gut feeling is that any ward with more than 96 Elders is too large to be a single ward in any case, even if the quorum needed to be split due to its having too many Elders.

Lehi

Edited December 8, 2011 by LeSellers

[Saints Alive]

I have always been in small wards where we were lucky to have enough Deacons to pass sacrament. How are the two quorums divided? I assume there is a presidency for each.

[Freedom]

Dividing the quorums is at the bishops discretion. I was in a ward where we had more than 12 deacons but it only lasted that way for 6 months, and only 11 were coming out regularly so we didn't split the quorum. I have been to many large wards and have never seen one with too many elders, most men who are active become high priests so the quorum numbers are always kept in balance. I attended a ward in Provo which was absolutely enourmous. They filled the chapel, the overflow and part of the gym. There were three gospel doctrine classes and the high priests group was divided into two because there wasn't a room large enough to fit them all. This was despite the fact that the ward also provided 4 bishoprics for byu wards. I was an elder at the time so I was very surprised to attend the quorum meeting in a small class room. The entire quorum consisted of 4 active elders. I have no idea how many inactive's there were but it bemused me to such an extent that I still remember it like it was yesterday. They were the only priesthood holders in the building that were not wearing white shirts and one of the men wasn't even wearing a tie. The elders quorum president had a scruffy mustache and needed a hair cut. Their appearance of course had no relevance to their worthiness, they were just such a sharp contrast to the other general authority clones in the ward with the same colored dark suits.

[Freedom]

I have always been in small wards where we were lucky to have enough Deacons to pass sacrament. How are the two quorums divided? I assume there is a presidency for each.

Excactly, but you can imagine that creating multiple quorums makes like very difficult for the bishop. They should have their own separate presidency meeting and should send a representative to the bishops youth council. You could have twice as many beehives (12-13 year old girls) with one class president but two deacons quorum presidents. From my observations, wards of this size become very difficult to manage. Too many people without callings, too many callings to coordinate, and the needy can get overlooked. People who need to growth the most tend not to be given responsible callings because there so many capable people twiddling their thumbs.

[LeSellers]

I have always been in small wards where we were lucky to have enough Deacons to pass sacrament. How are the two quorums divided? I assume there is a presidency for each.

Dividing the quorums is at the bishops discretion. I was in a ward where we had more than 12 deacons but it only lasted that way for 6 months, and only 11 were coming out regularly so we didn't split the quorum.

A "Freedom" said, it's up to the President of the Aaronic Priesthood (bishop) in the affected ward. However, I have a hard time imagining any Deacon's quorum with more than a dozen active Deacons because (scripture aside, which does not mean I am discounting it) there just are no (or nearly so) 12-year olds who can effectively lead and teach more than a dozen of their age-peers (the family-centered educated are probable exceptions, but even then ...). Our LDS youngsters are not so much better than their peers in having been coddled and smothered by the culture that demands they be dependent children until they're thirty-five or so.

Lehi

[BCSpace]

my gut feeling is that any ward with more than 96 Elders is too large to be a single ward in any case

Too bad the scriptures don't count prospective Elders. I guess they're all deacons, teachers and priests.

[LeSellers]

Too bad the scriptures don't count prospective Elders. I guess they're all deacons, teachers and priests.

Well, as they're not in the Deacons' or Teachers' quorums, they are not presided over by the 13- or 15-year-old president, so their number doesn't matter.

Someone mentioned the Young Women's class presidents and how they can preside over any number of their class members. That's true, but there is a distinction: the Young Women do not have specific "duties" as a Priesthood holder does, so they do not have a scriptural responsibility to "teach them their duty".

It is profound to me that, while the bishop calls the quorum instructors and advisers, the responsibility to "teach them their duty" remains with the quorum president, and, because it is his responsibility, he can tell that instructor or adviser what he wants done, and the adult should (indeed, must) take his marching orders from a "kid".

Lehi

[Freedom]

A "Freedom" said, it's up to the President of the Aaronic Priesthood (bishop) in the affected ward. However, I have a hard time imagining any Deacon's quorum with more than a dozen active Deacons because (scripture aside, which does not mean I am discounting it) there just are no (or nearly so) 12-year olds who can effectively lead and teach more than a dozen of their age-peers (the family-centered educated are probable exceptions, but even then ...). Our LDS youngsters are not so much better than their peers in having been coddled and smothered by the culture that demands they be dependent children until they're thirty-five or so.

Lehi

More to the point, I could not imagine being the adviser trying to keep a handle on 15 twelve year old boys for 45 minutes.

[Saints Alive]

...because it is his responsibility, he can tell that instructor or adviser what he wants done, and the adult should (indeed, must) take his marching orders from a "kid".

Lehi

Yeah but how often does that happen? How often is there a Deacon with the where-with-all to be able to effectively teach and manage his peers.

[LeSellers]

How often is there a Deacon with the where-with-all to be able to effectively teach and manage his peers.

Less often than it could, or should, to be sure. But I have seen a few Deacons' and Teachers' quorum presidents with strong bishops and good fathers who trained their sons/quorum leaders to actually take that responsibility and magnify their callings.

As I said earlier, I believe that the culture (not least of which the government-controlled, tax-funded school system) has destroyed the natural leadership that most children have. Remember, Admiral Farragut commanded his first ship at age 13 (sorry, he was 12). But he did not have the handicap of having had a gctf-welfare school teacher, Big Bird, or his mother tell him, "you're just a child."

Lehi

Edited December 8, 2011 by LeSellers

[Stargazer]

What happens when there are more than 12 Deacons, 24 Teachers, 48 Priests, or 96 Elders? I suppose generally the ward would split before there were 96 Elders or 48 Priests, It would seem that in a larger ward it would be entirely possible for there to be more than 12 deacons. Does anyone have any experience with this or know what happens? Is a second Deacon’s quorum formed?

I have been in a ward with two Deacon's quorums; I don't know how long this had been or continued to be the case.

As to Elder's quorums, when I was ordained an Elder, Elder's quorums were actually stake- or district-wide. In the Bristol District of the England Southwest Mission (over which John M. Madsen, now an emeritus General Authority, presided) in 1971 there was exactly one Elders quorum because there were fewer than 96 elders in the district. Each branch (or ward) had a group leader of elders, a similar organization to that of the High Priests in a stake. This prevailed until at least 1974 and I don't know when it changed, but it did eventually, to the current system of having one Elders quorum in each ward or branch.

[cinepro]

My current ward had 2 Elder's Quorums for several years (a "North" quorum and "South" quorum, geographically divided). We had two presidencies, but actual attendance was always between 15-25 people so we all met together. The presidencies alternated weeks for conducting.

Eventually enough people moved out that the quorums were reunited.

We still have two Gospel Doctrine classes, divided by last name with A-M in one class and N-Z in the other, with three teachers that rotate through the weeks and classes.

Edited December 8, 2011 by cinepro

[Saints Alive]

I have been to several wards with multiple gospel doctrine classes, they always had a set teacher and either were open to whoever wanted to go to which or were divided by age.

on a related note, how is it decided whether there is an elders quorum or group? are there still elders groups?

[Freedom]

Melchizedek Priesthood quorums are organized by the stake. I have never seen EQ groups and the policy manual does not mention them from what I can see.

[Saints Alive]

It seems like it is something that happened once in branches in missions / districts

[Stargazer]

Melchizedek Priesthood quorums are organized by the stake. I have never seen EQ groups and the policy manual does not mention them from what I can see.

Yes, this is the case. The stake calls the quorum president, because while the Bishop is the President of the Aaronic Priesthood in his ward, the Stake President is the President also of the Melchizedek Priesthood in his stake.

EQ groups no longer exist so far as I am aware. But they used to exist, at least up into the late 1970s, when somewhere in there the Church changed policy to put one EQ in each ward. I can see EQ groups existing in sparsely organized districts in missions.

[Saints Alive]

I guess I have a hard time understanding why there is an Elders Quorum but the High Priest remain in groups. Couldn't the same reasoning that nessesitated EQ in every ward nessesitate HP Quorums in every ward?

[ged1650]

I attended a ward with 2 Elder's quorums, an East and West quorum. This was in an older part of Mesa, Az. There were 150 Elders but the area was full of newly weds and nearly deads so splitting the ward was not an option. The Elders were very transient.

I was in both quorums and it was a necessary way to do business and make the ward manageable.

The best deacons quorum president I dealt with was not home schooled. The poor child had to sit six hours a day and be taught by a group of teachers in a welfare school. His leadership was neither stifled nor repressed. Parental involvement is the key. His father taught him what to do as a deacon's quorum president. I did my job as a Young Men's President, so the young man (which is how I treated him) could function in his calling.

Ged

[Avatar4321]

I guess I have a hard time understanding why there is an Elders Quorum but the High Priest remain in groups. Couldn't the same reasoning that nessesitated EQ in every ward nessesitate HP Quorums in every ward?

A High Priest quorum can't be organized in every single ward in a stake because the Stake President is the High Priest Quorums President. In order to have separate Quorums, you'd need a High Priest Quorum President in each ward. Needless to say, that would be problematic because then youd have multiple Stake Presidents in a Stake.

And yes a Deacons quorum would be divided in a ward if the need arose.

One question I always asked while I was in the Singles ward is why we never organized the Priests quorum because there were usually enough priests and the Bishop is the President of that quorum. It always seemed like it might be good to have the priests who could support one another rather than lost in an Elders quorum as prospective elders. But I don't recieve the inspiration. So that sufficient to me.

[Grundelwalken]

What happens when there are more than 12 Deacons, 24 Teachers, 48 Priests, or 96 Elders? I suppose generally the ward would split before there were 96 Elders or 48 Priests, It would seem that in a larger ward it would be entirely possible for there to be more than 12 deacons. Does anyone have any experience with this or know what happens? Is a second Deacon’s quorum formed?

When I was a deacon our ward was large enough that we had two deacons quorums. We had about 30 deacons and both quorums had their own presidency. I don't recall how we were divided but it all seemed pretty natural at the time.

Since those days, the ward sizes have been changed so I haven't encountered that in any of our wards. Where I live now, most wards feel lucky if they have more than a couple of deacons/teachers/priests in the AP. That is one of the problems in having smaller ward sizes and older populations. MW

Edited December 8, 2011 by Grundelwalken

[Stargazer]

When I was a deacon our ward was large enough that we had two deacons quorums. We had about 30 deacons and both quorums had their own presidency. I don't recall how we were divided but it all seemed pretty natural at the time.

Since those days, the ward sizes have been changed so I haven't encountered that in any of our wards. Where I live now, most wards feel lucky if they have more than a couple of deacons/teachers/priests in the AP. That is one of the problems in having smaller ward sizes and older populations. MW

One of the problems of Latter-day Saints choosing to limit their family size to below optimum -- my own opinion, I don't expect agreement on this.

But then, I have 12 children and about as many grandchildren.

[cinepro]

One of the problems of Latter-day Saints choosing to limit their family size to below optimum -- my own opinion, I don't expect agreement on this.

It was my impression that LDS couples usually seek counsel from the Lord on the matter of having children (or were supposed to), so it would seem that the Lord has been inspiring LDS to have as many kids as they are having, however many that might be.

I know that when my wife and I prayed about it, we received a revelation telling us that there were no more spirits waiting to come down to our family, and that if we were to have another child we would be bogarting a spirit that was intended for another family.

Edited December 8, 2011 by cinepro

[Hamba Tuhan]

When I was a student in America, I served as the elders quorum president in a singles ward. By mid year, we had over 100 active elders in the quorum, so the stake presidency split it. I remained the president of the first quorum of elders, and another man was called to preside over the second quorum. I don't recall how the division was made, but I don't think it was entirely geographic.

[Hamba Tuhan]

How often is there a Deacon with the where-with-all to be able to effectively teach and manage his peers.

This is precisely what we train the YM in our ward to do, and it works.