Mechanisms Of Atonement

[Maidservant]

But, behold, the judgments of God will overtake the wicked; and it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished; for it is the wicked that stir up the hearts of the children of men unto bloodshed. ~ Moroni 4:5

That is a great verse. Forgot about that one .

I spent a long time trying to understand the Atonement... I'm not done learning, but I see it in a new way.

The root of behavior (sin) are incorrect thoughts. How can anybody save us from our thoughts, but us?

We are taught to pray to God in Jesus' name, but never directly TO Jesus.

"A relationship is only as good as it's communication (relating)." So how can I trust Jesus to save me, when I don't relate with him?

Joseph Smith taught that we are our own condemners. "As a man thinketh, so is he."

Last month's Visiting Teaching Message, Joseph Smith also taught,

"After [my] instruction, you will be responsible for your own sins; it is a desirable honor that you should so walk before our heavenly Father as to save yourselves; we are all responsible to God for the manner we improve the light and wisdom given by our Lord to enable us to save ourselves."

I think what Joseph meant was to do all we can to progress, that essentially our spirituality is our responsibility.

As we know, we have a carnal nature, which isn't as interested in saving ourselves spiritually as temporally & egotistically.

The conflicting goals of our carnal & spiritual nature can present challenges not only in behavior, but also behavior's root... beliefs.

It can be sad to throw out the "old wine bottles," (old beliefs) even though "new bottles" are needed for "new wine" (New approaches for new perspectives). -Matt 9:17 Still, Gospel = Good News!! Good news is not just a one time event & then, no more good news. It's continual. "Eternal life is to know God" -John 17:3, which is a constant challenge & wonderful discovery. We are not just spiritually "born again" once - but born again & again (which the birth of Jesus represents)... Yet, birth is preceded by a type of death or change, which can be challenging. Still, our purpose & real joy is found in progressing by seeking God/Love.

Chist is not Jesus' last name, but what he became & encouraged us to become... "an heir of God through Christ." -Gal 4:7

Moses learned & taught that our experience of God is truly in the present & within... "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM." -

Exodus 3:14 Consider God/"I AM" with the scripture, "I AM the way, the truth & the life." -John 14:6 Jesus never intended us to worship him... always gave glory to God... & corrected when one refered to him as good master, "None is good, save one, that is God." Luke 18:19

So, when considering the Atonement, we must learn to think deeper & be, "not children in understanding." 1Cor 14:20.

"Without a parable spake he not unto them." -Matt 13:34 Jesus spoke in parables, so each could understand according to their spiritual & psychological development. "He that findeth his life, shall lose it: & he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." -Matt 10:39 Literally, this seems to imply physical life & death, but spiritually, it implies spiritual life & death. "To be carnally minded is death." -Rom 8:6)

I think the atonment is essentially making at one (uniting) the goals of both our carnal & spiritual selves... which also involves correcting harm we may have caused.

Hi, Heather! I love when you make comments! I think you make some good points, and also have some great scriptures here. And even in our Sacrament prayers we have the saying to take upon us His name. So that is worth exploring what that means.

I think there is a difference between being responsible for our spiritual salvation; and being capable of effecting it.

We are definitely responsible for our salvation. We have Abraham doing this (in Chapter 1 of Abraham):

2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.

3 It was conferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me.

4 I sought for mine appointment unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God unto the fathers concerning the seed.

*****

However, I know from experience (maybe others have a different experience) that I, Maidservant, am simply not capable of doing good or of rising above the worst in my nature (by whatever term: carnal, fallen, weak, sin, whatever . . . but I sabotage myself) UNLESS I have the grace of Jesus Christ. He must labor with me, and give me of his energy (atonement). . . or I can do nothing and I will fail/fall. And when he is with me, it is impossible to fail.

So how does he provide this grace for me is also a good question. How does that come from him (mechanistically), and how does it arrive at me, and what effects does it have on my body and spirit, and by what means or mechanism?

Admittedly, I think a lot of the work of grace IS to have our eyes opened to new beliefs that are based more closely on God and Christ . . . to realize that we can love ourselves and others and that we can be clean, and that we no longer have to fear what man and devil can do. But I also think there are material effects of grace upon our bodies and spirits, to enlighten them (for example), until we become sanctified and exalted and immortal.

Atonement and grace takes us from wherever we are at in our progression (and there is a more or less specific process we all pass through), and takes us as far as we are willing to go. But we must have God with us, whether the Holy Ghost, Jesus Christ, or the Father and, really, all three together in one.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Maidservant

[Rob Osborn]

There are many things in the scriptures. Some times I think there are varying levels of laws even that we can choose from in the scriptures, whenever we are ready for them (could be wrong on that).

A man who kills 70 women needs to be STOPPED . . . . IMMEDIATELY. And righteous or just or mentally healthy people should nurture their own strength to become strong enough to STOP all madness like this. But STOPPING or LIMITING one who will harm other human beings (which is also helping them to stop their own sinning), is different than additionally harming them in return for what they did. In the case of a man like this (who is probably SICK), you may think that they would deserve additional pain, and perhaps such a thing would be justified, but NOT THE ONLY CHOICE. It is possible to have compassion for even a person like this, and to help him as far as he is willing to go and able to go, to change (and our ability to help him change is dependent on our own faith and knowledge; for example, maybe we will discover a medical brain operation that will help serial killers . . . so why punish when they can just have a procedure done? kind of thing). I have a hard time believing that a person who makes these kinds of killings really wants to be that person deep inside himself, and he would like to be free of these things. Also a person who does wrong ought to make as much restitution as possible, but how can you restitute on a murder? You can't.

However, there are choices on how we respond to evil. I heard that in some Native American cultures (could be wrong), when they took war captives from their enemies, they would make them their sons and daughters to replace their own sons and daughters that had died in the fight. So this was their idea of restitution.

In the Book of Mormon, there are a lot of responses to evil, and all of them justified, no doubt, but there are choices. For example, I LOVE Helaman 6:37 "And it came to pass that the Lamanites did hunt the band of robbers of Gadianton; and they did preach the word of God among the more wicked part of them, insomuch that this band of robbers was utterly destroyed from among the Lamanites." So how were Gadiantons destroyed? By teaching them until they were no longer Gadiantons.

I also love Helaman chapter 5, where the brother Nephi and Lehi were missionaries and got themselves cast into prison. And for many days they were treated horribly. But in the end, they were ALL, both those who were harming and those harmed, able to share a most miraculous experience of fire, light, revelation, redemption and love (although the wicked in the story first repented when they saw what was starting to happen).

Also there are many oppressions and wickedness in this world, and many children of God are perpretators of these combinations . . . and YES these things God (and those who serve God) breaks and/or will break, with no hesitation.

I will reply to other posters, but I am out of time at the moment. Great thoughts everyone.

A person who uses his own agency to disobey and become wicked is by law and the demands of justice, condemned. This condemnation not only holds back blessings, it is a type of punishment in that it causes them suffering in restricted ways by the just parts of the law which demands a penalty to be paid or endured. In some degree, be it small or great, we suffer penalties when we disobey. If I remove my sons right to his x-box because of bad grades, that is thus a "punishment".

I do not believe in a God who does not inflict just punishment when and where it is thus justified and demanded by law. We are not a society that has gotten here without a knowledge of there being a punishment in place. We are not animals, we are humans capable of a high degree of manipulation and secret designs on the one hand and on the flip side we can be the most benevolent and righteous beings.

I am reminded of when Korihor came amongst the people and was teaching the people about denying Christ when he knew better. Alma tells him that if he continues to do this that God will smite him and cause him to become dumb (punishment). Korihor tempts God with a "show me a sign", and so what does God do? He smites him and causes him to become dumb. This is just one instance of countless instances where God does issue punishments by his power upon the wicked and disobedient.Let's look at Satan as another example

. When he rebelled in heaven, what did God cause that should come upon hm? He caused him to be cast out of heaven and denied blessings. Deep down did Satan really want this? Well, he did seek that which was unrighteous before the throne of God. God both blesses and punishes. Many times we bring upon our own selves natural consequences but that doesn't mean that the justice of God is stayed. God does punish.

[mercyngrace]

You have to look at the context of this quote. It is talking about God's punishment of living mortals. It does not refer to God's punishment of the wicked in the afterlife, which God either exacts in his anger himself (according to Mormon theology circa 1829-30: See D&C 19:15) or we cause in our own minds (according the King Follett sermon).

I hear you, Cobalt. I'm well aware of the context Are you suggesting that God follows one pattern of behavior here and another hereafter?

[Darth_Bill]

Why cannot God do what we do everyday, forgive each other. If it is some other law that required an atonement, that law provides for punishment, death, suffering of the only one not deserving it and calls it "good". I'm having a problem envisioning such a universe as it also goes against all my appreciation of Western justice. Maybe I'm guilty of presentism but I think that many of the premises we use for the atonement are flawed.

[HeatherAnn]

Hi, Heather! I love when you make comments! I think you make some good points, and also have some great scriptures here. And even in our Sacrament prayers we have the saying to take upon us His name. So that is worth exploring what that means.

I think there is a difference between being responsible for our spiritual salvation; and being capable of effecting it.

We are definitely responsible for our salvation. We have Abraham doing this (in Chapter 1 of Abraham):

2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.

3 It was conferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me.

4 I sought for mine appointment unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God unto the fathers concerning the seed.

*****

However, I know from experience (maybe others have a different experience) that I, Maidservant, am simply not capable of doing good or of rising above the worst in my nature (by whatever term: carnal, fallen, weak, sin, whatever . . . but I sabotage myself) UNLESS I have the grace of Jesus Christ. He must labor with me, and give me of his energy (atonement). . . or I can do nothing and I will fail/fall. And when he is with me, it is impossible to fail.

So how does he provide this grace for me is also a good question. How does that come from him (mechanistically), and how does it arrive at me, and what effects does it have on my body and spirit, and by what means or mechanism?

Admittedly, I think a lot of the work of grace IS to have our eyes opened to new beliefs that are based more closely on God and Christ . . . to realize that we can love ourselves and others and that we can be clean, and that we no longer have to fear what man and devil can do. But I also think there are material effects of grace upon our bodies and spirits, to enlighten them (for example), until we become sanctified and exalted and immortal.

Atonement and grace takes us from wherever we are at in our progression (and there is a more or less specific process we all pass through), and takes us as far as we are willing to go. But we must have God with us, whether the Holy Ghost, Jesus Christ, or the Father and, really, all three together in one.

Maidservant,

Thanks for your positivity.

If we're talking about mechanics... some would explain spiritual help (aka saving grace of Jesus) as our subconscious mind giving us clues of guidance/love. I believe there's more to it than that... that we exist (somehow - in some type of dimension) spiritually - unconditionally.

I do believe in God that permeates ALL... but I also realize that "the kingdom (my experience/interepration) of God is within" me. -Luke 17:21

Spiritual feelings need to work in harmony with intellect/common sense.

I believe we have saviors in spirit & body... those who help us here & there, are acting as saviors, in a way.

All of these influences cannot help but be filtered & interpreted through our minds... so as "carnal" as our minds can be, they are an essential part of the process.

How we interpret affects how we feel & how we are physically (dis-ease or at ease) & how we behave.

Along with the idea that we create God in our image... how we define/interpret spiritual experiences, scriptures etc...

The advesary is also subjective... what is tempting for me may not be tempting for you.

So - our joys or fears... our heaven or hell is self-created. That's why it's essential we take more responsibility for our psychology (study of the soul) which is inseparably part of our spirituality.

Edited October 5, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[HeatherAnn]

...I cannot accept the atonement, because anyone who would be bound to perpetuate it is no god worthy of worship. I even have doubts about my being able to respect such a being. Such a god would be powerless to "save" his beloved children any other way? Really? Then my "Father" is a puny god.

My concept for "God" does not require any such infantile atonement "games". My "God" does not need to "save" anyone or anything. And because nothing and no one requires saving - having been created to advance Joy; for after all, what greater possible purpose for Existence is there? - it follows logically that "God" can save or punish as needed, according to the explicit condition of each person. And not being bound in any degree by the space-time that "God" institutes, there is no such thing ultimately as a lost soul. What would be the point in that? Creating souls with free will must be intended for something other than being "lost". And my finite charity tells me that Joy is the ultimate purpose of Existence, ergo all and sundry souls are bound to discover perfect, eternal Joy sooner or later.

I've felt similarly... when singing or hearing songs about how when we screw up, we're adding to Jesus' excruciating pain.

What a twisted belief, if you think about it! It's just so part of tradition that nobody gives it any 2nd thought... esp. since those who don't "confess" a name are considered condemned to hell. It reminds me of times when subjects must show respect to Kings etc... or else! And indeed, the bible was interpretted & phrased in ways to support political power.

I can relate with not needing to be saved... Like a loving & eternally patient parent, God trusts us to experience & learn, so we can progress & have joy.

Yet, I can also see that sometimes the lessons are too much to bear & we can & should help each other, especially since we're connected, spiritually.

What do you mean by, "God" can save or punish as needed, according to the explicit condition of each person"?

[mercyngrace]

Why cannot God do what we do everyday, forgive each other.

Why do you forgive people? What motivates you to forgive an individual?

If it is some other law that required an atonement, that law provides for punishment, death, suffering of the only one not deserving it and calls it "good".

Should a woman have to lay her life on the line and suffer exquisite pain to give birth to a child? Can it be that there is something inherent in the act of suffering for another that creates a bond? Does an act of pure selflessness by one who willingly put our needs above his/her own have the power to influence who we become and how we develop?

I'm having a problem envisioning such a universe as it also goes against all my appreciation of Western justice. Maybe I'm guilty of presentism but I think that many of the premises we use for the atonement are flawed.

I think there are many lens through which we see the atonement and inevitably, the picture we see at any given time is more a reflection of us than of the atonement, its power to effectively save even the least among us, and the One who carried out the infinite and eternal act.

And I think there is a much more beautiful truth than the flawed metaphors of men can convey.

[Cobalt-70]

I hear you, Cobalt. I'm well aware of the context Are you suggesting that God follows one pattern of behavior here and another hereafter?

That's what the Book of Mormon and early D&C say, not me. I'm personally in the more liberal "God does not punish" camp. So I don't think he personally punishes here or in the hereafter. I view the early Mormon references to punishment by a vengeful angry God as remnants from Calvinism that hadn't yet worked themselves out of Mormon theology.

[CV75]

I hear you, Cobalt. I'm well aware of the context Are you suggesting that God follows one pattern of behavior here and another hereafter?

God always acts in accordance with eternal law, and part of that is how He responds to us before, during and after the Judgment.

During mortality, He responds to our agency in ways that are designed to maximize our exercise of it. During the Judgment, He intervenes no more; He has done all He can by eternal law. After the Judgment, He lives with the level of agency (degree of glory) we are willing to receive.

These responses have their attendant emotional components (anger, displeasure, wrath, compassion, acceptance, approval, joy, being well-pleased, etc.).

The atonement makes the probationary state possible.

[CV75]

That's what the Book of Mormon and early D&C say, not me. I'm personally in the more liberal "God does not punish" camp. So I don't think he personally punishes here or in the hereafter. I view the early Mormon references to punishment by a vengeful angry God as remnants from Calvinism that hadn't yet worked themselves out of Mormon theology.

I think there are times when He does personally punish or bless directly in mortality as a teaching or course-correction method in response to our choices. I think this is part of His role as a Shepherd. I believe He may also do this through delegated authority, whether that is through spouses, parents, leaders, etc.

[altersteve]

I think there is much more to the Atonement than many of us think. We are all taught the basics of the Atonement, that Jesus Christ came to earth to take our sins upon Himself so that we may obtain eternal life, but that's not all the Atonement is: it allows us to become one with God, and that's a very complex concept I think that we cannot yet fully understand. I too have struggled with the idea that we agreed to come to earth knowing that our Savior would have to be brutally tortured. But this makes me realize that there is obviously much more to the Atonement than we sometimes think. I'm still trying to figure it all out, but I've been looking at it from a new perspective lately that's made me appreciate it even more.

[mercyngrace]

That's what the Book of Mormon and early D&C say, not me. I'm personally in the more liberal "God does not punish" camp. So I don't think he personally punishes here or in the hereafter. I view the early Mormon references to punishment by a vengeful angry God as remnants from Calvinism that hadn't yet worked themselves out of Mormon theology.

That's where I stand also. Our understanding evolves as we are prepared to receive higher light and knowledge. It is perfectly expected that as we mature spiritually, both individually and as a people, our view of eternal principles and theological concepts matures.

I don't believe God punishes us now or later. I believe we punish ourselves and each other and that the atonement provides the pattern for how we are to overcome this cycle of suffering.

[Calm]

I think there are times when He does personally punish or bless directly in mortality as a teaching or course-correction method in response to our choices. I think this is part of His role as a Shepherd. I believe He may also do this through delegated authority, whether that is through spouses, parents, leaders, etc.

I can see this.

It is punishment purely to balance the scales of justice that I take issue with in that God has already demonstrated that he is perfectly happy to apply mercy when the option is there. If there is any punishment applied by God, it must involve a teaching component as I don't think God would waste the opportunity and he would have the ability to adapt punishment for that purpose. The scriptures are full of the concept that punishment is for the purpose of humbling the sinner so he is more open to listening to the Lord and that God is not happy about having to use even this type of punishment.

Edited October 5, 2011 by calmoriah

[CV75]

That's where I stand also. Our understanding evolves as we are prepared to receive higher light and knowledge. It is perfectly expected that as we mature spiritually, both individually and as a people, our view of eternal principles and theological concepts matures.

I don't believe God punishes us now or later. I believe we punish ourselves and each other and that the atonement provides the pattern for how we are to overcome this cycle of suffering.

I agree with this too. I think there is room for aspects of a number of the ideas presented in this thread. I can see that: 1) God adheres to eternal law and principle; 2) that we learn as individuals and collectively line upon line, precept upon precept and God likewise reveals more truth as we are ready and His purposes are fulfilled; 3) that God is a Teacher and Shepherd and responds to the learning requirements of His children according to the agency they exercise, including as-needed punishment, blessing and other interventions in our behalf during mortality; 5) that the laws governing the consequences of our actions are not on “autopilot” 100% of the time (and I do agree that the unrepentant ultimately punish themselves because they reject the source of their deliverance) by virtue of the atonement, allowing God to thus intervene; 6) that His ways are usually expressed in terms of the present, requiring discernment to see which phase (when not all) of our experience is being addressed in a passage scripture; 7) that emotion is a component of His experience.

When I think of God acting out of vengeance, anger, wrath, etc., I think of how I have experienced these emotions and motives in unrighteousness. He took these upon Himself and suffered the punishment for them in His atoning sacrifice. If I do not repent, He will return these same unrepented-of evils upon me, or, what I have not repented of will me mine to suffer and deal with: for example, what I see as His wrath is the same as my own unrepented wrath—He would mete out no more or no less in the event I do not accept His atonement for my wrath.

[CV75]

I can see this.

It is punishment purely to balance the scales of justice that I take issue with in that God has already demonstrated that he is perfectly happy to apply mercy when the option is there. If there is any punishment applied by God, it must involve a teaching component as I don't think God would waste the opportunity and he would have the ability to adapt punishment for that purpose. The scriptures are full of the concept that punishment is for the purpose of humbling the sinner so he is more open to listening to the Lord and that God is not happy about having to use even this type of punishment.

RE: punishment balancing the scales of justice, aside from the teaching opportunity when God exacts it (which is a sign of His mercy), I think punishment (which I see as anything along the gradients of spiritual or temporal death) as a natural consequence of broken law is virtuously synonymous with justice since it is the opposite of blessing, which comes only by mercy, since we are all fallen and blessings can only come because we are given a time for learning and repentance due to the atonement, and due to Christ standing between us and the devil, who would easily obliterate us before we even had a chance otherwise.

[Questing Beast]

...

What do you mean by, "God" can save or punish as needed, according to the explicit condition of each person"?

I am referring to the infinite power of "God". If punishment is required, wouldn't it just be built into the system, as suggested on this thread? Punishment just happens as a consequence; and God can spare a person the consequences of his/her action/inaction according to the foreknowledge God has.

I do not accept that some overarching dogma is at work in the universe. We are made as individuals: egocentric universes, if you will: not overlapping or touching beyond our five empirical senses. Our thoughts, emotions and communion with "God" are all between us as individuals and "God" alone. As far as any evidence goes, we will be this way forever. So why would some universal atonement be required to save us from being lost? "God" can save each individual if that is needed. But it seems to me that as powerful as "God" Is, salvation and damnation are conditions that each person possesses naturally within himself. "God" is constantly there to seek and commune with. And as we are immortal beings, there is enough time for everyone to sort out their "unfinished business" with "God"....

[Questing Beast]

I think there is much more to the Atonement than many of us think. We are all taught the basics of the Atonement, that Jesus Christ came to earth to take our sins upon Himself so that we may obtain eternal life, but that's not all the Atonement is: it allows us to become one with God, and that's a very complex concept I think that we cannot yet fully understand. I too have struggled with the idea that we agreed to come to earth knowing that our Savior would have to be brutally tortured. But this makes me realize that there is obviously much more to the Atonement than we sometimes think. I'm still trying to figure it all out, but I've been looking at it from a new perspective lately that's made me appreciate it even more.

And my reasoning on this makes me move to a somewhat opposite perspective: Rather than the atonement being much more complex than the "basics" we have been taught, I think that our relationship to "God" is so simple that we have over-thought it and junked it up with dogmatic and traditional mumbojumbo until we lose what "God" really Is.

To recap: I do not believe that "God" would be bound by, or establish, a system of "salvation" requiring enormous suffering by One in order to save all of creation. It doesn't feel right to me on so many levels. So, no atonement. But it IS a good story to get across the depth of "God's" love and commitment to us. If there were no other way to save us, "God" would go through what Christ went through, for each one of us, again and again....

[rongo]

This will make some people's heads explode (it always does), but I find Cleon Skousen's explanation of how and especially *why* the atonement works to be the best one. Skousen evokes some real ad hominem aploplexy (can there any good thing come out of Cleon Skousen?), but I am not aware of *any* alternate explanations, from GAs or non-GAs, that treats the full scope of the scriptures and weaves them consistently together into a whole that gets into the how and why.

http://reperiendi.wordpress.com/2007/06/11/the-atonement-by-cleon-skousen/

In short, Skousen explained that our intelligence and matter is eternal, not created (section 93 and other scriptures). The Creation, miracles, etc. happen on natural principles, not by magic ---- those with authority command, and intelligences in matter obey. Man alone, literal spirit children of God, has actual agency and can disobey. This means that, with the veil of forgetfullness, 100% of mankind will be disobedient in some sense and will not be able to live in God's presence because God's honor is His power (D&C 29, Moses 4:1). What drives everything is that it is the honor that all intelligences have for God that demands absolute justice (which answers the question of why God, if He is all-powerful and all-knowing, can't just let us back into His presence if we tried). If God were to do anything the intelligences regarded as unjust, God would cease to be God (Alma 42, several repeated passages). That is what demands justice, and why a capable Savior is needed. Jesus, as the Firstborn and universally recognized as God in the pre-existence, came to earth, lived a sinless life, took our sins upon Himself in a way that only God can, and suffered completely unjustly. This caused the intelligences in the earth to rebel at the injustice of it all (cf. New Testament and Book of Mormon passages at the upheavals at the crucifixion). This "brought about the bowels of mercy," and the intelligences are willing to accept Jesus' purchase of those who follow the just terms and conditions He laid out.

Thought this might help with your question and observations, if you weren't already aware, Maidservant.

[Questing Beast]

...In short, Skousen explained that our intelligence and matter is eternal, not created...

Right there we part ways. All that follows is non sequitur for me. I cannot worship a being that is more powerful than I am, when we are essentially the same "stuff": uncreated, immortal, eternal. If God the Father is just the most intelligent (that we know of) he is no god to be worshiped. I strive to commune with the Cause of Existence in the first place. God the Father, as presented by Joseph Smith, cannot possibly be that Deity....

[Maidservant]

You have to look at the context of this quote. It is talking about God's punishment of living mortals. It does not refer to God's punishment of the wicked in the afterlife, which God either exacts in his anger himself (according to Mormon theology circa 1829-30: See D&C 19:15) or we cause in our own minds (according the King Follett sermon).

True enough. However, God's way of acting would be hopefully be similar under all circumstances, or at least arising from the same gospel, and I think as far as the atonement is concerned, the atonement is a matter for the present and into eternity, of allowing us to receive forgiveness and allowing us to change our condition to sanctification, not a method of securing for ourselves a villa on the other side of the pearly gates in an "afterlife". (I doubt others would go as far as I do, but I have discarded the category of "afterlife" . . . to me, it is all one life.) So what God will do regarding errant children while we are still in mortality is still, I think, pertinent to a punishment/atonement discussion.

[HeatherAnn]

I am referring to the infinite power of "God". If punishment is required, wouldn't it just be built into the system, as suggested on this thread? Punishment just happens as a consequence; and God can spare a person the consequences of his/her action/inaction according to the foreknowledge God has.

I do not accept that some overarching dogma is at work in the universe. We are made as individuals: egocentric universes, if you will: not overlapping or touching beyond our five empirical senses. Our thoughts, emotions and communion with "God" are all between us as individuals and "God" alone. As far as any evidence goes, we will be this way forever. So why would some universal atonement be required to save us from being lost? "God" can save each individual if that is needed. But it seems to me that as powerful as "God" Is, salvation and damnation are conditions that each person possesses naturally within himself. "God" is constantly there to seek and commune with. And as we are immortal beings, there is enough time for everyone to sort out their "unfinished business" with "God"....

Thanks for that explanation. Now I'm wondering about more.... lol

Can ANYTHING/ANYONE save us from the consequences of natural laws already in place?

One of the laws is that if you think happy thoughts, you feel good (emotionally & physically). If you think sad or angry thoughts, you feel bad (emotionally & physically). Can God save us from the consequences of harmful beliefs?

I believe sins = incorrect/harmful thoughts which also cause "dis-ease" mentally & physically, which seems to be how defined in writings about Jesus... like when he said, "For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?" (Matt 9:5)

When I stand by people, without even saying anything, I can sense if they're upset... it could be mystic or simply picking up on nonverbal language.

Also, when some people hug me, I feel much more uplifted, even nurtured, than others, who seem to take, instead of give.

As a mother, I've sometimes prayed for my children & it seemed to have an effect immediately sometimes (even if just calming their emotions).

So, I don't think we're isolated universes beyond our 5 senses... if that's what you meant.

What do you think about the ability to heal ourselves & others?

I especially agree with the bolded part of what you wrote.

Edited October 6, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[Maidservant]

I’m not so sure these verses (2 Nephi 2:10, Alma 42:1) indicate that God Himself is doing the punishing. To me, the verses indicate that the eternal principles (“the ends of the law”, “justice”) determine the punishments and blessings. Of course God is in perfect alignment with all eternal principles, is the embodiment of eternal principles, and so has set up a system that is in full compliance with them.

I can see how, as a Teacher, He may intervene to punish or bless us in our best interests, consistent with our probationary state, where He mercifully delays both judgment and gratification so that we can become like Him. His ability to do this is an outgrowth of the atonement.

As I mentioned in the post above, I think this sort of intervention by God during our probationary state is made possible by the atonement and is designed in the best eternal interests of His children.

As usual, CV75, you have a great way of putting things.

Upon our birth into mortality, we entered a world of forces. We became "subject to death" which covers a lot of things beside our final demise, but also means we have encountered planetary forces, forces in our flesh, the forces of culture, on and on and on. It's a lot to handle! We are children of God, but we aren't spiritual babies (we reached the "stature of adults"). We had a lot of instruction, experience and preparation before we came here, so what we are doing here in mortality as a test or further progression isn't for pansies, so to speak. It's hazardous! We aren't here to show we can be good so that we can get a reward. Almost all human beings have some good in them, and all of us fall short and sin. So no one can prove they are good. But we are here to "wrestle with the angel and get a blessing from him" as Jacob did. The atonement mitigates the damage we sustain while we are here confronting with material forces (loss, damage, death, pain, separation, etc), so that we can leave here with our increased experience, knowledge, charity and godliness yet have our sins cleaned and our tears dried and our wounds healed.

So as sons and daughters of a Heavenly Father, we have come on a quest to become like Him and to become one with each other, all by charity. And we cannot have charity unless we can include "the least of these" in our charity. And we cannot include them unless they exist, which is one reason for a mortality. We are surrounded by the least of these, and we have to find a way to rescue them and bring them to the inn at least (reference to the Good Samaritan).

[Maidservant]

Most Mormons use the Calvinistic "penal substitution" model of the Atonement, but I think that the Arminian (e.g., Methodist) view of the "Governmental" theory of Atonement could also be consistent with Mormonism. In this model, Jesus suffered as a substitution for our sins, but did not literally suffer the precise punishment for each an every person's individual sins. It is more of a satisfaction, rather than a precise payment. Mormon scripture says there was an "infinite atonement" (2 Ne. 9:7)--meaning that it applies to all and to all sin; however, I could be mistaken but I don't think there is any Mormon scripture that says that Jesus underwent infinite suffering. I think the idea of infinite suffering is rather meaningless anyway. If someone kicks you in the gut twice, you don't suffer twice as much as if you were only kicked once. It follows that if they kicked you in the gut an infinite number of times, you wouldn't suffer infinitely. Suffering is not a simple mathematical equation.

Interesting. I hadn't thought of things this way. I will ponder it further.

[Maidservant]

A person who uses his own agency to disobey and become wicked is by law and the demands of justice, condemned. This condemnation not only holds back blessings, it is a type of punishment in that it causes them suffering in restricted ways by the just parts of the law which demands a penalty to be paid or endured. In some degree, be it small or great, we suffer penalties when we disobey. If I remove my sons right to his x-box because of bad grades, that is thus a "punishment".

I do not believe in a God who does not inflict just punishment when and where it is thus justified and demanded by law. We are not a society that has gotten here without a knowledge of there being a punishment in place. We are not animals, we are humans capable of a high degree of manipulation and secret designs on the one hand and on the flip side we can be the most benevolent and righteous beings.

I am reminded of when Korihor came amongst the people and was teaching the people about denying Christ when he knew better. Alma tells him that if he continues to do this that God will smite him and cause him to become dumb (punishment). Korihor tempts God with a "show me a sign", and so what does God do? He smites him and causes him to become dumb. This is just one instance of countless instances where God does issue punishments by his power upon the wicked and disobedient.Let's look at Satan as another example

. When he rebelled in heaven, what did God cause that should come upon hm? He caused him to be cast out of heaven and denied blessings. Deep down did Satan really want this? Well, he did seek that which was unrighteous before the throne of God. God both blesses and punishes. Many times we bring upon our own selves natural consequences but that doesn't mean that the justice of God is stayed. God does punish.

I will continue to think on this.

I definitely agree with you that disobeying a godly law is its own condemnation (including your example of Satan). My meaning has never been an absence of consequences. I love where Alma is counseling his son in chapter 41 and discusses restoration. In these passages, Alma is completely serious with his son about the dire consequences of remaining in his carnal nature, and that he could not enjoy in eternity what he had never prepared for. But even here, there is not an additional, personal retribution or punishment (as I am thinking of it conceptually) given by God. It is simply that you cannot pick the fruit from a tree you did not plant, and if you are planting wickedness you ARE going to get the fruit from that tree.

Korihor is an interesting case. One distinctive element here is that Korihor requested from God, and God obliged, ha ha ha. It's actually rather hilarious. However, this was in response to a specific experience with Korihor and I'm sure God was just glad to finally get this son's attention. Did he punish him before that moment? Is Korihor still in hell as we speak, or do you think that he perhaps has had some other opportunities to learn (if he took them)?

Removing privileges from a child is only one way to parent, and while it may be a well enough way, it doesn't necessarily encompass the best of all the parenting and psychological knowledge there is on parenting. I mean, we may disagree on that, which is fine, but my point is that if either you or I are going to use parenting as an example of God (which we both have made that example), I think we have to be careful to realize that our state of parenting knowledge in our culture and age (even when leavened by the gospel) may not be in its final state, and in fact for myself, I know it isn't. So while I do like to ponder on parenting and how that teaches me on God, I am constanty learning new from here too. I am also NOT impressed with human society's punishment ideas over time (while you seem to find good in them, so that is a difference), I do NOT think that speaks well of society at all, and I think we have gotten as "far" as we have (are we?) in spite of such difficulties, not because of them. HAVING laws is essential. PUNISHING on laws is not necessarily the only or best way (and as I mentioned in another post with someone, I do make a distinction between penalty and punishment). So I don't know, I don't know.

I will just continue to think on it more, thanks for the points you make.

[Maidservant]

Why cannot God do what we do everyday, forgive each other. If it is some other law that required an atonement, that law provides for punishment, death, suffering of the only one not deserving it and calls it "good". I'm having a problem envisioning such a universe as it also goes against all my appreciation of Western justice. Maybe I'm guilty of presentism but I think that many of the premises we use for the atonement are flawed.

I'm sure he does on a personal, emotional level, forgive us. But if you take a look at what I wrote in post #47, we not just here to try to be good, or get his personal approval, we are here to become something, and so he can't really sugar coat the journey for us all the time, because we are here to become like Him . . . and it's like climbing Mount Everest . . . if you climb Mount Everest, do you want the height leveled, the snow removed, and oxygen trucked to the top? Or is the climb worth it exactly because of these challenges?

Of course, mortality is not just an athletic exercise, that would not be a good enough reason to have to risk so much suffering as we do. But maybe it starts us to asking what the atonement really is, and to understand the atonement, we ought to understand the purpose of life.

To me, forgiveness is the cleaning out of the energies of our soul. The Holy Ghost cleanses us and we really can become a new creature, especially in our spirit, free from the effects of our sins, and the sins that others did to us. This can happen every week at Sacrament Meeting. So maybe it's like what some have already mentioned, that we realize that we can receive His forgiveness that he's already offered us, and "go and sin no more".