I Am So Torn

[altersteve]

I do not believe the first vision story. I do not believe the tales that include him running on a bad leg at night through fields carrying the plates and still outrunning people. I have problems with how he was told about the plates in comparison with other tales of the day. I have a problem with the fact that how it was translated changed over the years. I have problems with a young uneducated man in backwoods 1880s America translating something from a language no one has heard of and coming up with language that sounds like very learned British Scholars from 1600s England. I have problems with lifting chapters from the KJV of the Bible. I have problems with all the "and it came to pass". It makes the book sound like someone was inventing a story, but, in an effort to sound Biblical, he peppered the book with that phrase.

Please do not get me wrong, I WANT to believe those things. But praying has not helped.

I listen to LDS singers on occasion. One of my favorites is Hilary Weeks. She has a song called "More Like a Whisper" that I LOVE. It is so true.....but yet, I do not even hear the whisper.

Forgive my ranting. But, it feels good to discuss this.

I feel you, Brother Dallas. I have struggled with the same issues. But there are answers to all of them, I assure you. Keep searching for truth and it will come. Like I said, God wants nothing more than for His children to be happy, and He knows completely that you can't be happy if you're feeling this way. If I may share some other scriptures with you that I hope will help:

"And whosoever shall believe in my name, doubting nothing, unto him will I confirm all my words, even unto the ends of the earth. ... O then despise not, and wonder not, but hearken unto the words of the Lord, and ask the Father in the name of Jesus for what things soever ye shall stand in need. Doubt not, but be believing, and begin as in times of old, and come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him" (Mormon 9:25, 27).

"Look unto me in every thought; doubt not, fear not" (D&C 6:36).

"Search diligently, pray always, and be believing, and all things shall work together for your good, if ye walk uprightly and remember the covenant wherewith ye have covenanted one with another" (D&C 90:24).

[KevinG]

One specific issue you brought up was the use of KJV language. Remember that Joseph was educated using the Bible and his expression of revelatory language would naturally be influenced by the Bible.

Look at some of Abraham Lincolns speeches (another back woods youth educated from the Bible) and you will see similar classic language patterns when expressing high ideals.

My .02

[ERayR]

I have a very good LDS friend who says the same thing. I often wonder if the pull I feel is God, or just the good feelings I have. Is it God, or my desire? If it is God, then why can;t I get a testimony of the two critical issues? (Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith). If I was not bald, this would make me want to pull my hair out

Testimonies don't just come flying out of thin air. They have to be sought and built. How much study do you put into the Book of Mormon? What is it about its message you reject? I know there are some who do not think so but it is my stand that if you accept The Book of Mormon then it only follows that Joseph Smith was a prophet.

[bluebell]

I have a very good LDS friend who says the same thing. I often wonder if the pull I feel is God, or just the good feelings I have. Is it God, or my desire? If it is God, then why can;t I get a testimony of the two critical issues? (Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith). If I was not bald, this would make me want to pull my hair out

Many times in the Bible, Jesus commands people not to doubt, but to 'be believing'. It wasn't until recently that i've begun to realize that his words even were a commandment, and more importantly, why He would make such a command.

I have felt the power of allowing disbelief into my life in certain areas and it was a staggering personal revelation when i was finally able to understand, for me (because i certainly can't speak for anyone else), the danger in cultivating or focusing my thoughts and feelings on doubt. When i focused on a doubt i was having, i discovered it was impossible to have faith in it, regardless of how much i wanted to. I had to literally put my doubts away first before i could feel the spirit testify of their truth.

This experience led me to consider that the reason that Christ commands us to 'be believing' is because He knows it's an essential step to gaining a testimony. He's not just being wise or reinforcing the need for faith as a part of salvation. I think He's expressing the very real and very necessary role that belief plays in being able to recieve a witness from the spirit.

I don't know you and obviously can't tell you what steps you need to take to get where you seem to want to be. All i can do is express some personal examples and wisdom that i have had in my own life and hope that it somehow can help you find peace in yours. Having said that, i'm wondering, have you ever thought about following the commandment to 'be believing' as it pertains to the first vistion and book of mormon for a length of time (like a couple of weeks, or a month maybe) to see what happene?.

I don't mean pretending. I mean just deciding that for a certain amount of time you are going to function and think as if you have no doubts about those issues. Making belief a choice that you have complete control over instead of something that comes or goes regardless of what you want or hope, and seeing if 'doubting not' makes any difference.

Maybe it's worth a try.

[KevinG]

I can honestly understand why a lawyer would struggle to "shelve" evidence that they couldn't find a place for in the big picture. Suspention of disbelief can be a struggle when trying to form a comprehensive picture of something.

On the other hand don't be too sure that all of the critical issues are really issues at all. I was amazed at the number of "historical" facts that just weren't so (faith promoting and faith destroying) when I started getting into amateur apologetics.

[sjdawg]

If you wish, you can contact me by PM, and give me your list of biggest concerns from the history, and I will be happy to clarify and make okay those issues, by telling you the full truth, so you may know, that there is little in the Churches past, that is actually a problem.

seriously? Glad you know the full truth. I usually just here that there is too much we don't know and won't know until the next life. Got that from a well know GA and many other Church leaders. How did you get blessed with the full truth that others are missing?

[stevedallas]

Thank you all so very much for your answers. You know, maybe DaddyG hit the nail on the head: as an attorney, evidence is such an important part of my life. I have been an attorney over 21 years. I have prosecuted and defended both criminal and civil trials. I have looked at this the only way I know how.

But here is the conundrum: I firmly and strongly believe in God and in Jesus Christ His Son. Many would say I am fool for believing. But I do. I can;t prove He exists, though, in my mind, the mere fact we exist is proof of that. Why does my attorney mind have no problem with the existence of God, but struggle with the Joseph Smith story? As an attorney, I see a story full of holes. I see so many issues with the surrounding climate that make it difficult for my legal mind to accept.

Sigh.

[sjdawg]

One specific issue you brought up was the use of KJV language. Remember that Joseph was educated using the Bible and his expression of revelatory language would naturally be influenced by the Bible.

Look at some of Abraham Lincolns speeches (another back woods youth educated from the Bible) and you will see similar classic language patterns when expressing high ideals.

My .02

so the BOM was not translated word for word as some of the histories indicate? (I seem to remember being told a story that he often spelled the words out for his scribe, but I'm not sure of the source). Was it a translation or an interpretation and paraphrasing?

Edited October 27, 2011 by sjdawg

[sjdawg]

Testimonies don't just come flying out of thin air. They have to be sought and built. How much study do you put into the Book of Mormon? What is it about its message you reject? I know there are some who do not think so but it is my stand that if you accept The Book of Mormon then it only follows that Joseph Smith was a prophet.

But it doesn't necessarily follow that the LDS church is true.

[thesometimesaint]

stevedallas:

I do not believe the first vision story. I do not believe the tales that include him running on a bad leg at night through fields carrying the plates and still outrunning people. I have problems with how he was told about the plates in comparison with other tales of the day. I have a problem with the fact that how it was translated changed over the years. I have problems with a young uneducated man in backwoods 1880s America translating something from a language no one has heard of and coming up with language that sounds like very learned British Scholars from 1600s England. I have problems with lifting chapters from the KJV of the Bible. I have problems with all the "and it came to pass". It makes the book sound like someone was inventing a story, but, in an effort to sound Biblical, he peppered the book with that phrase.

What's not to believe. It is a young man reporting on what he experienced. We have no way of proving one way or the other his experience. The timing was right, the place was right. JS had a serious question that he resolved the best way he knew how.

He didn't have a "bad" leg. He walked with a slight limp. There is a difference.

Carring even 40LBS with many stops isn't all that hard for a strong young man in the early 19th Century of rural America. In my younger days I've carried half my body weight(I weighed 97 LBS, and the pack weighed 50 LBS) up to elevations over 12,000 ft. It took about 9 hours with plenty of stops

It was common "knowledge" that people didn't write on gold plates in 1830. Joseph was mocked for it when thieves failed in their attempts to steal them.

No one doubts that JS wasn't well educated. That he couldn't compose a simple paragraph without help from his wife. The language is reformed Egyptian and no old world examples(Demotic) were available till long after the BoM was published.

The BoM says that it is quoting Isaiah, and it is a few few pages including commentary.

"And it came to pass" isn't good English, but it is perfectly fine Hebrew.

Joseph claims to have deliberately used KJV English because it sounded more Scriptural to him.

[ERayR]

But it doesn't necessarily follow that the LDS church is true.

seriously? Glad you know the full truth. I usually just here that there is too much we don't know and won't know until the next life. Got that from a well know GA and many other Church leaders. How did you get blessed with the full truth that others are missing?

Did you get lost and wander in off the street?

[sjdawg]

Did you get lost and wander in off the street?

something like that.

[LeSellers]

but [ I ] struggle with the Joseph Smith story? As an attorney, I see a story full of holes. I see so many issues with the surrounding climate that make it difficult for my legal mind to accept.

I have been studying it longer than you (longer than most here). I have seen the holes, and I can tell you that the holes are more a perception than they are a reality.

I'll give you an example you did not raise:

When John the Baptist came and conferred the Aaronic Priesthood on Joseph and Oliver, something very strange happened, or rather, the obvious thing failed to happen. First, the Baptist did not baptize them. He ordained them as Priests giving them the authority to baptize. He then commanded them to baptize each other. Then, and this is just as telling, he had them re-ordain each other. He did not give them the Gift of the Holy Ghost, either, although (at least as far as I can guess) he held, at that point, the Melchizedek Priesthood.

He told Joseph and Oliver that he was acting under the authority of Peter, James and John, and that these three ancient Apostles would arrive later with more information (and, presumably, more power). He, John the Baptist, was acting within his stewardship, as the Elias/forerunner of the coming of Christ; passing along his "mantle" as it were, to the next Elias, the prophet of the Restoration of the Gospel, Church, and Priesthood of Christ.

Any man who had made this up would have had John (a resurrected being) do the ordinance, and then ordain the two of them. He might even have John give him the Holy Ghost, as well. But Joseph was not making it up: he told us what actually occurred. One thing that runs through the Restoration accounts is that God does not do for us what we can do for ourselves. He does the least necessary to get the mission accomplished, but no more. He gives us light a little at a time, and then waits a bit to see how we use it. If well, then He gives us more. If not, He waits a little longer, or finds someone else to get 'er done.

In contrast, I give you Herbert W. Armstrong. I read his story in the Worldwide Church of God's journal (The Plain Truth, as I recall). He said, quite unlike Joseph, that he felt called to restore the Gospel, and that he needed to be baptized. So he found a preacher who'd baptize him, but not into his church—just perform the act. There was nothing revelatory about the Armstrong experience—just something he felt he must do. Joseph, on the other hand, went to God, asked about the necessity of baptism, and God took it from there.

Are there holes in the Restoration history? I'm sure there are, but I'm even more sure that those holes are "account" holes, not "history" holes. Everything I have investigated has matched up. I have been investigating for more than 50 years. If there's anything that remains unexposed, it is extremely well hidden, because I have looked. "If it's missing," one might be tempted to ask, "how would you know?" It may be that I would not know, but there are no inexplicable gaps. All the important things, things one would expect to find, those things are there; they fit, and they blend into the narrative without jagged, abrupt discontinuities.

There are no holes on this side of the investigation.

Lehi

Edited October 27, 2011 by LeSellers

[Calm]

"And it came to pass" isn't good English, but it is perfectly fine Hebrew.

As well as Mesoamerican. There is even a specific glyph that can be translated as "it came to pass" and functions the same way as the phrase did in the original format.

There is a picture of the glyph on nosmelone's art page, but you probably can also find it with more info on the Maxwell Institute site....I'd get it for you but I am supposed to be taking a nap, parents are coming for an overnighter and I haven't slept for more than two hours last night.....too many interesting conversations I guess.

[Calm]

something like that.

Remember this is Social, no debate allowed, though I doubt there would be a problem with presenting your own pov in a positive way as long as it's okay with the OPer. Mods are a lot tighter in here, you probably don't want to get dinged..... Edited October 27, 2011 by calmoriah

[altersteve]

Joseph claims to have deliberately used KJV English because it sounded more Scriptural to him.

I don't doubt this at all, but where did Joseph say this?

[bluebell]

Thank you all so very much for your answers. You know, maybe DaddyG hit the nail on the head: as an attorney, evidence is such an important part of my life. I have been an attorney over 21 years. I have prosecuted and defended both criminal and civil trials. I have looked at this the only way I know how.

But here is the conundrum: I firmly and strongly believe in God and in Jesus Christ His Son. Many would say I am fool for believing. But I do. I can;t prove He exists, though, in my mind, the mere fact we exist is proof of that. Why does my attorney mind have no problem with the existence of God, but struggle with the Joseph Smith story? As an attorney, I see a story full of holes. I see so many issues with the surrounding climate that make it difficult for my legal mind to accept.

Sigh.

Part of the problem COULD be that you haven't been exposed to as much ancient history so you aren't yet aware of how often things in the bible match the climate at the time as well as match pagan sources.

THen again, you're a lawyer who's obviously had a lot of schooling so maybe you have taken religion courses and already know all of that. That was just one thing that popped into my head. I've taken religion classes and it was a struggle for a lot of the Christians in the class when we got into comparing pagan creation myths with bible stories because they weren't aware before of how similar they were.

[stevedallas]

Part of the problem COULD be that you haven't been exposed to as much ancient history so you aren't yet aware of how often things in the bible match the climate at the time as well as match pagan sources.

THen again, you're a lawyer who's obviously had a lot of schooling so maybe you have taken religion courses and already know all of that. That was just one thing that popped into my head. I've taken religion classes and it was a struggle for a lot of the Christians in the class when we got into comparing pagan creation myths with bible stories because they weren't aware before of how similar they were.

I am familiar with the pagan myths and the early Christians. I also am aware of things like pagan festivals and Christmas. I have no problem with those issues. I can see plenty of justification for them

[bluebell]

I am familiar with the pagan myths and the early Christians. I also am aware of things like pagan festivals and Christmas. I have no problem with those issues. I can see plenty of justification for them

How do you justify the flood story with Gilgamesh? I know that was a hard one for a lot of people in my class and it's always interesting to see how one person can completely justify it while another finds it unjustifiable and a major chink in the armor of the bible.

[stevedallas]

I have always looked at it that the Biblical account is true and, because of it, other accounts of a great flood sprung up. This does not bother me. There are striking differences in the stories, which is understandable

[bluebell]

I have always looked at it that the Biblical account is true and, because of it, other accounts of a great flood sprung up. This does not bother me. There are striking differences in the stories, which is understandable

I feel the same way. I could understand though why some would be bothered learning for the first time that the gilgamesh legend was so much older than the old testament account. What about other evidences that speak strongly against a global flood? Do those bother you at all?

I know another issue that bothered some in my class was the prevelance of 'virgin birth' stories in mythology. Many had been taught that the miracle of the virgin birth was evidence for the divinity of Jesus. WHen confronted with the virgin birth of pagan dieties, it was hard for them to reconcile those with what a virgin birth meant to them.

[stevedallas]

Everyone is entitled their own belief. What they believe does not affect me

[bluebell]

Everyone is entitled their own belief. What they believe does not affect me

Of course it doesn't.

It's just interesting to see the different ways that people approach the exact same topics and come to different conclusions. For you, the evidence suggests that the first vision can't be true. For others, it's the virgin birth, the resurrection, or the flood story that the evidences suggest are false. What you, or i, take on faith, others can't seem to, and vice versa. It's fascinating to me.

For me, i've always looked at it that the first vision and book of mormon accounts are true, so there must be other explanations for things that people sometimes take issue with. For you, your previous belief in the truthfulness of the bible makes it possible for you to discount issues that other people have with the things it contains. It's interesting how often our testimonies are based on the foundation of what we've grown up believing to be true and how hard it can be to have faith in things that don't come with that pre-made foundation.

What other people believe doesn't affect us, but what we've grown up believing certainly does.

[Garden Girl]

Hello SteveDallas...

It's 12:50 a.m. here on the Oregon coast... but I couldn't stop reading this thead. I want to encourage you not to give up... and, I want to share an experience with you that I had not too long ago. I've told this before so I hope other posters will bear with me...

It was Oct '09 and for a few weeks before gen conf I had had an uneasy feeling about some of the posts here on the board. I can't say I had "doubts" per se because I'm fortunate to have a strong testimony, but at times you will note that our critics post some thoughts and views that can give one pause and cause one to go to the scriptures and other LDS writings for clarity for ourselves.

Anyway, conference arrived (I love GC too), and I as just settling into my big wingback chair, listening to the Choir and thinking to myself how beautiful was the music...

Suddenly out of nowhere, I heard that "still small voice" speak to my heart and mind as if someone was standing right next to me... "Do not be afraid... the Gospel is correct... stay faithful, stay true."

Can you imagine how that thrilled me so... that tears came to my eyes and I thanked Heavenly Father for that witness by the Spirit. So unexpected... and so comforting. I watched GC with a deeper sense of gratitude for my testimony... for the gospel... for my blessings everyday...

Again, I encourage you to be patient... and do not be afraid...

GG

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Hello SteveDallas...

It's 12:50 a.m. here on the Oregon coast... but I couldn't stop reading this thead. I want to encourage you not to give up... and, I want to share an experience with you that I had not too long ago. I've told this before so I hope other posters will bear with me...

It was Oct '09 and for a few weeks before gen conf I had had an uneasy feeling about some of the posts here on the board. I can't say I had "doubts" per se because I'm fortunate to have a strong testimony, but at times you will note that our critics post some thoughts and views that can give one pause and cause one to go to the scriptures and other LDS writings for clarity for ourselves.

Anyway, conference arrived (I love GC too), and I as just settling into my big wingback chair, listening to the Choir and thinking to myself how beautiful was the music...

Suddenly out of nowhere, I heard that "still small voice" speak to my heart and mind as if someone was standing right next to me... "Do not be afraid... the Gospel is correct... stay faithful, stay true."

Can you imagine how that thrilled me so... that tears came to my eyes and I thanked Heavenly Father for that witness by the Spirit. So unexpected... and so comforting. I watched GC with a deeper sense of gratitude for my testimony... for the gospel... for my blessings everyday...

Again, I encourage you to be patient... and do not be afraid...

GG

One of the things that impress me is, for the men we sustain as “Prophets, Seers and Revelators”, it would be so easy to think too much of themselves…yet they are so grounded and so humble. In other words they reflect the Master (Christ) whom they serve, and do not seek the accolades of the world. In short; I love them.