My Challenge To All Non-Lds Readers

[Storm Rider]

See my previous post. Fasting is a religious obligation, but God has not set a timetable for it in the scriptures. You could neglect it altogether, or carry it to excess. You can kill yourself by fasting too much, or you neglect it by not fasting at all. The Church has set a minimum guideline which is the least that any healthy person can do. It is a religious obligation for those who are not prevented from performing it for health or other reasons. But it is not like the commandment not to commit adultery.

I disagree with this position. It is not an obligation for any LDS and never has been. It is recommended and we are encouraged to fast, but that is all. No where is fasting a requirement; at no time need we demonstrate that we actually fast. More importantly, there are only recommendations to for go two meals, but no requirement to fast for a proscribed period. Because of this I cannot understand or accept that the Church teaches that fasting is an obligation. I suspect that those who do view it as an obligation or viewing it as such for themselves personally, but that is a personal matter and is not the teaching or position of the Church.

[Storm Rider]

Even then you are allowed some discretion. If you are too week, or elderly, or unwell to fast, you are not expected to. It is not like the commandment not to commit adultery. You are never too sick to be excused from obeying that commandment.

More importantly, you are recommended not to fast. There is a big difference. Zerinus, you have an unusually narrow and very high standard; I know that the Church does not take the same position.

[zerinus]

I disagree with this position. It is not an obligation for any LDS and never has been. It is recommended and we are encouraged to fast, but that is all. No where is fasting a requirement; at no time need we demonstrate that we actually fast. More importantly, there are only recommendations to for go two meals, but no requirement to fast for a proscribed period. Because of this I cannot understand or accept that the Church teaches that fasting is an obligation. I suspect that those who do view it as an obligation or viewing it as such for themselves personally, but that is a personal matter and is not the teaching or position of the Church.

There are different kinds of obligations I suppose. I call this an obligation:

D&C 88:

76 Also, I give unto you a commandment that ye shall continue in prayer and fasting from this time forth.

More importantly, you are recommended not to fast. There is a big difference. Zerinus, you have an unusually narrow and very high standard; I know that the Church does not take the same position.

All I see is a difference of emphasis here. I don't see a disagreement.

[Storm Rider]

There are different kinds of obligations I suppose. I call this an obligation:

D&C 88:

76 Also, I give unto you a commandment that ye shall continue in prayer and fasting from this time forth.

All I see is a difference of emphasis here. I don't see a disagreement.

It may easily be a difference of semantics. But it is one where I believe extra care should be given. The scripture you quoted was excellent and it is that context of obligation; pray and fast without ceasing that we find agreement. The bible gives us a very similar command.

My concern is when discussing this topic with individuals such as Rob, who often appreciates stretching the beliefs of LDS to extremes, we need to make sure they understand the context of the commandment or obligation. Pray without ceasing is one that he should live by given that it is a biblical teaching. Does he do it? Does anyone do it? How do they do it? Where there are those who lie in wait to deceive we need to keep a very short leash on descriptions and language to that if they do stretch LDS beliefs out of context or description that do it so as to condemn themselves before God, rather than old Brother Mormon told me x therefore it is so.

Peace

[zerinus]

It may easily be a difference of semantics. But it is one where I believe extra care should be given. The scripture you quoted was excellent and it is that context of obligation; pray and fast without ceasing that we find agreement. The bible gives us a very similar command.

My concern is when discussing this topic with individuals such as Rob, who often appreciates stretching the beliefs of LDS to extremes, we need to make sure they understand the context of the commandment or obligation. Pray without ceasing is one that he should live by given that it is a biblical teaching. Does he do it? Does anyone do it? How do they do it? Where there are those who lie in wait to deceive we need to keep a very short leash on descriptions and language to that if they do stretch LDS beliefs out of context or description that do it so as to condemn themselves before God, rather than old Brother Mormon told me x therefore it is so.

Peace

I don't think that my replies gave him an excuse to "stretch our beliefs". On the contrary, I think I formulated my replies so as to avoid giving him that excuse.

[Bernard Gui]

One of the nice things about sharing the activity of fasting among our community is that when so moved we can fast together for a shared purpose. In the past I have experienced fasts have being held for members undergoing medical treatments such as radiation therapy for cancer or major surgeries, droughts, earthquake victims or other disasters, special needs of the ward and its members in general such as missionary work or economic hardships. It can bring a greater sense of community and mutual commitment to participate in such an activity.

Indeed! Thanks for amplifying the role fasting plays in our faith. It brings the members closer together as we seek the unity Jesus asks of us. We have also participated in extended family fasts for struggling family members. This unites us as a family and stitches our hearts together

in love and compassion.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

To Rob or any non-LDS reader:

Here you have an LDS bishop (not currently serving).. Ask away!

Bernard

Edited December 8, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[Rob Bowman]

Scott,

I had missed this one. You wrote:

Why does that have to be assumed "for the sake of argument"? Isn't it pretty obvious that you generally can't tell by looking at a person whether or not he has skipped breakfast that morning?

Can you not muster the humility at least to admit the obvious?

While it is obvious that you generally can't tell "by looking at a person" if he is fasting, there are other ways you could tell. You know, for instance, seeing him come out of the local steakhouse.

[zerinus]

While it is obvious that you generally can't tell "by looking at a person" if he is fasting, there are other ways you could tell. You know, for instance, seeing him come out of the local steakhouse.

Supposing for the sake of argument that no one can tell whether a Mormon is practicing the fast, the concern I raised based on Christ's words in Matthew 6 are still relevant to the LDS religion as a whole. The very fact that Mormons point out publicly that they engage in this practice and seek to gain some respect in others' eyes by it, even taking some collective pride in the practice (as in this very thread), is enough to merit the concern.

First of all there is no stigma attached in the LDS Church to not observing the fast, and if someone was not fasting they would have no incentive to want to lie about it or pretend otherwise. Secondly, skipping a meal and giving the money to charity is seen as such a sensible and effective way of donating to charity that many charities and humanitarian organizations are now advocating it, such as these:

http://www.ishafound...org/skip-a-meal

http://www.lsureveil...89#.TuCu5bLsi24

http://www.huffingto...n_n_410939.html

http://queensjournal...against-hunger/

http://charity-blog....feed-child.html

http://www.themoscow...ays/310465.html

http://www.facebook....202502226488223

http://www.twomeals.org/

http://answers.yahoo...13221926AAz02y1

http://www.ncck.org/...amealortwo.html

http://www.uoguelph....ions_to_fo.html

The Mormons who have advocated this principle have done so out of genuine concern for humanitarian relief, not for self-aggrandizement, or in order to promote their own self-righteousness. Your willingness to portray LDS motives in the worst possible light rather than in the best says something unsavoury about you. Everybody else in the world seems to think that this is a great idea except you.

Edited December 8, 2011 by zerinus

[Calm]

While it is obvious that you generally can't tell "by looking at a person" if he is fasting, there are other ways you could tell. You know, for instance, seeing him come out of the local steakhouse.

You really don't get LDS culture. Do members of your congregation behave in this fashion? Do they take note of other members doing potentially controversial things? If they advertise some church sponsor event is it for bragging purposes or to look good to others or to promote good things?

Anyone who would actually care about this kind of stuff wouldn't likely be hanging around the local steakhouse on Sunday in the first place.

I haven't fasted since I was in my early twenties, 30 years ago. Not only has no leader ever commented or ask me about it, but no member has made mention of it either, not even when I've eaten at church on fast days.

Even in Utah I rarely see ward members outside of church, though if I still had kids in school I would see parents there of course. In my 50 plus years in the Church I have only had one encounter where I observed a church member in a 'compromising position' and that was a young mother having a smoke in the parking lot of a local store....not on the Sabbath. The only thing I felt after surprise was compassion for her struggle and respect for her willingness to brave the intense cold (this was winter in Canada) rather than sit in the car exposing her youngest to secondhand smoke. I did not 'report' it to anyone or gossiped about it either. Maybe there are some members who go around following others with the intent to catch them at something, but if the lack of discussion with any fellow members on such things is any indication, if we inadvertently come across such information we generally keep it to ourselves.

Edited December 8, 2011 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Christ may have condemned those who hung around the tithe or offering box making a big show of their devotion, but he didn't condemn the widow whom everyone could see just as easily as they saw the rich men and he didn't point to those publicly bringing sacrifices to the temple as commanded as being prideful or doing it for the admiration of other men.

It was the prideful manner that was condemned, not the public act itself.

Why not just condemn people for inviting others to church with them as that could be as easily interpreted as showing off their righteousness in attending?

Assuming without evidence that someone is acting out of pride should lead someone making that kind of judgment to some serious introspection, IMO, but unfortunately that type of person is often more concerned about the errors of his fellowman than his own.

[Rob Bowman]

zerinus,

You've got me totally wrong. I have absolutely no objection to the idea of skipping a meal and giving the money to charity. You make an excellent point about the many charities that recommend people do this. But that's not the issue I raised. Rather, the issue I raised was requiring all (healthy adult) members of one's religion to do it, supposedly as a commandment of God.

First of all there is no stigma attached in the LDS Church to not observing the fast, and if someone was not fasting they would have no incentive to want to lie about it or pretend otherwise. Secondly, skipping a meal and giving the money to charity is seen as such a sensible and effective way of donating to charity that many charities and humanitarian organizations are now advocating it, such as these:

http://www.ishafound...org/skip-a-meal

http://www.lsureveil...89#.TuCu5bLsi24

http://www.huffingto...n_n_410939.html

http://queensjournal...against-hunger/

http://charity-blog....feed-child.html

http://www.themoscow...ays/310465.html

http://www.facebook....202502226488223

http://www.twomeals.org/

http://answers.yahoo...13221926AAz02y1

http://www.ncck.org/...amealortwo.html

http://www.uoguelph....ions_to_fo.html

The Mormons who have advocated this principle have done so out of genuine concern for humanitarian relief, not for self-aggrandizement, or in order to promote their own self-righteousness. Your willingness to portray LDS motives in the worst possible light rather than in the best says something unsavoury about you. Everybody else in the world seems to think that this is a great idea except you.

[Rob Bowman]

calmoriah,

You wrote:

You really don't get LDS culture. Do members of your congregation behave in this fashion? Do they take note of other members doing potentially controversial things? If they advertise some church sponsor event is it for bragging purposes or to look good to others or to promote good things?

Apples and oranges. A church advertising an event is not teaching that all of its members must support the event as a commandment of God.

If I saw a member of my church publicly disobeying a commandment of God, I would consider that person to be sinning; I would therefore be concerned for that person and would, if it was relationally appropriate, approach him with my concern. If I noticed this person repeatedly committing this sin publicly and he refused to repent, I would be duty-bound to bring the matter to our local congregational leadership in the process that Jesus himself laid down (Matt. 18:15-18). The difference between our two religions is that in mine doing things like eating lunch on Sunday is not a sin. Now, if you don't think it's sin, then you don't really think the fast is a commandment of God.

You wrote:

Anyone who would actually care about this kind of stuff wouldn't likely be hanging around the local steakhouse on Sunday in the first place.

No one said anything about hanging around the place. You might be driving down the street and notice Mr. Jones coming out of the establishment.

You wrote:

I haven't fasted since I was in my early twenties, 30 years ago. Not only has no leader ever commented or ask me about it, but no member has made mention of it either, not even when I've eaten at church on fast days.

It really sounds to me that in practical terms the fast isn't treated as a commandment of God. You can chalk that up to me not understanding LDS culture, but without some explanation that is the perception such comments imply.

Even in Utah I rarely see ward members outside of church, though if I still had kids in school I would see parents there of course. In my 50 plus years in the Church I have only had one encounter where I observed a church member in a 'compromising position' and that was a young mother having a smoke in the parking lot of a local store....not on the Sabbath. The only thing I felt after surprise was compassion for her struggle and respect for her willingness to brave the intense cold (this was winter in Canada) rather than sit in the car exposing her youngest to secondhand smoke. I did not 'report' it to anyone or gossiped about it either. Maybe there are some members who go around following others with the intent to catch them at something, but if the lack of discussion with any fellow members on such things is any indication, if we inadvertently come across such information we generally keep it to ourselves.

I'm not suggesting anyone in the LDS Church goes around following others to try to catch them in the act. Nor am I suggesting that Mormons who see a fellow church member breaking a commandment would gossip about the matter (presumably in the LDS religion, as in all religions including mine, some people are gossips but hopefully most are not). This sort of caricature of what I've said makes fruitful discussion more difficult.

[Saints Alive]

zerinus,

You've got me totally wrong. I have absolutely no objection to the idea of skipping a meal and giving the money to charity. You make an excellent point about the many charities that recommend people do this. But that's not the issue I raised. Rather, the issue I raised was requiring all (healthy adult) members of one's religion to do it, supposedly as a commandment of God.

And why is it not possible for God to ask us to fast?

[Saints Alive]

If I saw a member of my church publicly disobeying a commandment of God, I would consider that person to be sinning; I would therefore be concerned for that person and would, if it was relationally appropriate, approach him with my concern. If I noticed this person repeatedly committing this sin publicly and he refused to repent, I would be duty-bound to bring the matter to our local congregational leadership in the process that Jesus himself laid down (Matt. 18:15-18). The difference between our two religions is that in mine doing things like eating lunch on Sunday is not a sin. Now, if you don't think it's sin, then you don't really think the fast is a commandment of God.

That is where you differ from mormons, Mormons believe a man's sins are between him and God and only his bishop is authorized to mediate.

[bluebell]

If I saw a member of my church publicly disobeying a commandment of God, I would consider that person to be sinning; I would therefore be concerned for that person and would, if it was relationally appropriate, approach him with my concern. If I noticed this person repeatedly committing this sin publicly and he refused to repent, I would be duty-bound to bring the matter to our local congregational leadership in the process that Jesus himself laid down (Matt. 18:15-18). The difference between our two religions is that in mine doing things like eating lunch on Sunday is not a sin. Now, if you don't think it's sin, then you don't really think the fast is a commandment of God.

Unless the sin was a serious one, i would tell myself that God gave the person permission to do it. That way i'm not tempted to judge in matters where i probably don't have enough information to do so righteously.

I've got enough beams in my own eyes to worry about.

[mfbukowski]

You've got me totally wrong. I have absolutely no objection to the idea of skipping a meal and giving the money to charity. You make an excellent point about the many charities that recommend people do this. But that's not the issue I raised. Rather, the issue I raised was requiring all (healthy adult) members of one's religion to do it, supposedly as a commandment of God.

I don't know why you continually come here to tell us what we believe with no understanding whatsoever of what it means to be Mormon.

What is your motivation? Clearly you are not trying to convert us- if that were true you would not be critical, but simply explain with gentleness.

So you are just here to argue?

If you are here to garner arguments against us, ok, but then you should just remain quiet and observe and take the info back to your nefarious site and do with it what you will.

But to tell us what we believe, and argue with us when we tell you that is NOT what we believe makes no sense at all.

I suppose I could tell you that Evangelicals believe in green goblins and argue with you when you said you didn't, but I would see that as a waste of your time AND mine.

WHY DON'T YOU SEE THAT??

[mfbukowski]

It really sounds to me that in practical terms the fast isn't treated as a commandment of God. You can chalk that up to me not understanding LDS culture, but without some explanation that is the perception such comments imply.

Why does anyone owe you an explanation for ANYTHING? It's not as if you are an "investigator"- your only reason for being here is to criticize and even by answering you all those folks are doing is feeding the troll.

[Saints Alive]

Why does anyone owe you an explanation for ANYTHING? It's not as if you are an "investigator"- your only reason for being here is to criticize and even by answering you all those folks are doing is feeding the troll.

I disagree I think Rob sees a valid paradox from his perspective. It is true that we are commanded to fast once a month at fast and testimony meeting and it is also true that it is not enforced by anyone other than the individual.

[bluebell]

I disagree I think Rob sees a valid paradox from his perspective. It is true that we are commanded to fast once a month at fast and testimony meeting and it is also true that it is not enforced by anyone other than the individual.

I don't understand why a commandment has to be enforced outside of the relationship between the individual and God in order for it to be a legitimate commandment.

[Saints Alive]

I don't understand why a commandment has to be enforced outside of the relationship between the individual and God in order for it to be a legitimate commandment.

I would argue that it doesn't have to be.

[bluebell]

I would argue that it doesn't have to be.

What is the valid paradox that exists then, if the two aren't connected?

[Saints Alive]

What is the valid paradox that exists then, if the two aren't connected?

I suppose the paradox is more based on the posters who said that it isn't a commandment.

[mfbukowski]

I disagree I think Rob sees a valid paradox from his perspective. It is true that we are commanded to fast once a month at fast and testimony meeting and it is also true that it is not enforced by anyone other than the individual.

Huh?

What - the commandment police come to your house when you break one? Gosh no one does that to me! Am I special or what?

What commandments ARE "enforced" by anyone other than the individual?

You're not making sense...

Please don't make the discussion about other posters. - Ares

Edited December 8, 2011 by Ares

[Saints Alive]

Huh?

What - the commandment police come to your house when you break one? Gosh no one does that to me! Am I special or what?

What commandments ARE "enforced" by anyone other than the individual?

You're not making sense...

The snide and sarcastic tone of your reply aside... Other commandments are enforced in the sense that they are a part of Personal worthiness interviews. Obviously the individual can choose whether or not he responds honestly but he is still asked if he tithes and follows the law of chastity. I have never been asked about fasting.