Respect For An Lds Church

[Mariner]

Over on the Internet Anti-Mormonism thread the OP asks, "Why do some people have to be so mean and nasty on the internet when it comes to the LDS faith?" Later in the thread, someone states that former members of the Church are some of the worst offenders.

In fact, if one looks at some of the content on many of the boards set up mainly for people who are leaving, or have left, the LDS Church (and leaving the Church is a process), one often finds expressions of nostalgia, a certain sense of loss, and some regret. This regret is not for having left the Church, rather it comes from the feeling of having been left by the Church.

With the mod's permission, and with that of the author (Muscogean), I am posting below a short piece that reflects the feelings and attitude of a lot of former members when it comes to the Church they grew up in and remember, often with great fondness.

I am posting this piece in the hope that it can help demonstrate how much positive common ground there can be among former and present members in terms of respect for an LDS Church and its people. There is no meanness or nastiness here.

I hope you will take the time to read this short remembrance by an apostate, and would enjoy seeing your comments.

There were several families of Democrats. A middle aged man claimed to be a Communist. The bishop was a mortician, who sometimes had the ward youth come to his family business for interviews (groan). There were Jewish converts and an elderly man who spoke only German. He came ever Sunday and sat on a hard bench, not understanding a word. There was a wonderful old sister in the choir who often sang, "I come to the garden alone." Her husband was a "polygamist," who you never saw in church. The bishop would eventually give her a temple recommend to get her endowments (based of her faithfulness). There was the family who owned the local grocery store and hired ward youth. There were Nephi's, Alma's and one loud memorable Brigham. There was the "untouchable" route in ward teaching, twenty some families who never let you past the front screen, and often slammed the door on you (but you still went back). One of them lost a teenage son, and I was invited in the next month. We became friends and I baptized the two younger children (though the divorced mom never came to church for anything).

The building had been dedicated by a prophet, a polygamist. It was California Mission style, with blue and white tile. There were huge beams across the tall ceiling and beautiful dark wood across the stage and in the pulpit and choir seats. A stained glass window above showed Jesus ascending toward Heaven. Six heavy wooden doors opened to the street to catch the ocean breezes. The church sat right on the corner, three steps up from the street. The next church down the street was a tiny "Church of the Firstborn and Kingdom of God." Folks wondered if it had a Mormon connection. MIA consisted of M-Men and Gleaners and Mormon dances were never to be missed (also road shows, dance festivals and ward dinners).

The year was 1958 and I was baptized (a college guy) into Jesus and the church (in those days it was a church, not a corporation). The church financial stats were still given at conference time. Many weddings were held in the chapel, as only perhaps half the youth opted for temple marriage. Numerous sailors came for services and hopefully an invitation to dinner (we were a Naval shipyard town). Baptisms were in a recessed area next to the kitchen, funerals were always crowded. There was only a tiny parking lot, everyone just parked on the streets nearby. My wedding reception was held in the old Recreation Hall. We covered up the broken window which somehow never got fixed...

That was the Latter-day Saints world over fifty years ago. I almost cried when I heard the grand old building caught fire during Sacrament meeting and burnt to the ground a few years ago. It was never rebuilt. Perhaps because that church no longer exists, only in memories. Who stole the quirky old Mormon church? I suspect someone in Salt Lake... An empire builder. If it were still around, you might find me sitting/smiling in the congregation, though never on the back row, which our bishop used for "surprise testimony bearing." My best friend got called once, and ducked out a door as he was coming forth (cracked the church up). At his mission farewell the same buddy said just six words, "I'm grateful for my angel mother," and sat down. The look on the bishop's face was priceless.

Once I was a tad late for early morning priesthood (my non-member mom always got me up). As I sat down, the bishop said quietly, "For those arriving late, once again, it is my sad duty to announce the death of our beloved prophet, David O. McKay." He had been the only prophet I knew. I thought he would live forever...

Muscogean

[KevinG]

(in those days it was a church, not a corporation). The church financial stats were still given at conference time.

At least we know why he left.

[Sky]

This is a good story and I appreciate the non-confrontational tone, except of course for the part about the Church being a corporation.

[Pahoran]

This is a good story and I appreciate the non-confrontational tone, except of course for the part about the Church being a corporation.

Actually if you read it carefully, you discover that the whole thing is a whine about how it's the fault of "someone in Salt Lake" that that ward, and indeed the whole world, isn't exactly the same as it was in 1958. Every sentence tells the same story: the Church leadership has ruined everything.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Scott Lloyd]

Actually if you read it carefully, you discover that the whole thing is a whine about how it's the fault of "someone in Salt Lake" that that ward, and indeed the whole world, isn't exactly the same as it was in 1958. Every sentence tells the same story: the Church leadership has ruined everything.

Regards,

Pahoran

Indeed. The world turns; times change; people grow old and die. Fashions, preferences, demographics, economics, building styles, programs, etc. come and go with each passing generation. How is that the Church's fault?

I, like Pahoran, see a disconnect here.

Edited December 7, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[Sky]

Actually if you read it carefully, you discover that the whole thing is a whine about how it's the fault of "someone in Salt Lake" that that ward, and indeed the whole world, isn't exactly the same as it was in 1958. Every sentence tells the same story: the Church leadership has ruined everything.

Regards,

Pahoran

Granted, there are things not to like about it, but I've seen a lot worse. I'd like to believe that not all ex-Mormons are angry and bitter. So I guess I'll take any improvement I can get.

[Mariner]

Daddy G, Pahoran, Scott and Sky,

As with many issues, actives and apostates do not focus on the same components or issues when they look at a description or statement of belief or a position.

Along with the part about the corporation, I trust you also noticed that the author showed a strong and positive emotional attachment to the people he mentioned, including David O. McKay, and even the ward house building itself.

So, thanks for at least reading this and thanks for your comments.

Really.

[Scott Lloyd]

Daddy G, Pahoran, Scott and Sky,

As with many issues, actives and apostates do not focus on the same components or issues when they look at a description or statement of belief or a position.

Along with the part about the corporation, I trust you also noticed that the author showed a strong and positive emotional attachment to the people he mentioned, including David O. McKay, and even the ward house building itself.

So, thanks for at least reading this and thanks for your comments.

Really.

I myself am prone to nostalgia about the ward in which I grew up, the road shows, the Gold and Green balls, the people, the old meetinghouse, Mutual, junior Sunday School, going to Primary after school, etc. And I loved President McKay, who died when I was about 16.

But I don't blame the Church for the fact that times change.

[Pahoran]

I myself am prone to nostalgia about the ward in which I grew up, the road shows, the Gold and Green balls, the people, the old meetinghouse, Mutual, junior Sunday School, going to Primary after school, etc. And I loved President McKay, who died when I was about 16.

But I don't blame the Church for the fact that times change.

You don't?

But Scott, haven't you heard? All of the world's ills, from rising hemlines to rising sea levels, are the fault of the empire-builders in Salt Lake. Get with the program!

Actually Mariner's source has hit upon an infallible formula. Reminisce about the good old days and blame the Church for whatever has changed since then, and an uncritical audience -- especially a gang of festering haters like RfM -- will lap it up.

Regards,

Pahoran

[bluebell]

My thoughts on it are that it has the same 'flavor' as most memories from people in that generation-that everything was better in the good old days and the new generations have ruined everything.

I can appreciate that he remembers his era with fondness but there's really not much else to get out of it.

[Bob Crockett]

And I don't believe or credit anonymous exit stories. I remember seeing in the past few years a long story about a fellow called to be a mission president who posted anonymously, a long post, his distaste for a certain temple ordinance. That post could have been made up by anybody, but most thought it authentic.

[Avatar4321]

And I don't believe or credit anonymous exit stories. I remember seeing in the past few years a long story about a fellow called to be a mission president who posted anonymously, a long post, his distaste for a certain temple ordinance. That post could have been made up by anybody, but most thought it authentic.

I never did. Especially when they got obvious things incredibly wrong.

[KevinG]

Man, you botch one virgin sacrifice in the Temple and the complaints never end.

[Mariner]

Those who have the impression that this individual left the Church because the Church changed would be missing the point. He left the Church because he found out the real history of the Church - the one that was not taught, or even mentioned - in the 1950s and 1960s and most of the 1970s.

For those who believe that the piece was not written by the author to whom it is attributed, you need only go to the post-mormon board and search the author's name.

[Avatar4321]

The real history of the Church includes appearances from God the Father, Jesus Christ, and a host of angels.

[Storm Rider]

I can certainly understand this individual's feelings. The vast majority of our best memories are all nostalgic and warm the heart.

As the church has grown and for the sake of being thrifty with its funds we all see a uniformity of building style, manuals, church functioning, etc. Though I understand why this occurred, I too wish we had not lost some of the local uniqueness of some church buildings, wards, etc.

Frankly, this issue of the Church's finances is a non-issue for me. I simply don't understand what the problem is for some people that get bothered by it. Because LDS pay tithing faithfully the Church was forced to evolve into a steward of vast wealth. Why should I care that they have done a good job? Do I see any evidence that funds have gone to enrich the lives of our leaders? No! Who has it enriched? The life of every member worldwide has benefited in meeting houses, temples, welfare, etc. If someone has been bothered by this, I can only assume that Satan has found a chink in their armor and has successfully caused a rift between them and the Church of Jesus Christ. We all have chinks; some bigger than others, but it is nothing to be ashamed of; just something to attend to and repent.

If this was the position of all those who have fallen away, then great will be the day of their return. However, the positions and feelings that I have found on the Internet from those who have moved beyond the arms of the Church are more often bitter, distorted, vitriolic, and cause great pity from me. They appear so wounded and broken that they have become delusional from pain. It will take a long time and much humility for their hearts to soften....or it will take their submission to the guidance of the Holy Spirit and their hearts will be healed in an instant and the Church's arms remain open to them.

[Calm]

I am somewhat frustrated that the Church went through a phase where uniformity of appearance---which makes perfect sense in a church that stresses missionary work as much as we do----took priority to intelligent planning for comfort. There is just no way a Californian style building works well in Canada. Yes, it cut down on noise from other classroom and allowed windows in each room as well, but when you need to bring blankets to the classroom to keep kids warm.....and some hot climate buildings had the reverse of the same problem, windows don't help If you are built along a noisy roadway either.

Add to that faulty pouring of concrete so it smashed the air vents....there was great rejoicing when our old ward got updated.

I find the current shape much more comfortable and easy to clean, but I think it would be nice if the rooms were set up so we could quickly decorate them for individuality so children and youth could feel more of a sense of possession or 'homecoming' as I think this would lead to greater comfort and more participation.

I am currently attending a ward whose chapel is one of the oldest ones in the Church, even got mentioned in conference once. Many of its nice aspects were some of its worst points depending on the time of year before the recent update. The newer buildings may be somewhat bland, but they are more comfortable and when I have to be sitting in a crowd for three hours straight generally I'll take comfort over uniqueness/quirkiness. Depending on the age and health of the person quoted in the opening post, he might be less nostalgic for the old building if he had to attend it these days than when he was younger.

Great that he has positive thoughts about past experiences in the church and with its members, too bad he wasn't willing to change enough so he grew in love for the people rather than dismissing them now as belonging to a "corporation" with all the implications that carries about the type of people who are still willing to carry on in the faith.

People also tend to be fond of quirkiness until it interferes with what they want to accomplish. And in my time over the years in watching people go through experiences, quirkiness is always more appealing in hindsight (the saying "we'll laugh about this one day" exists for a reason).

The OP talked about the quirkiness of the ward mainly by describing the people involved. It helps to live in a ward with low turnover, but people tend to move a lot more than they did in the past and it can take time for people to relax enough to open themselves up. If someone is willing to put effort into getting to know individuals, that sort of quirkiness is still as present in the wards as in the past, however if one expects to sit back and just be able to watch the parade of interesting people walk by, then it is most likely that one will miss the best aspects of people's individuality IMO.

[Calm]

At least we know why he left.

If he really believes that if the "old building" was still around that he might be found on its pews, then it is very sad he is letting something that must be essentially trivial get in the way of coming home.

However, given the rest of his comments and my assumption that there is more to his dissatisfaction than just lack of variety of architecture even with what that implies about the Church because that would just be rather pathetic, I suspect that it was more about attempting to write something that sounded good rather than expressing an actual viable option for him.

As he was describing the individuals, I was thinking of the wards and branches I've attended in the past 20 years or so and could think of people matching pretty much all of his descriptions, with slight variations of course (a dry cleaners replacing the grocery store for example). Those kind of people haven't left the Church even if he has.

Edited December 8, 2011 by calmoriah

[Libs]

If the point of this thread is to prove that not all apostates are mean and nasty, towards the church, after they leave, I think that should be a no-brainer. Not everyone who leaves, vents negatively on the internet. And, even those who do, may just be going through a phase. Leaving (for most of us) is difficult. There is a definite sense of loss..and sometimes a sense of betrayal. It takes time to sort through all of that.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Libs

[Libs]

This gentleman's nostalgia over a building is all just a part of that process and a way of expressing his deep sense of loss (IMO).

[Mariner]

The real history of the Church includes appearances from God the Father, Jesus Christ, and a host of angels.

These kinds of claims are really problematic for a lot of people, including the author of the piece in the OP. There is no physical evidence for these claims and, in fact, the vast majority of people who have heard them, especially after understanding them in context, do not believe them to be true. Thus the sense of betrayal when many (if not most) one time believers finally come to really understand the context.

[Storm Rider]

Hello Mariner,

When we begin to evaluate religion on a standard of physical evidence we must eventually end up an atheist. There is no physical evidence that Jesus lived or that he was resurrected. There is no physical evidence that Moses lived or that there was an exodus of 40 years. There certainly is no evidence of a Garden of Eden. That is just for Christianity and Judaism. All religions have similar problems.

Context is interesting; just as perspective is interesting. From my informed perspective and in-depth review of LDS history, I have no problems with the history of the Church, Joseph Smith, the translation of the plates, the leadership of Brigham Young, polygamy, the race question, priesthood, you take the topic. (There is one caveat; I could not care less about the research with the Pearl of Great Price as I have stated on another thread. I have not studied it in depth and I really don't have any interest to do so.)

I do understand how some could find problems and make issues of some areas of the Church history, but I also know that this is strictly a topic of faith. I believe in Jesus Christ. I simply cannot be put in a position where I can deny him; he is my Master and Savior. As a result of that testimony, I cannot deny the restored Church of Jesus Christ.

Where I suspect we might find a great deal of commonality is the fundamental humanness of the leaders of the Church. I deeply respect the mantle they carry, but I do not afford them any more respect than I do others. If I meet them and come to know them my respect will either grow or decrease depending upon them and their actions. After all is said and done, they put their pants on just like I do. They are human just like I am. More importantly, they are not perfect and no one should ever assume they are or were.

I hope you find peace and joy in your life.

[Mariner]

Hello Storm Rider,

Thank you for a frank and thoughtful response and for your kind wishes. In discussions such as these, it is important for each participant to feel that others in the discussion understand their position, even if they do not agree with it. I think you have shown pretty clearly that you have a good understanding of where the author in the OP is coming from, and I do respect that.

While I do not for one minute doubt the humanity and good intentions of the leaders of the LDS Church, I also know that good intentions and humanity are not enough when leaders assume for themselves the great responsibilities represented by the unwavering (and in some cases, blind) trust of millions of followers.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Mariner

[Deborah]

...represented by the unwavering (some would say blind) trust of millions of followers.

Sigh. I get so tired of this idea that faith in the leaders is blind. You know some of us have been around long enough we have learned to trust the leaders and it is anything but blind. Most faithful members have had their faith tested time and again but they continue in faith because of their experiences through such trials; the don't just keep believing because that is what is expected.

[frankenstein]

While some individuals who leave the LDS do have hostility, I find it also interesting the hostility those same individuals receive from those who claim current membership in the LDS Church.

a little more respect and a much much less "my position above everything else" from both sides would go a long way. Christ informs via the parable of the sower that not everyone will take hold and thrive, however, that an individual did not take hold and thrive is never a justification for those who claim to follow Christ to ridicule that individual or to disparage that individual. And that individuals choose to retain membership and participate is also not justification to ridicule. The my experience is that neither side see the ridiculousness and futility in their ridicule and maltreatment of the other side. Allas, we know that contention is of the devil and eventually the wheat and tares will be separated.