My Challenge To All Non-Lds Readers

[LeSellers]

I suggested your challenge to a co-worker who is Seventh-day Adventist. He said they'll do it as soon as the LDS Church accepts his challenge to publish their basic financial information on the Church website.

It seems unlikely to me that any Seventh Day Adventist would care at all about the Church's financial reporting practices.

Lehi

[Thunderfire]

There is one thing the LDS Church does that I believe is unique...

the once-a-month fast offering. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, I do find this unique and a nice practice. Now I know of a group that fasts each week from Sunday noon (after the meal) through Wednesday lunch (when the fast is broken). They do not make an effort to give the money to charity, but treat the money given as being an offering (beyond the tithe) which is used for mission. I also know of people who will take a 40 day fast each year (the extent of fast is left up to each individual). They do this for intercession purposes and believe the spiritual ramifications of the fast is vital in importance.

So I always commend a call to fast. Yet in the end, whose reason behind the fast is more important than another? Just pondering here...

[KevinG]

Yet in the end, whose reason behind the fast is more important than another? Just pondering here...

The nice thing is fasting and giving offerings blesses the person performing the fast as well as the person receiving the assistance. It is not an either or choice.

[Scott Lloyd]

It seems unlikely to me that any Seventh Day Adventist would care at all about the Church's financial reporting practices.

Lehi

I know from experience that Cinepro invents things from whole cloth when the urge strikes him.

[Rob Bowman]

All,

It doesn't matter how gently and even cautiously I offer a different point of view, some of you get very defensive and even hostile. I suppose that goes with the territory.

Supposing for the sake of argument that no one can tell whether a Mormon is practicing the fast, the concern I raised based on Christ's words in Matthew 6 are still relevant to the LDS religion as a whole. The very fact that Mormons point out publicly that they engage in this practice and seek to gain some respect in others' eyes by it, even taking some collective pride in the practice (as in this very thread), is enough to merit the concern.

Jesus’ teaching in Matthew 6 assumed that people fasted at different times and so would not know if anyone was fasting unless he made a spectacle of himself. Obviously the situation is different if a fast is mandated on a particular scheduled day. There the assumption would be that faithful members are observing the fast.

Perhaps someone here would be willing to answer a few questions about this practice. Is observing the fast considered an obligation or commandment? It certainly seems to be. When a member of the LDS Church is interviewed by a bishop to determine the member's faithfulness, is the member asked about his fasting, giving to the poor, or tithing? If you saw a healthy fellow Mormon and his family entering a restaurant early Sunday afternoon, would you think less of them, or consider them to be less than fully faithful?

Some of you have tried to deflect attention from this issue by pointing out that evangelical churches pass collection plates during worship services. The comparison is not apt because the collection is for the general expenses of the church and only formal members of the congregation are expected to contribute. That is, the collection is for the purpose of maintaining the congregation's facilities, staff, and programs, of which the church member is a beneficiary. That having been said, evangelical churches are moving away from the practice with the advent of online payment options.

I don't consider this a major issue. However, I do think the concern I expressed has some legitimate basis.

[KevinG]

Not all are required to fast on fast Sunday. Those with health reasons don't do it but are asked to assume an attitude of fasting and prayer. Children don't do it. Not all are required to do it. Fast Sunday is when we meet to share testimonies of Christ (non-prepared non-sermons) and fast and pray as a group. This is in addition to personal fasts that can happen at any time.

We dress the same and we act the same as any other Sabbath day, except for the setting aside of the Sacrament meeting to personally testify of Christ.

Offerings are colledcted anonymously as I described above. No one knows who is fasting or who offered on Fast Sunday. Only that we are reminded to voluntarily do so once a month in addition to personal fasts or other offerings.

During an interview with the Bishop we are asked if we pay a full tithe. We voluntarily report to him as our ecclesiastical authority - as though he represented the Savior who we ultimately report to. We are not compelled nor does the Bishop ask for our tax records. We simply answer on our honor to receive his signature on our Temple recommend. Why is this even necessary? To prevent us from making covenants that we cannot keep resulting in our own condemnation. The Bishop is also in a position to assist those in need. The Temple recommend interview does not ask how much we have given in offerings, only if we consider ourselves to be full tithe payers.

If I saw someone on Sunday going into a restaurant I'd assume they were adults and knew what they were doing. Sometimes the freezer breaks, the non-Mormon inlaws are in town or someone is travelling and cannot prepare their own meals at home. We all get our Ox in a ditch, the trick is to avoid getting an Ox that ends up in the ditch every Sunday.

Given that the LDS believe and follow Matt. 6 in its entirety and even though we often fast at different times for spiritual edification and personal blessings, I'd still like to know where the assertion that Matt. 6 assumes people all fasted at different times comes from?

A bit of advice that might help you avoid embarassment and unintentionaly spreading falsehoods which in turn may reduce the hostility and defensiveness of those you address. Spend less time learning about Mormons from internet sites and symposia and do a little more scholarly field work on real Mormons and how they really worship.

Your lack of knowledge of fundamental LDS beliefs and practices is frightening given your professed expertise on what we "really believe".

Edited December 2, 2011 by DaddyG

[KevinG]

Some of you have tried to deflect attention from this issue by pointing out that evangelical churches pass collection plates during worship services. The comparison is not apt because the collection is for the general expenses of the church and only formal members of the congregation are expected to contribute. That is, the collection is for the purpose of maintaining the congregation's facilities, staff, and programs, of which the church member is a beneficiary. That having been said, evangelical churches are moving away from the practice with the advent of online payment options.

Just like the LDS tithing system only with envelopes handed to the Bishopric instead of the plate done in front of everyone. I've been protestant and I've been Mormon. The Mormon way is more private if that is an issue. I don't have an objection to either. The Mormon or Protestant taint is equally acceptable when it comes to contributing to the Church for operating expenses or charity offerings.

[cinepro]

Just like the LDS tithing system only with envelopes handed to the Bishopric instead of the plate done in front of everyone. I've been protestant and I've been Mormon. The Mormon way is more private if that is an issue. I don't have an objection to either. The Mormon or Protestant taint is equally acceptable when it comes to contributing to the Church for operating expenses or charity offerings.

I prefer the LDS way of doing it because it is much more private. Although I'm usually in such a hurry that I can only find time to surreptitiously hand the envelope to the Bishop as he sits on the stand about 30 seconds before Sacrament Meeting starts.

I have heard rumors that if you choose, you can send the money directly to Salt Lake and no one in the Ward will know how much you pay. Anyone know if this is true?

Edited December 2, 2011 by cinepro

[cinepro]

Your friend's pretty defensive.

"My Church is better than yours" challenges like the one in the OP tend to do that to people.

[Scott Lloyd]

I prefer the LDS way of doing it because it is much more private. Although I'm usually in such a hurry that I can only find time to surreptitiously hand the envelope to the Bishop as he sits on the stand about 30 seconds before Sacrament Meeting starts.

I have heard rumors that if you choose, you can send the money directly to Salt Lake and no one in the Ward will know how much you pay. Anyone know if this is true?

I did it that way for a while, but I discontinued it because I had a hard time getting a statement back from the Church in a timely manner so I could do my taxes. (It was something of a pilot program back then; they're probably better at it now.) These days, I pay my tithing through the on-line bill pay function with my credit union and have it sent to the bishop's address.

By the way, neither you nor anyone else has to pay tithing in front of the congregation 30 seconds before sacrament meeting starts. You can give it to any member of he bishopric at any time. Or you can send it through the mail or do what I do.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

A bit of advice that might help you avoid embarassment and unintentionaly spreading falsehoods which in turn may reduce the hostility and defensiveness of those you address. Spend less time learning about Mormons from internet sites and symposia and do a little more scholarly field work on real Mormons and how they really worship.

Your lack of knowledge of fundamental LDS beliefs and practices is frightening given your professed expertise on what we "really believe".

And he could go to authoritative sources. For example, Rob could get at least some of his questions answered about fasting and fast offerings from this authoritative source at LDS.org.

It's from a concise encyclopedic reference work the Church publishes called True to the Faith. For Rob's future reference, here's a link to the Table of Contents page listing all the topics about Mormonism that the book covers.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[Saints Alive]

It doesn't matter how gently and even cautiously I offer a different point of view, some of you get very defensive and even hostile. I suppose that goes with the territory.

I don’t see what the point of this comment is other than to be offensive or derogatory. I can think of times when I have “gently and cautiously” suggested a different point of view to evangelicals and most all of them reacted defensively and hostile. Perhaps that just goes with the territory of criticizing others views.

Supposing for the sake of argument that no one can tell whether a Mormon is practicing the fast, the concern I raised based on Christ's words in Matthew 6 are still relevant to the LDS religion as a whole. The very fact that Mormons point out publicly that they engage in this practice and seek to gain some respect in others' eyes by it, even taking some collective pride in the practice (as in this very thread), is enough to merit the concern.

With the exception of this thread when do Mormons point out publicly that they fast and give offerings? I must have missed the Iam a Mormon commercial where they talk about fasting and tithing.

I don’t think the intent of this thread was to “gain respect in others eyes,” it was simply to highlight a practice that could benefit others. I think you are looking through the lens of criticism and seeing something that is not there.

Jesus’ teaching in Matthew 6 assumed that people fasted at different times and so would not know if anyone was fasting unless he made a spectacle of himself. Obviously the situation is different if a fast is mandated on a particular scheduled day. There the assumption would be that faithful members are observing the fast.

The fast is not “mandated,” it is a personal matter whether one fast of not on the first Sunday of the month but it is designated as fast and testimony Sunday (although sometimes depending on circumstance it is moved to a different Sunday). One may assume that faithful members are fasting but that would be a false assumption. I can think of many occasions where I have forgot that it was a fast Sunday and have had others tell me the same. Additionally, we are encouraged to fast at other times besides just the first Sunday of the month.

Perhaps someone here would be willing to answer a few questions about this practice. Is observing the fast considered an obligation or commandment? It certainly seems to be.

In a sense that we believe God asks us to fast, tithe and give offerings to the poor and needy, yes it is a commandment.

When a member of the LDS Church is interviewed by a bishop to determine the member's faithfulness, is the member asked about his fasting, giving to the poor, or tithing?

You are only asked about tithing, I have never been asked about fasting or “giving to the poor” in any priesthood or temple interview.

If you saw a healthy fellow Mormon and his family entering a restaurant early Sunday afternoon, would you think less of them, or consider them to be less than fully faithful?

It’s not my place to Judge anyone, strictly speaking we (Mormons) are not to eat out on any Sunday (fast Sunday or not) because it causes people to work or serve us on the Sabbath and the bible clearly states that you should not make your servants work on the Sabbath. In any case their transgressions are between them and God and their Bishop is the only person on earth authorized to mediate.

Some of you have tried to deflect attention from this issue by pointing out that evangelical churches pass collection plates during worship services. The comparison is not apt because the collection is for the general expenses of the church and only formal members of the congregation are expected to contribute. That is, the collection is for the purpose of maintaining the congregation's facilities, staff, and programs, of which the church member is a beneficiary. That having been said, evangelical churches are moving away from the practice with the advent of online payment options.

You are missing the point. Its not about where the money goes or who is expected to contribute. It is the fact that the plate is passed around in front of everyone and you know whether or not the person you are sitting next to puts $20, $1, or $0 in the plate and you can’t say no one pays attention. Its Ironic you would even address this since earlier you criticized us for being “defensive and even hostile” when you were just “gently and even cautiously [offering] a different point of view”

I don't consider this a major issue. However, I do think the concern I expressed has some legitimate basis.

Perhaps this post in particular might appear to boast if viewed by a non-lds audience, I don’t think that was the author’s intent though. I believe they were simply pointing out something that the LDS church practices that the world could benefit from. Alas, it failed because evangelicals refuse to see anything good or worthwhile in any belief system that isn’t their own.

[Vance]

Your lack of knowledge of fundamental LDS beliefs and practices is frightening given your professed expertise on what we "really believe".

Very true. But pointing it out won't stop his bloviations.

[LeSellers]

Anyone know if this is true?

I've done it.

Lehi

[Jaybear]

Perhaps this post in particular might appear to boast if viewed by a non-lds audience, I don’t think that was the author’s intent though. I believe they were simply pointing out something that the LDS church practices that the world could benefit from. Alas, it failed because evangelicals refuse to see anything good or worthwhile in any belief system that isn’t their own.

A regular fast is a good idea. Giving money to the poor is a good idea.

Spending at least one evening a week with family is a good idea.

Good ideas are good ideas.

[Storm Rider]

All,

It doesn't matter how gently and even cautiously I offer a different point of view, some of you get very defensive and even hostile. I suppose that goes with the territory.

Me thinks thou protest too much; but let us look at your attempt at an explanation.

Supposing for the sake of argument that no one can tell whether a Mormon is practicing the fast, the concern I raised based on Christ's words in Matthew 6 are still relevant to the LDS religion as a whole. The very fact that Mormons point out publicly that they engage in this practice and seek to gain some respect in others' eyes by it, even taking some collective pride in the practice (as in this very thread), is enough to merit the concern.

Therefore admitting to any good act is a practice of concern rather than a teaching. Best keep those hymns EVs like to sing from anyone hearing; god forbid they teach a truth to anyone. Also, talk of Jesus can only be a statement of self-righteousness pride. This reasoning is vacuous at best. The fact that you bring it up begins to make me question whether you really know better or not.

Jesus’ teaching in Matthew 6 assumed that people fasted at different times and so would not know if anyone was fasting unless he made a spectacle of himself. Obviously the situation is different if a fast is mandated on a particular scheduled day. There the assumption would be that faithful members are observing the fast.

This is a blatant falsehood. Fasting was done in sackcloth and with ashes on your face. In that day, one knew who was fasting by merely looking at them. That was the point, everyone that fasted let everyone know they were fasting. To this day, it is impossible to know who is fasting in an LDS congregation or not regardless of when they choose to fast.

Perhaps someone here would be willing to answer a few questions about this practice. Is observing the fast considered an obligation or commandment? It certainly seems to be. When a member of the LDS Church is interviewed by a bishop to determine the member's faithfulness, is the member asked about his fasting, giving to the poor, or tithing? If you saw a healthy fellow Mormon and his family entering a restaurant early Sunday afternoon, would you think less of them, or consider them to be less than fully faithful?

It is neither an obligation or a commandment. It is a teaching that all are invited to abide, but no one ever knows who fasts and who does not. Never is one questioned about his fast. We are asked in a temple recommend interview if we are full tithe payers, but that has nothing to do with fasting (a pathetic change of topic; stick to fasting and just admit you were being ridiculous. Or not, and let me know you are beyond reason. I don't have the patience others do.

Some of you have tried to deflect attention from this issue by pointing out that evangelical churches pass collection plates during worship services. The comparison is not apt because the collection is for the general expenses of the church and only formal members of the congregation are expected to contribute. That is, the collection is for the purpose of maintaining the congregation's facilities, staff, and programs, of which the church member is a beneficiary. That having been said, evangelical churches are moving away from the practice with the advent of online payment options.

It does not matter what its purpose. Is it done before the eyes of man? The answer is YES. Therefore, if you do it before men, according to your accusation above and Matt 6, it is only done for the adoration of man. I have become very concerned by your own admission that EVs are so prideful as to throw filthy lucre about on the Sabbath. (Please tell me you begin to see how silly your accusation becomes? Or, do you admit you have a problem in the entire EV community. I will accept either excuse.

I don't consider this a major issue. However, I do think the concern I expressed has some legitimate basis.

Oh please, there is no legitimate basis for a concern for the Church as a whole. The LDS Church teaches that one should fast once a month. You can fast on Fast Sunday or not; it is each member's choice. No other member, or anyone else, knows when every LDS is fasting or not. It is done completely in secret and is a personal choice.

You either know nothing or you are creating an issue where none exists. Worse, you have been corrected and you refuse to see anything but your own dragons. Matt 6 is a serious scripture and you, like the pharisees of old, have stretched its meaning so far out of application as to become meaningless. You try with all your might to identify the mote in our eyes, when a beam is stuck so plainly in yours.

In case you were wondering, this is the kind of complete drivel that gets you into so much trouble. You raise an issue that is so blatantly off base, hear the correction, and then have the temerity as to continue to believe your own imagination rather than hear reality! Exactly how are we to interact with you when you prove you are false, you are not interested in learning, but wholly committed to stating falsehoods?

[Scott Lloyd]

A regular fast is a good idea. Giving money to the poor is a good idea.

Spending at least one evening a week with family is a good idea.

Good ideas are good ideas.

Krister Stendahl, the late Swedish theologian and Lutheran clergyman, is somewhat famous among the Latter-day saints for his "three rules of religious understanding," one of which is this:

Leave room for "holy envy." (By this Stendahl meant that you should be willing to recognize elements in the other religious tradition or faith that you admire and wish could, in some way, be reflected in your own religious tradition or faith.)

(Wikipedia)

I think Stendahl was stating what Jaybear has said here.

[Scott Lloyd]

Supposing for the sake of argument that no one can tell whether a Mormon is practicing the fast

Why does that have to be assumed "for the sake of argument"? Isn't it pretty obvious that you generally can't tell by looking at a person whether or not he has skipped breakfast that morning?

Can you not muster the humility at least to admit the obvious?

[Storm Rider]

Krister Stendahl, the late Swedish theologian and Lutheran clergyman, is somewhat famous among the Latter-day saints for his "three rules of religious understanding," one of which is this:

(Wikipedia)

I think Stendahl was stating what Jaybear has said here.

Stendahl was a giant of a man. Would that we all could keep that thought first and foremost in our minds when we address the religious beliefs of others. Just talk about the beautiful and good and leave the rest for....writing on toilet paper. The world would be a much better place and Christians would actually be recognized as Christians more easily.

[Okrahomer]

I did it that way for a while, but I discontinued it because I had a hard time getting a statement back from the Church in a timely manner so I could do my taxes. (It was something of a pilot program back then; they're probably better at it now.)

This problem has been resolved. Comprehensive and timely statements including all contributions (either submitted directly to the Church or still submitted to the local Church unit) are now provided monthly. I receive mine via e-mail.

[Scott Lloyd]

This problem has been resolved. Comprehensive and timely statements including all contributions (either submitted directly to the Church or still submitted to the local Church unit) are now provided monthly. I receive mine via e-mail.

Cool!

Can you arrange for automatic withdrawal from your checking account? The reason I did it was that I found I had a hard time remembering to give the envelope to the bishopric and would end up carrying it around in my suit pocket for weeks on end.

[Okrahomer]

Can you arrange for automatic withdrawal from your checking account?

Yes, through your bank's billpay system.

[Scott Lloyd]

Yes, through your bank's billpay system.

OK. I think I did do it that way, now that I think about it.

[Rob Bowman]

Scott,

You wrote:

And he could go to authoritative sources. For example, Rob could get at least some of his questions answered about fasting and fast offerings from this authoritative source at LDS.org.

It's from a concise encyclopedic reference work the Church publishes called True to the Faith. For Rob's future reference, here's a link to the Table of Contents page listing all the topics about Mormonism that the book covers.

There's no call for such condescension. I am quite familiar with these sources. The article you linked does not answer any of the questions I asked, by the way.

Contrary to what you and others here seem to think, I do extensive research in the primary sources of the LDS religion.

[Scott Lloyd]

Scott,

You wrote:

There's no call for such condescension. I am quite familiar with these sources. The article you linked does not answer any of the questions I asked, by the way.

Contrary to what you and others here seem to think, I do extensive research in the primary sources of the LDS religion.

Well, this paragraph should have given you some understanding about whether we believe in fasting to "do alms before men":

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus taught the true form of fasting. He spoke against hypocrites who, when they fast, “disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast.” Rather than putting on an outward show of righteousness, you should fast “unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly” (Matthew 6:16–18).

And the article uses the term "law of the fast" which should answer the question about whether it is a commandment to fast. All of God's laws amount to commandments.