My Challenge To All Non-Lds Readers

[Rob Bowman]

Scott,

I was already well aware of the fact that the fast day is a commandment in LDS teaching; I said so myself. That question was a lead-in to the next two questions, which your linked article did not address.

Obviously, Mormons don't think of themselves as doing their fasting and charitable giving to be seen before men. And perhaps most really don't act from such a motivation. I don't know what's in their minds or what they may feel is their motivation. I do think that making a rule for the whole church requiring all healthy adults to fast on the same day of the month and give the equivalent money as charity is at cross-purposes with cultivating the right motivation. I also happen to think it's not the church's business to lay down such a commandment. Fasting and charitable giving should be actions done freely, with no compulsion or religious obligation. You will of course disagree with me, but as far as I'm concerned it's a man-made rule, nothing more.

Again, this issue is not high on my meter of most troubling issues in the LDS religion. It's extremely low on that meter. But the question was asked, and in good faith I have ventured my opinion.

[altersteve]

Scott,

I was already well aware of the fact that the fast day is a commandment in LDS teaching; I said so myself. That question was a lead-in to the next two questions, which your linked article did not address.

Obviously, Mormons don't think of themselves as doing their fasting and charitable giving to be seen before men. And perhaps most really don't act from such a motivation. I don't know what's in their minds or what they may feel is their motivation. I do think that making a rule for the whole church requiring all healthy adults to fast on the same day of the month and give the equivalent money as charity is at cross-purposes with cultivating the right motivation. I also happen to think it's not the church's business to lay down such a commandment. Fasting and charitable giving should be actions done freely, with no compulsion or religious obligation. You will of course disagree with me, but as far as I'm concerned it's a man-made rule, nothing more.

Again, this issue is not high on my meter of most troubling issues in the LDS religion. It's extremely low on that meter. But the question was asked, and in good faith I have ventured my opinion.

Of course fasting and charitable contributions should be given voluntarily. That's how faithful Latter-day Saints see it, and we don't see it as a "religious obligation," even doing it on a specific day. Rob, the challenge is to simply fast at least one day a month, and to encourage members of your church to do the same. I think most Christians would be very accepting of the idea.

[zerinus]

Scott,

I was already well aware of the fact that the fast day is a commandment in LDS teaching; I said so myself. That question was a lead-in to the next two questions, which your linked article did not address.

Obviously, Mormons don't think of themselves as doing their fasting and charitable giving to be seen before men. And perhaps most really don't act from such a motivation. I don't know what's in their minds or what they may feel is their motivation. I do think that making a rule for the whole church requiring all healthy adults to fast on the same day of the month and give the equivalent money as charity is at cross-purposes with cultivating the right motivation. I also happen to think it's not the church's business to lay down such a commandment. Fasting and charitable giving should be actions done freely, with no compulsion or religious obligation. You will of course disagree with me, but as far as I'm concerned it's a man-made rule, nothing more.

Again, this issue is not high on my meter of most troubling issues in the LDS religion. It's extremely low on that meter. But the question was asked, and in good faith I have ventured my opinion.

Both fasting and praying are commandments of the Lord:

Omni 1:

26 And now, my beloved brethren, I would that ye should come unto Christ, who is the Holy One of Israel, and partake of his salvation, and the power of his redemption. Yea, come unto him, and offer your whole souls as an offering unto him, and continue in fasting and praying, and endure to the end; and as the Lord liveth ye will be saved.

4 Nephi 1:

12 And they did not walk any more after the performances and ordinances of the law of Moses; but they did walk after the commandments which they had received from their Lord and their God, continuing in fasting and prayer, and in meeting together oft both to pray and to hear the word of the Lord.

D&C 88:

76 Also, I give unto you a commandment that ye shall continue in prayer and fasting from this time forth.

The Church has established the monthly fast day in order to establish some kind of routine to accustom church members to the fasting habit. It does not mean that that is the only time that they should fast, or that they will be breaking a cardinal rule if they don’t. There are months that I haven’t fasted at all; and there are months that I have fasted every week (for several months) in order to obtain a special blessing from the Lord.

It is like praying. The scriptures commands us to pray, but it doesn’t set you a timetable. The Church, however, tries to establish a timetable in order to get people into the habit. The Church recommends that we should pray at least twice a day, morning and evening. That is in order to get Church members into the habit. Daniel prayed three times a day. That was a discipline that he had set himself:

Daniel 6:

10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

The psalmist of Psalm 55 believed in praying three times a day too:

Psalms 55:

17 Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.

Although strictly speaking there is no timetable. The commandment is that we should pray always.

The same rule also applies to fasting. There is no timetable. We are commanded to fast often. But the Church establishes the fast day in order to establish a routine or a discipline for Church members to get into the fasting habit. And I think that it is a perfectly correct and appropriate thing to do. How anyone should find that objectionable is beyond me.

[Bernard Gui]

While of course I have no objection to people fasting and giving money to the poor, I do have some reservations about a public, institutionalized religious system of fasting and charity:

The fast offering is not the only thing LDS do, although I appreciate the fact that it is an organized effort and that it

has brought tremendous blessings to the givers and the receivers.

Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.

The LDS practice of giving fast offerings is confidential. The only ones who know who gives offerings are the

bishopric and clerk who account for the money. The Relief Society President helps the bishop determine family or personal needs that can be met by the use of the offerings.

2 "Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

There is no public recognition given to those who contribute to the fast offering fund. Except for the exceptions mentioned

above, no one knows who contributes or how much is given. No trumpets sound when a member gives

a fast offering to the bishop. Would you object if the bishop said, "Thank you"?

3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you....

The offering is given as secretly as can be done yet still be accounted for in a reliable and honest way.

16 "And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

This is foreign to LDS practice and belief. No one makes a show of their fasting.

17 But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18 that your fasting may not be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. (Matt. 6:1-4, 16-18 ESV)

There is no way to know if someone is fasting, except maybe their tummy gurgles once in a while. In addition to the monthly fast to help the poor, many LDS fast in private, with their families and friends, or by invitation of a person who is in need of spiritual support, of their own free will and without any fanfare or recognition. Many LDS fast in secret when seeking the assistance of the Lord with a particular problem. A bishop may call a special ward fast for someone who

is ill or struggling in some other manner. Participation is voluntary and secret.

In addition to the fast offering, which is an organized and orderly way for the bishop to care for the poor in the ward,

many members secretly provide for others. For example, a member to whom I owed a substantial amount of money

on a self-financed mortgage secretly came to me and forgave me of the debt. He had no need of the money and as

a struggling young teacher with 4 children, the debt was onerous for us. As a ward clerk and former bishop, I know of a number of LDS (and not a few) who have secretly donated money and goods to people in need...giving me money

personally as the bishop to assist a specific family or individual, knowing that the Church takes no cut off the top.

It's not unusual for a family in need to open their front door and finding a carload of groceries on the porch and no

one around, or to receive an anonymous envelope with money for food or holidays.

You may now criticize me for sounding a trumpet for these acts of pure Christian love.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

I'm down.

Excellent! Do it!

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

I suspect that there are many works that people of other faiths could challenge us on quite successfully.

I'm sure there are. But that is not the point. The LDS have an ingenious method to alleviate the suffering of others.

I would like to see it spread throughout the country.

For example, if an LDS ward has 250 active members and each gives $10 as a fast offering, the bishop has $2500 at his disposal to bless the lives of his ward members. Even poor people can contribute fast offerings...the value of 2 meals that they don't eat. Rich people can give as much as they want. There is no downside to the practice. Suppose Lions, Kiwanians, Lutherans, Atheists Anonymous, any organization initiated the practice. Suppose a megachurch of 5,000 were to adopt the fast offering...they can hate the LDS all they want...just use this method and they would have thousands of dollars to assist the poor. There would be a substantial amount of money available in the community to help the needy.

It's so simple, even a caveman can do it:

Skip two meals.

Pray and meditate, if you are religious. Don't, if you are not.

Just go hungry for a 24 hours.

Give the value of the meals to the poor.

Multiply your offering if you are financially able.

Administer it with integrity.

No one may take a cut of the offering.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

I'm generally apposed to the idea of introducing any spiritual application by way of a program.

Otherwise, it is a great idea to put into the hearts and minds of people.

Great. Don't consider it a program, then. Just think of it as a way to help the poor.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

I could see something like this happening on a college campus. no food for 2 meals, donate the money you save to third world countries.

That's the spirit! Do it!

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

The Eastern Orthodox fast every day during the forty days before Easter, the forty days before Christmas, and on every Wednesday and Friday during the year (except when one of the twelve Great Feasts falls on a Wednesday or Friday). During each fast, the Orthodox are expected not only to abstain from certain foods and also skip a meal (depending on a person's health and guidance from one's spiritual father) but also to increase almsgiving beyond what is normally expected of a Christian when not fasting.

How 'bout it? Are any LDS readers up to taking the Orthodox challenge?

I rejoice in their devotion.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

Living in Abu Dhabi, Muslims can teach us all something about prayer, fasting, and helping the poor. They are an amazing people that I have come to love deeply and admire always.

I rejoice in their practice of prayer, fasting, and helping the poor. We can do the same in our own way.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

In other words, this would be an OK idea if it didn't bear the taint of Mormonism

That's exactly what I was afraid would happen. "Mormons can do no good." "Mormons have an

organized way to help the poor." "Therefore, having an organized way to help the poor is no good."

I said, regardless of what you think about LDS, this is something worth emulating (copying) or adapting

it any way you wish. It is a positive way to help the poor.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

The collection plate is not for the poor. It's (typically) for the pastor or the church.

I play in the orchestra for a local mega church. They pass around Kentucky Fried Chicken buckets

(unused, of course).

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

I like this practice.

Fasting and almsgiving are the two wings of prayer....St. Augustine

You definitely get it!

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

I suggested your challenge to a co-worker who is Seventh-day Adventist. He said they'll do it as soon as the LDS Church accepts his challenge to publish their basic financial information on the Church website.

I'm sure they have their own way to help the poor. If not, why not consider our way?

'

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

So I always commend a call to fast. Yet in the end, whose reason behind the fast is more important than another? Just pondering here...

The purpose of this particular fast (LDS practice other fasts, too) is to help the poor. That's pretty important.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

The nice thing is fasting and giving offerings blesses the person performing the fast as well as the person receiving the assistance. It is not an either or choice.

It is a winner for all concerned. You don't even have to be religious to do it. A symphony orchestra, a school faculty,

a pro football team, a knitting club, a lawyer's office, whatever.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

It doesn't matter how gently and even cautiously I offer a different point of view, some of you get very defensive and even hostile. I suppose that goes with the territory.

Would you have the same objections if, say, we were at a Rotary Club luncheon, and I got up and said, "I propose we skip two meals a month and donate the cost of the meals to a fund to help poor or homeless people"?

Supposing for the sake of argument that no one can tell whether a Mormon is practicing the fast, the concern I raised based on Christ's words in Matthew 6 are still relevant to the LDS religion as a whole. The very fact that Mormons point out publicly that they engage in this practice and seek to gain some respect in others' eyes by it, even taking some collective pride in the practice (as in this very thread), is enough to merit the concern.

I disagree. I am recommending a good thing to be shared by others. You are falsely assuming I am being boastful.

Has it occurred to you that I may be sincerely seeking a way to engage others to adopt a proven method help the poor?

How is that prideful? You seem to be projecting you fear and distrust of the intentions of the heart of others.

Is observing the fast considered an obligation or commandment?

It is an obligation and a commandment to care for the poor and widows. So what? This is one way LDS do it. It is not

the only way, but it is very effective.

When a member of the LDS Church is interviewed by a bishop to determine the member's faithfulness, is the member asked about his fasting, giving to the poor, or tithing?

I have asked others and been asked if it is possible to increase the amount of fast offerings given because of increased

or special needs. Is that objectionable?

If you saw a healthy fellow Mormon and his family entering a restaurant early Sunday afternoon, would you think less of them, or consider them to be less than fully faithful?

It's not my business to consider the level of their faith or to judge them.

Some of you have tried to deflect attention from this issue by pointing out that evangelical churches pass collection plates during worship services. The comparison is not apt because the collection is for the general expenses of the church and only formal members of the congregation are expected to contribute. That is, the collection is for the purpose of maintaining the congregation's facilities, staff, and programs, of which the church member is a beneficiary. That having been said, evangelical churches are moving away from the practice with the advent of online payment options.

Isn't this boasting and prideful, to praise Evangelical congregations for this practice? I give an offering at the annual

Christmas Eve Mass at the local Polish Catholic Church in honor of my grand-father who was a devoted Catholic.

Is it boastful to state that?

I don't consider this a major issue. However, I do think the concern I expressed has some legitimate basis.

Your concern has no basis at all.

Bernard

Edited December 3, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

I prefer the LDS way of doing it because it is much more private. Although I'm usually in such a hurry that I can only find time to surreptitiously hand the envelope to the Bishop as he sits on the stand about 30 seconds before Sacrament Meeting starts.

You need to slow down.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

"My Church is better than yours" challenges like the one in the OP tend to do that to people.

That certainly was not the intention of the OP, but you already knew that.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

Perhaps this post in particular might appear to boast if viewed by a non-lds audience, I don’t think that was the author’s intent though. I believe they were simply pointing out something that the LDS church practices that the world could benefit from. Alas, it failed because evangelicals refuse to see anything good or worthwhile in any belief system that isn’t their own.

You are accurate in your assessment.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

A regular fast is a good idea. Giving money to the poor is a good idea.

Spending at least one evening a week with family is a good idea.

Good ideas are good ideas.

That's the whole point. Thank you.

Bernard

[Storm Rider]

Both fasting and praying are commandments of the Lord:

Omni 1:

26 And now, my beloved brethren, I would that ye should come unto Christ, who is the Holy One of Israel, and partake of his salvation, and the power of his redemption. Yea, come unto him, and offer your whole souls as an offering unto him, and continue in fasting and praying, and endure to the end; and as the Lord liveth ye will be saved.

4 Nephi 1:

12 And they did not walk any more after the performances and ordinances of the law of Moses; but they did walk after the commandments which they had received from their Lord and their God, continuing in fasting and prayer, and in meeting together oft both to pray and to hear the word of the Lord.

D&C 88:

76 Also, I give unto you a commandment that ye shall continue in prayer and fasting from this time forth.

The Church has established the monthly fast day in order to establish some kind of routine to accustom church members to the fasting habit. It does not mean that that is the only time that they should fast, or that they will be breaking a cardinal rule if they don’t. There are months that I haven’t fasted at all; and there are months that I have fasted every week (for several months) in order to obtain a special blessing from the Lord.

It is like praying. The scriptures commands us to pray, but it doesn’t set you a timetable. The Church, however, tries to establish a timetable in order to get people into the habit. The Church recommends that we should pray at least twice a day, morning and evening. That is in order to get Church members into the habit. Daniel prayed three times a day. That was a discipline that he had set himself:

Daniel 6:

10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

The psalmist of Psalm 55 believed in praying three times a day too:

Psalms 55:

17 Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.

Although strictly speaking there is no timetable. The commandment is that we should pray always.

The same rule also applies to fasting. There is no timetable. We are commanded to fast often. But the Church establishes the fast day in order to establish a routine or a discipline for Church members to get into the fasting habit. And I think that it is a perfectly correct and appropriate thing to do. How anyone should find that objectionable is beyond me.

God has alwasy given commandments to his followers. That is nothing new, but when Rob uses the term "commandment", he states as if there is someone checking upon on everyone's obedience to each law. I think it is a common thought among most EVs. They can never remember that they are not supposed to committ adultery, but if a Mormon obeys the law, then he does so by being forced by his church or his bishop.

We have commandments, but there is no one checking upon on when we fast or how often. We teach that all should fast, but if we miss fasting on Fast Sunday it is no big deal. in fact, we can choose any day we like to fast and be fully in keeping with the teachings of God and the Church.

Rob creates dragons and then pretends to slay them as if they were real. It is a lousy way to gain credibility and frankly, Rob, you have lost all of it with me. I can't trust anything you say because you are dishonest or you knowingly speak from ignorance and then refuse to admit that you do not know. Humility is not such a bad thing.

[Bernard Gui]

Of course fasting and charitable contributions should be given voluntarily. That's how faithful Latter-day Saints see it, and we don't see it as a "religious obligation," even doing it on a specific day. Rob, the challenge is to simply fast at least one day a month, and to encourage members of your church to do the same. I think most Christians would be very accepting of the idea.

You would think so, except it was proposed by a Mormon. Let's forget that I'm LDS and just say an old bald school teacher has

an idea to alleviate poverty and would like to share it with others. Does that make it more palatable?

Bernard

[bluebell]

"My Church is better than yours" challenges like the one in the OP tend to do that to people.

Only the ones with certain types of personalities.

I love the people on this thread who chose to respond favorably to the posts which outlined other churches which fasted in much more difficult ways. Rather than to try to tear those church's down by implying negative things about them, the posters said they would be willing to think about fasting as those other churches do. It reminds me that defensiveness usually says more about the person than then what they are responding to.

Such posters are good examples to me because all to often my weak personality traits are the ones i'm highlighting.

[Bernard Gui]

Anyone willing to propose this in a group to which they belong?

I truly believe it is an idea worth sharing and it can alleviate suffering

among the poor and homeless.

Bernard