Mechanisms Of Atonement

[Maidservant]

Maidservant,

Thanks for your positivity.

If we're talking about mechanics... some would explain spiritual help (aka saving grace of Jesus) as our subconscious mind giving us clues of guidance/love. I believe there's more to it than that... that we exist (somehow - in some type of dimension) spiritually - unconditionally.

I do believe in God that permeates ALL... but I also realize that "the kingdom (my experience/interepration) of God is within" me. -Luke 17:21

Spiritual feelings need to work in harmony with intellect/common sense.

I believe we have saviors in spirit & body... those who help us here & there, are acting as saviors, in a way.

All of these influences cannot help but be filtered & interpreted through our minds... so as "carnal" as our minds can be, they are an essential part of the process.

How we interpret affects how we feel & how we are physically (dis-ease or at ease) & how we behave.

Along with the idea that we create God in our image... how we define/interpret spiritual experiences, scriptures etc...

The advesary is also subjective... what is tempting for me may not be tempting for you.

So - our joys or fears... our heaven or hell is self-created. That's why it's essential we take more responsibility for our psychology (study of the soul) which is inseparably part of our spirituality.

You know, a long time ago I came to understand that a belief was not really a mental conviction, but that belief was a whole soul condition (including the body). So to change your belief is to change everything. This is why Jesus Christ asks us to believe in Him. It is not a question of existence (such as whether or not there is a Santa Claus) . . . it is, rather, an invitation to transformation and atonement. When we believe, then we naturally move into a state of repentence, and there forward.

I also agree with you about how we have the privilege of assisting Jesus Christ in his work of atonement by serving others.

[Maidservant]

when we screw up, we're adding to Jesus' excruciating pain.

Right now in my life I am thinking that this is a token for the "excruciating pain" we visit upon each other (all of us God's children who were originally innocent).

However, I am also convinced that Jesus received the revelation of all of our pain while in the Garden of Gethsemane. Not only revelation, but the energy from that in terms of a material, closed universe. I believe that did happen, and that those energies were transformed into saving energies that radiate from the person of Jesus out to create and preserve the universe and each of us (= grace).

(Ever read Dune? And those ladies who could transform poison in their bodies?)

[Maidservant]

I believe we punish ourselves and each other and that the atonement provides the pattern for how we are to overcome this cycle of suffering.

Awesome.

[Maidservant]

It is punishment purely to balance the scales of justice that I take issue with in that God has already demonstrated that he is perfectly happy to apply mercy when the option is there. If there is any punishment applied by God, it must involve a teaching component as I don't think God would waste the opportunity and he would have the ability to adapt punishment for that purpose. The scriptures are full of the concept that punishment is for the purpose of humbling the sinner so he is more open to listening to the Lord and that God is not happy about having to use even this type of punishment.

I agree with this too. I think there is room for aspects of a number of the ideas presented in this thread. I can see that: 1) God adheres to eternal law and principle; 2) that we learn as individuals and collectively line upon line, precept upon precept and God likewise reveals more truth as we are ready and His purposes are fulfilled; 3) that God is a Teacher and Shepherd and responds to the learning requirements of His children according to the agency they exercise, including as-needed punishment, blessing and other interventions in our behalf during mortality; 5) that the laws governing the consequences of our actions are not on “autopilot” 100% of the time (and I do agree that the unrepentant ultimately punish themselves because they reject the source of their deliverance) by virtue of the atonement, allowing God to thus intervene; 6) that His ways are usually expressed in terms of the present, requiring discernment to see which phase (when not all) of our experience is being addressed in a passage scripture; 7) that emotion is a component of His experience.

RE: punishment balancing the scales of justice, aside from the teaching opportunity when God exacts it (which is a sign of His mercy), I think punishment (which I see as anything along the gradients of spiritual or temporal death) as a natural consequence of broken law is virtuously synonymous with justice since it is the opposite of blessing, which comes only by mercy, since we are all fallen and blessings can only come because we are given a time for learning and repentance due to the atonement, and due to Christ standing between us and the devil, who would easily obliterate us before we even had a chance otherwise.

[Maidservant]

I am referring to the infinite power of "God". If punishment is required, wouldn't it just be built into the system, as suggested on this thread? Punishment just happens as a consequence; and God can spare a person the consequences of his/her action/inaction according to the foreknowledge God has.

I do not accept that some overarching dogma is at work in the universe. We are made as individuals: egocentric universes, if you will: not overlapping or touching beyond our five empirical senses. Our thoughts, emotions and communion with "God" are all between us as individuals and "God" alone. As far as any evidence goes, we will be this way forever. So why would some universal atonement be required to save us from being lost? "God" can save each individual if that is needed. But it seems to me that as powerful as "God" Is, salvation and damnation are conditions that each person possesses naturally within himself. "God" is constantly there to seek and commune with. And as we are immortal beings, there is enough time for everyone to sort out their "unfinished business" with "God"....

You make some interesting points, and I will think on them more.

One of the things I have been challenging God with this year is that I don't understand why I need to come to this earth to show just how much I can mess up (according to how I have been understanding the gospel and the plan of salvation before now, anyway). Can't God just say, Yep, she can't do it . . . and I concede the point (I've been trying to be "righteous" my whole life and I am soo not). I mean, do I really need another 40 years of life just to mess up for 40 more years? If God is the one that is good in my life, I already know that, so are the next 40 years just a show of how good God is and I am not?

So these kinds of thinking DO cause me to keep wondering what the plan of salvation and the atonement really are, and are leading me to increase my understanding.

But oddly enough, I know that I know God. So that same journey that has taken me to bite the dust flat on my face, has also revealed God and revealed other human beings to me (and I'm finding God = human beings more than I ever once thought I would).

So I just keep returning to thoughts such as: the purpose mortality IS the process of becoming one with God and this takes place in our humiliations and crucifixions as much as in our resurrections.

[Maidservant]

This will make some people's heads explode (it always does), but I find Cleon Skousen's explanation of how and especially *why* the atonement works to be the best one. Skousen evokes some real ad hominem aploplexy (can there any good thing come out of Cleon Skousen?), but I am not aware of *any* alternate explanations, from GAs or non-GAs, that treats the full scope of the scriptures and weaves them consistently together into a whole that gets into the how and why.

http://reperiendi.wo...-cleon-skousen/

In short, Skousen explained that our intelligence and matter is eternal, not created (section 93 and other scriptures). The Creation, miracles, etc. happen on natural principles, not by magic ---- those with authority command, and intelligences in matter obey. Man alone, literal spirit children of God, has actual agency and can disobey. This means that, with the veil of forgetfullness, 100% of mankind will be disobedient in some sense and will not be able to live in God's presence because God's honor is His power (D&C 29, Moses 4:1). What drives everything is that it is the honor that all intelligences have for God that demands absolute justice (which answers the question of why God, if He is all-powerful and all-knowing, can't just let us back into His presence if we tried). If God were to do anything the intelligences regarded as unjust, God would cease to be God (Alma 42, several repeated passages). That is what demands justice, and why a capable Savior is needed. Jesus, as the Firstborn and universally recognized as God in the pre-existence, came to earth, lived a sinless life, took our sins upon Himself in a way that only God can, and suffered completely unjustly. This caused the intelligences in the earth to rebel at the injustice of it all (cf. New Testament and Book of Mormon passages at the upheavals at the crucifixion). This "brought about the bowels of mercy," and the intelligences are willing to accept Jesus' purchase of those who follow the just terms and conditions He laid out.

Thought this might help with your question and observations, if you weren't already aware, Maidservant.

Thanks, rongo. Not sure if it is the exact same talk or info as in your link, but when I was a young woman and young adult I listened to a cassette tape of Cleon Skousen speaking on the atonement close to 25 times at least (over time). Wow! You reminded me of that! That was a very pivotal personal revelation to me. Come to think of it, I think it is due to Bro. Skousen's testimony and insights, that I keep a commitment to an atonement that has material effects.

(Also: We forget that our cells are intelligences too and want to be saved. Our consciousness is the "head" of our cells and all the intelligence our body has, and we need to honor that stewardship and not cause our body to suffer because of the selfishnesses of the head.)

Reading through the link . . . I love his thinking, but can't agree with everything. But it's great stuff to ponder.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Maidservant

[David T]

This will make some people's heads explode (it always does), but I find Cleon Skousen's explanation of how and especially *why* the atonement works to be the best one. Skousen evokes some real ad hominem aploplexy (can there any good thing come out of Cleon Skousen?), but I am not aware of *any* alternate explanations, from GAs or non-GAs, that treats the full scope of the scriptures and weaves them consistently together into a whole that gets into the how and why.

http://reperiendi.wo...-cleon-skousen/

I personally hate this 'explanation'.

Jesus had to suffer and die because all our eternal brothers and sisters were clamoring with a desire for blood and suffering in order for their sense of 'fairness' to be fulfilled? And what is attractive about this worldview?

Some reposts of mine from the other thread:

If we take the modern revelation that the spirits of all men are co-eternal with God, and that taking upon mortality does not mark the beginning of our existence or eternal power/nature, and that Christ was a key revelation of a pre-eternal God temporarily taking mortality upon him as both a) Educational and b) Merciful, and we further look at Joseph's teachings on forming an eternal family by formal covenant of love and commitment, I don't see a need to 'fit in' the idea that the Atonement was a barbaric sacrifice demanded by some Eternal Force that demanded that someone had to suffer.

Ostler suggests that the actual and real pain we suffer as a result of our own immoral actions is real, and physical, and remains with us unless we release it. That this pain causes mindsets of self-justification and shame that keeps us from being willing to walk into God's presence - that nobody is keeping us from walking back to God but ourselves. He suggests that Christ invites us to release that pain, and let it 'go to him' to suffer, and that this willingness to suffer to express how much he already loves and forgives us is powerful enough to allow us to do so, and to actually release our former pain and suffering, and allow us to stop walking away, and actually see ourselves walking towards God, and thus begin on that journey.

In this scenario, it wasn't a debt that was demanded by anyone but ourselves, and he let us know, there really wasn't any debt imposed, and invited us to remove the consequences of our own self-imposed debts onto him. This frees our souls, hearts, and minds, and creates love within ourselves.

Whether or not it expressed metaphysical truth, this image paints a far more useful and powerful picture of the Atonement for me than any 'He settled the debt of suffering imposed by God/The Universe/etc' imagery.

In fact, I think the best analogy of this is actually the story of Jean Valjean in Les Miserables. Valjean, imprisoned for stealing bread to save his family, is then caught in the cogs of the law of condemnation, and after decades of being treated as such, ends up identifying himself as a criminal for life. When he is set at parole, a Bishop mercifully invites him into his house to sleep when everyone else rejected him because of his Criminal status. Valjean then steals the Bishops few remaining personal items that hadn't already been donated to charity - silver, leaving only a set of candlesticks behind.

Valjean is apprehended by the law, and is about to be tossed into Prison for the rest of his life, when the Bishop proclaims that he has given Valjean the silver - and the candlesticks as well, which he must have forgotten. The Bishop gives all that is personal and unique to him to Valjean. Valjean is told to take this silver, and make a new life for himself.

Immediately afterwards, through instinct, Valjean steals a coin from a young child. But immediately is horrified by the act. Recognizing the act of love and mercy by the Bishop had already changed his heart, although his habits hadn't realized it yet until they went to act. The recognition of love and mercy caused the conversion - repentance followed as an act of love and changed nature.

Forgiveness came first. Repentance followed. Valjean changed his name, and was in a very real sense born again. Valjean went on to devote his life to beneficient and compassionate service.

This, to me, is the best illustration of the Atonement ever written.

And yet, in the story, there is still Inspector Javert, the personification of the Law, who brands everyone who ever committed a crime as a Criminal for life, unable to do good, or be good. At the end of his life when he realized he was wrong, and that Valjean actually did become a new person, his paradigm is shattered, and instead of being willing to change, he kills himself - unwilling to live in a world where a Sinner can become a Saint.

[mercyngrace]

Nack,

I agree you except that I do believe our salvation is more interdependent.

And I don't remember the "clamoring for blood" part of Skousen's theory, I remember it simply as other intelligences being offended by the injustice of someone unclean entering God's presence or inheriting God's 'reward', etc. I believe that we are those intelligences who clamor for justice to be served.

Much like the self-righteous Jews who would have stoned the adultress or the individual who refuses to forgive his neighbor, whenever we refuse to allow the atonement to work for ourselves or others, we are effectively saying "That's not fair!"

Enter Christ. His perfection and His charity driven willingness to suffer an infinite and eternal injustice on our behalf just to save us causes us to look inward at our own needs. In His presence we see that we are all likewise beggars - that we have all offended and needed healing from the Great Physician as well as the soothing balm of forgiveness from those we've hurt or offended. And so we lay down our stones,embrace our offenders and follow Christ's example - willingly bearing whatever offense we endured because we care more about the healing of our brother than about satisfying our own senses of fairness.

Until we all care more about saving each other than we do about what's "fair", until we all learn that real healing comes from dropping our stones rather than casting them, we are actually living up to the role of the intelligences Sousen described.

[Questing Beast]

Thanks for that explanation. Now I'm wondering about more.... lol

Can ANYTHING/ANYONE save us from the consequences of natural laws already in place?

"God" can. The "laws" are created by "God". Nothing Exists outside of "God".

One of the laws is that if you think happy thoughts, you feel good (emotionally & physically). If you think sad or angry thoughts, you feel bad (emotionally & physically). Can God save us from the consequences of harmful beliefs?

Yes, of course "God" can prevent consequences from harmful beliefs. Would "God" do so? That is the question that needs to be explored. And if not, why not? The short answer is, saving from consequences would prevent learning what Joy is not.

...

When I stand by people, without even saying anything, I can sense if they're upset... it could be mystic or simply picking up on nonverbal language.

Also, when some people hug me, I feel much more uplifted, even nurtured, than others, who seem to take, instead of give.

As a mother, I've sometimes prayed for my children & it seemed to have an effect immediately sometimes (even if just calming their emotions).

So, I don't think we're isolated universes beyond our 5 senses... if that's what you meant.

What do you think about the ability to heal ourselves & others?

...

Our connection to "God" can result in our prayers being answered instantaneously. The person we pray for is connected to "God" too; and via that Source of our Existence, we are connected. But our thoughts and emotions remain sovereign. I do not believe in the assertions that some people can know others thoughts and emotions as their own. I've seen no evidence that "God" ever turns anyone into a mind reader or empath. Some people are highly sensitive to the emotions of others. Nevertheless, they remain apart metaphysically....

[Questing Beast]

You make some interesting points, and I will think on them more.

One of the things I have been challenging God with this year is that I don't understand why I need to come to this earth to show just how much I can mess up (according to how I have been understanding the gospel and the plan of salvation before now, anyway). Can't God just say, Yep, she can't do it . . . and I concede the point (I've been trying to be "righteous" my whole life and I am soo not). I mean, do I really need another 40 years of life just to mess up for 40 more years? If God is the one that is good in my life, I already know that, so are the next 40 years just a show of how good God is and I am not?

So these kinds of thinking DO cause me to keep wondering what the plan of salvation and the atonement really are, and are leading me to increase my understanding.

But oddly enough, I know that I know God. So that same journey that has taken me to bite the dust flat on my face, has also revealed God and revealed other human beings to me (and I'm finding God = human beings more than I ever once thought I would).

So I just keep returning to thoughts such as: the purpose mortality IS the process of becoming one with God and this takes place in our humiliations and crucifixions as much as in our resurrections.

This seems to agree with my belief that "God" manifests as us; and even as all of creation. The opposite is Void; being alone in the Darkness with Nothing. Since Existence includes all of this fecund life instead of Void, it is inarguable that "God" at least prefers both states of Existence. It is rather pointless to argue that the world is wrong or badly conceived! It is what it is. What other kind of world would you have "God" come up with? As Lehi said, opposition is what defines everything; without knowledge of opposition in all things, nothing would even be aware of Existence. Joy is only perceived and valued, because misery defines it. But I also believe that misery does not have to be constantly present: just the mere memory of it ought to serve the purpose of lending definition and awareness to Joy. So your beef with the lengthy process of mortality seems justified to me as well.

I feel, in my mind, as old as the hills. I feel like one of Tolkien's Elves, growing weary of life; and one day (soon, it feels this morning), I shall fade and awaken "in the West" where there is no death or decaying....

[Maidservant]

I personally hate this 'explanation'.

Jesus had to suffer and die because all our eternal brothers and sisters were clamoring with a desire for blood and suffering in order for their sense of 'fairness' to be fulfilled? And what is attractive about this worldview?

It didn't completely resonate with me either for same or similar reasons. But I appreciate it as an exploration Bro. Skousen did to directly engage the question of mechanisms.

Ostler suggests that the actual and real pain we suffer as a result of our own immoral actions is real, and physical, and remains with us unless we release it. That this pain causes mindsets of self-justification and shame that keeps us from being willing to walk into God's presence - that nobody is keeping us from walking back to God but ourselves. He suggests that Christ invites us to release that pain, and let it 'go to him' to suffer, and that this willingness to suffer to express how much he already loves and forgives us is powerful enough to allow us to do so, and to actually release our former pain and suffering, and allow us to stop walking away, and actually see ourselves walking towards God, and thus begin on that journey.

I agree, or seem to be coming more and more to agree, that our hells are for the most part self-imposed (although we can be oppressed by others, but even then God can be with us a la Joseph of Egypt). I am also put in mind of the parable in Matthew ch 20 about the pennies given for hire for everyone whenever they began the work. However, the way you've stated it still leaves the question unanswered about why we had to do this in the first place--come here to suffer, come here to do this to ourselves and to others. Even if God wouldn't do a "barbaric sacrifice" of Jesus, why did he do this same thing, or why did we agree to (a la Isaac), this "barbaric sacrifice" called mortality to us, all of his sons and daughters? Obviously, by some means either in Jesus and/or in ourselves, we can become free again; but why did we have to enter hell (=mortality) in the first place? How and why did we get ourselves into this mess (or God sending us), and exactly what mess is it, that would require an atonement or at the very least an atonement narrative? If Jesus did not give a literal sacrifice, then what exactly did he do that atones for us on an essential level? You mention "education" and "mercy" but I don't see these mechanisms as arising to the level of the necessity of an atonement. We are capable of an educational and merciful experience with God without atonement or Lamb of God ideas (such as with Allah, who is merciful and immediately and ever-forgiving to those who repent and turn to him). I think I mentioned before that the physical aspects of the torture of Jesus don't constitute his sacrifice since a lot of human beings have suffered more physically. But are you saying that there was no experience in the Garden of Gethsemane where the sins of all beings at least on this earth were laid upon him? I think that this happened, at least in my state of thinking. So I can see what you are saying, but it leaves so much unknown still for me, at least where I'm at now with it.

In this scenario, it wasn't a debt that was demanded by anyone but ourselves, and he let us know, there really wasn't any debt imposed, and invited us to remove the consequences of our own self-imposed debts onto him. This frees our souls, hearts, and minds, and creates love within ourselves.

Whether or not it expressed metaphysical truth, this image paints a far more useful and powerful picture of the Atonement for me than any 'He settled the debt of suffering imposed by God/The Universe/etc' imagery.

This may be partly because you are thinking of a legal debt; and when you talk on Law, you hear legal law. I never thought that way. I always imagined it (rightly or wrongly) in terms of a material conservation of energy in the universe. In a closed system (as I take the universe to be), if you do one thing with energy, the energy must come from somewhere; there are laws of MATTER not of SOCIETY. If you want the sun to shine, you must require that energy from the processes of elements. If you light a fire on a piece of wood, the wood dies and the energy is released in heat and light and the ash remainders. Where you put the idea "let it go to him" in quotes, I take the quotes off, as I understand that we have actual energy that must be released, transformed, AND other energy (spirit, etc) that needs to enter into us. I agree that some of the history of looking upon the atonement and our understanding of it (such as the need to torture a God) is problematic, very, but for myself I don't think it doesn't mean that something didn't happen. Maybe I'm not understanding you, but the way you seem to be describing it, is that we don't need Jesus at all. What, in your view, did Jesus do for us that was necessary and only he could do? When you say that he educates and is merciful, then I think I hear you saying that "Jesus was the BEST encourager of us EVER!" but I don't hear you saying that he is our Savior. Which--is fine, if that is what you are learning. I have been learning some things on the matter too which are very different than what I always believed. But I just have all these questions when I read your words, I hope you don't mind them.

For me, to be atoned or saved, our soul condition (which is material) must be materially changed (to, say, sanctification) by a material atonement that arises from an actual material event that Jesus of Nazereth underwent (not the flogging and crucifixion).

I also think on the ordinance of the Sacrament. In it, we have represented the shrouded sacrifice (=Jesus), but the process of the atonement is not complete until we partake of that. To me, it is representative of a very literal, material process. There is a LOT to be seen in the Sacrament ordinance, it's been blowing my mind lately actually. But there is at least that shown (as I am understanding it).

Edited October 6, 2011 by Maidservant

[Maidservant]

In His presence we see that we are all likewise beggars - that we have all offended and needed healing from the Great Physician as well as the soothing balm of forgiveness from those we've hurt or offended. And so we lay down our stones,embrace our offenders and follow Christ's example - willingly bearing whatever offense we endured because we care more about the healing of our brother than about satisfying our own senses of fairness.

Until we all care more about saving each other than we do about what's "fair", until we all learn that real healing comes from dropping our stones rather than casting them, we are actually living up to the role of the intelligences Sousen described.

Beautiful.

This seems to agree with my belief that "God" manifests as us; and even as all of creation.

While I wouldn't use the same language or paradigm, I think when it comes down to it, I'm pretty close to you on this. (D & C 93:3 and many other references: "I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.")

It is rather pointless to argue that the world is wrong or badly conceived! It is what it is. What other kind of world would you have "God" come up with?

You are perfectly right on this (according to me ).

As Lehi said, opposition is what defines everything; without knowledge of opposition in all things, nothing would even be aware of Existence. Joy is only perceived and valued, because misery defines it. But I also believe that misery does not have to be constantly present: just the mere memory of it ought to serve the purpose of lending definition and awareness to Joy. So your beef with the lengthy process of mortality seems justified to me as well.

Well, I do wonder on the the process (inc. length) of mortality, but I wouldn't say that I haven't gotten any answers on why . . . I am learning and seeing some things. But it is a question to ask, and I wouldn't be seeing more things if I hadn't asked (i.e gotten mad about it, he he).

I do think that we are here to learn to free ourselves from being "subject" and to learn to "subject all things" to ourselves (not in an oppressive way, but in a way of becoming strong to deal with the forces of the universe and with ourselves and others as humans/gods). Even Lehi in 2 Ne Ch 2 does not discuss the object of mortality as a fight between good and evil (per se), but as a journey to freedom (not social freedom, but gospel and Being freedom). This paradigm stares us in the face in verse 27, but sometimes we gloss that. "Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient to man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil."

I feel, in my mind, as old as the hills. I feel like one of Tolkien's Elves, growing weary of life; and one day (soon, it feels this morning), I shall fade and awaken "in the West" where there is no death or decaying....

:) Genesis 47:7-9 "And Joseph brought in Jacob his father, and set him before Pharaoh: and Jacob blessed Pharaoh. And Pharaoh said unto Jacob, How old art thou? And Jacob said unto Pharaoh, "The days of the years of my pilgrimage are an hundred and thirty years."

. . . pilgrimage . . .

[wenglund]

No time now to read all the (I'm sure) Awesome comments but I wanted to add that I believe God's "punishment" to be figurative in that it's the natural consequence of violating eternal laws. In the same way that blessings are tied irrevocably to certain laws, the withholding of those blessings, and all that such implies, is tied to law breaking.

In other words, God's law (or the laws of Godhood) define the consequences of our choices but we are the ones who actually punish ourselves and each other:

I agree that blessings and punishment are a "natural" consequence of obedience or disobedience to spiritual laws: for, "There is a ^alaw, irrevocably decreed in ^bheaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all ^cblessings are predicated—And when we obtain any ^ablessing from God, it is by ^bobedience to that law upon which it is predicated." (D&C 130:20-21)

By "natural" I mean there may be material changes that occur in our souls based on obedience or disobedience to spiritual laws. When we obey, our souls increase in the spirit of light and truth and love, with its accompanying feelings of joy and peace and healing; whereas when we disobey, our souls decrease in spirit light and increase in spirit darkness, with its accompanying feeling of sorrow and agitation and sickness.

To me, herein is the nature of our conscience and the workings of the light of Christ. When we disobey, our relatively pure spirits within us become agitated and sickened by the consequential presence of spirit darkness, and so we feel sorrow and guilt. Whereas, when we obey, particularly when we obey the law of repentance, the agitating spirit darkness is somewhat dispelled and we are infused with the healing presence of light and or returned to a state of relative spirit purity and health.

Similarly, there is the workings of the Holy Spirit. For those of us who have received the Gift of the Holy Ghost, its presence in our lives is somewhat conditioned on our obedience or disobedience. When we are obedient, we are entitled to the sweet companionship of the Holy Spirit, and when we are disobedient, sweet the Spirit is withdrawn.

Since the punishments consist of the withdrawal of the light of Christ and/or the withdrawal of God's Holy Spirit and the infusion of spirit darkness, and since each are functions of laws decreed in heaven and conditions of the Gift, then punishments may reasonably be said to given by God.

Understanding these "natural" consequences or material change helps set the foundation for better understanding the atonement. When we sin, and thus invite within us the spirit of darkness, we, of ourselves, and because of our then impure nature, lack the capacity to remove the darkness by way of our obedience alone. We cannot heal ourselves. It is only through the atonement of Christ, conditioned on our repentance and obedience, that the removal of darkness and return to spirit purity is made possible. Only the obedience of he who was sinless is able to satisfy the conditions of justice needed to remove darkness from us, and thus make mercy possible, thereby enabling us to become pure if we repent and return to obedience and spiritual health. Only the sinless Christ could "pay the price" demanded by justice for the removal of darkness, and has the power to heal.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited October 6, 2011 by wenglund

[Maidservant]

I agree that blessings and punishment are a "natural" consequence of obedience or disobedience to spiritual laws: for, "There is a ^alaw, irrevocably decreed in ^bheaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all ^cblessings are predicated—And when we obtain any ^ablessing from God, it is by ^bobedience to that law upon which it is predicated." (D&C 130:20-21)

By "natural" I mean there may be material changes that occurs in our souls based on obedience or disobedience to spiritual laws. When we obey, our souls increase in the spirit of light and truth and love, with its accompanying feelings of joy and peace and healing; whereas when we disobey, our souls decreasing in spirit light and increase in spirit darkness, with its accompanying feeling of sorrow and agitation and sickness.

To me, herein is the nature of our conscience and the workings of the light of Christ. When we disobey, our relatively pure spirits within us become agitated and sickened by the presence of spirit darkness, and so we feel sorrow and guilt. Whereas, when we obey, particularly when we obey the law of repentance, the agitating spirit darkness is somewhat dispelled and we are infused with the healing presence of light and or returned to a state of relative spirit purity and health.

Similarly, there is the workings of the Holy Spirit. For those of us who have received the Gift of the Holy Ghost, its presence in our lives is somewhat conditioned on our obedience or disobedience. When we are obedient, we are entitled to the sweet companionship of the Holy Spirit, and when we are disobedient, sweet the Spirit is withdrawn.

Since the punishments consist of the withdrawal of the light of Christ and/or the withdrawal of God's Holy Spirit and the infusion of spirit darkness, and since each are functions of laws decreed in heaven and conditions of the Gift, then punishments may reasonably be said to given by God.

Understanding these "natural" consequences or material change helps set the foundation for better understanding the atonement. When we sin, and thus invite within us the spirit of darkness, we, of ourselves, and because of our then impure nature, lack the capacity to remove the darkness by way of our obedience alone. We cannot heal ourselves. It is only through the atonement of Christ, conditioned on our repentance and obedience, that the removal of darkness and return to spirit purity is made possible. Only the obedience of he who was sinless is able to satisfy the conditions of justice needed to remove darkness from us, and thus make mercy possible, thereby enabling us to become pure if we repent and return to obedience and spiritual health. Only the sinless Christ could "pay the price" demanded by justice for the removal of darkness, and has the power to heal.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I like this explanation. Yes, I think that ideas such as light and spirit are an integral part of understanding the mechanisms of the atonement, punishment or consequence, and the purpose of what we are doing here on earth in the first place.

[wenglund]

I like this explanation. Yes, I think that ideas such as light and spirit are an integral part of understanding the mechanisms of the atonement, punishment or consequence, and the purpose of what we are doing here on earth in the first place.

I believe that, in a way and in terms of material changes, our physical bodies are a type for our spirit bodies. Our obedience or disobedience to the laws of physical health, like with spiritual obedience or disobedience, may have a demonstrable material effect on our physical bodies. When we eat the right foods, get sufficient exercise, and make wise behavioral and educational choices, our physical bodies and minds tend to be healthy, invigorated, enlightened and enriched (run and not be weary, walk and not faint, etc.); whereas, when we eat "bad" foods, or ingest harmful substances, and are lazy and indulgent, we tend to get physically sick and unhealthy.

I believe there is also a reciprocal affect between the physical and the spiritual bodies, as well as with the environment we choose to live and create around us.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

So while I do like to ponder on parenting and how that teaches me on God, I am constanty learning new from here too. I am also NOT impressed with human society's punishment ideas over time (while you seem to find good in them, so that is a difference), I do NOT think that speaks well of society at all, and I think we have gotten as "far" as we have (are we?) in spite of such difficulties, not because of them. HAVING laws is essential. PUNISHING on laws is not necessarily the only or best way (and as I mentioned in another post with someone, I do make a distinction between penalty and punishment). So I don't know, I don't know.

I will just continue to think on it more, thanks for the points you make.

So, if we believe God to be perfect, how do you feel when God caused fire and brimstone to rain down on Sodom and Gomorrah-

24 Then the LORD rained upon ^aSodom and upon ^bGomorrah ^cbrimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

(Old Testament | Genesis 19:24)It seems to me that God punishes the wicked by His actual causation to inflict pain upon them. Look also in BoM times-

3 Behold, that great city Zarahemla have I ^aburned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof.

4 And behold, that great city Moroni have I caused to be ^asunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned.

5 And behold, that great city ^aMoronihah have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them.

6 And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth;

7 Yea, and the city of Onihah and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Mocum and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of ^aJerusalem and the inhabitants thereof; and ^bwaters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the ^cblood of the prophets and the saints shall ^dnot come up any more unto me against them.

8 And behold, the city of Gadiandi, and the city of Gadiomnah, and the city of Jacob, and the city of Gimgimno, all these have I caused to be sunk, and made ^ahills and valleys in the places thereof; and the inhabitants thereof have I ^bburied up in the depths of the earth, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up any more unto me against them.

9 And behold, that great city Jacobugath, which was inhabited by the people of king Jacob, have I caused to be burned with fire because of their sins and their ^awickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth, because of their ^bsecret murders and combinations; for it was they that did ^cdestroy the peace of my people and the government of the land; therefore I did cause them to be burned, to ^ddestroy them from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up unto me any more against them.

10 And behold, the city of Laman, and the city of Josh, and the city of Gad, and the city of Kishkumen, have I caused to be burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof, because of their wickedness in casting out the prophets, and stoning those whom I did send to declare unto them concerning their wickedness and their abominations.

11 And because they did cast them all out, that there were none righteous among them, I did send down ^afire and destroy them, that their wickedness and abominations might be hid from before my ^bface, that the blood of the prophets and the saints whom I sent among them might not cry unto me ^cfrom the ground against them.

12 And ^amany great destructions have I caused to come upon this land, and upon this people, because of their wickedness and their abominations.

(Book of Mormon |

3 Nephi 9:3 - 12)

I would disagree about your ideas of society being unjust with administering just punishment. Here read-

6 We believe that every man should be ^ahonored in his station, rulers and magistrates as such, being placed for the protection of the innocent and the punishment of the guilty; and that to the ^blaws all men show ^crespect and deference, as without them peace and harmony would be supplanted by anarchy and terror; human laws being instituted for the express purpose of regulating our interests as individuals and nations, between man and man; and divine laws given of heaven, prescribing rules on spiritual concerns, for faith and worship, both to be answered by man to his Maker.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 134:6)

Edited October 6, 2011 by Rob Osborn

[David T]

So, if we believe God to be perfect, how do you feel when God caused fire and brimstone to rain down on Sodom and Gomorrah-

I think many of the events - natural or mandated - that have been attributed to God were done so in hindsight, or after the fact, in accordance with their own worldview, or even religious/political justification at play.

On an associated note, I do not believe God himself willed, desired, and ordered Israelites to commit genocide, either.

[wenglund]

I think many of the events - natural or mandated - that have been attributed to God were done so in hindsight, or after the fact, in accordance with their own worldview, or even religious/political justification at play.

On an associated note, I do not believe God himself willed, desired, and ordered Israelites to commit genocide, either.

I can see how certain naturalistic occurrences may, after the fact, have been mistakenly or conveniently viewed as punishments from God. Such occurred in Jobs time, and goes on even today, where some religious leaders have suggested that certain hurricanes or tsunamis and even diseases like the aids epidemic have occurred because of wickedness.

Does this mean that God doesn't meet out punishment? I don't think so. I believe that because of disobedience, God has, in some instances, struck people dumb and dead, just as in other instances he has blessed the dumb to speak and the dead to rise. His miraculous powers can work both ways.

Like Maidservant, I believe that God as a parent is more blessing-oriented in his motivations, However, I also believe his love compels him in some instances to meet out punishment when it is in his children's best interest. As I see it, his children have different learning styles and learning needs at different times in their lives, and at certain stages of development, some children may not learn so well through positive motivation, and may require God to administer what we in modern times have come to call tough love (which is just another name for punishment). I see no moral or philosophical dilemma in such instances, but rather I would think otherwise were there no divine punishment. Children, even as adults, will at times find comfort and a sense of caring and love from their parents through structure and clear lines being drawn and a strong commitment by the parents to those lines. I believe this principle applies to us collectively as well as individually. What may have been needed during Moses' day in terms of strictness of laws and exacting of punishments, may not be as necessary under presumably more highly developed conditions of modern days.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited October 6, 2011 by wenglund

[Rob Osborn]

I think many of the events - natural or mandated - that have been attributed to God were done so in hindsight, or after the fact, in accordance with their own worldview, or even religious/political justification at play.

On an associated note, I do not believe God himself willed, desired, and ordered Israelites to commit genocide, either.

So what in this case? Do you think God did or did not rain fire and brimstone down on Sodom and Gamorrah?

[Maidservant]

So, if we believe God to be perfect, how do you feel when God caused fire and brimstone to rain down on Sodom and Gomorrah-

24 Then the LORD rained upon ^aSodom and upon ^bGomorrah ^cbrimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

(Old Testament | Genesis 19:24)It seems to me that God punishes the wicked by His actual causation to inflict pain upon them. Look also in BoM times-

3 Behold, that great city Zarahemla have I ^aburned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof.

4 And behold, that great city Moroni have I caused to be ^asunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned.

5 And behold, that great city ^aMoronihah have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them.

6 And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth;

7 Yea, and the city of Onihah and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Mocum and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of ^aJerusalem and the inhabitants thereof; and ^bwaters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the ^cblood of the prophets and the saints shall ^dnot come up any more unto me against them.

8 And behold, the city of Gadiandi, and the city of Gadiomnah, and the city of Jacob, and the city of Gimgimno, all these have I caused to be sunk, and made ^ahills and valleys in the places thereof; and the inhabitants thereof have I ^bburied up in the depths of the earth, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up any more unto me against them.

9 And behold, that great city Jacobugath, which was inhabited by the people of king Jacob, have I caused to be burned with fire because of their sins and their ^awickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth, because of their ^bsecret murders and combinations; for it was they that did ^cdestroy the peace of my people and the government of the land; therefore I did cause them to be burned, to ^ddestroy them from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up unto me any more against them.

10 And behold, the city of Laman, and the city of Josh, and the city of Gad, and the city of Kishkumen, have I caused to be burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof, because of their wickedness in casting out the prophets, and stoning those whom I did send to declare unto them concerning their wickedness and their abominations.

11 And because they did cast them all out, that there were none righteous among them, I did send down ^afire and destroy them, that their wickedness and abominations might be hid from before my ^bface, that the blood of the prophets and the saints whom I sent among them might not cry unto me ^cfrom the ground against them.

12 And ^amany great destructions have I caused to come upon this land, and upon this people, because of their wickedness and their abominations.

(Book of Mormon |

3 Nephi 9:3 - 12)

I would disagree about your ideas of society being unjust with administering just punishment. Here read-

6 We believe that every man should be ^ahonored in his station, rulers and magistrates as such, being placed for the protection of the innocent and the punishment of the guilty; and that to the ^blaws all men show ^crespect and deference, as without them peace and harmony would be supplanted by anarchy and terror; human laws being instituted for the express purpose of regulating our interests as individuals and nations, between man and man; and divine laws given of heaven, prescribing rules on spiritual concerns, for faith and worship, both to be answered by man to his Maker.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 134:6)

Do the passages on Sodom and Gomorrah use the word punishment? The Book of Mormon passages, I can see do not. So why do you call these punishments? They fall under the category of "stopping" and "breaking", which I already acknowledge as essential to do. In these two instances, God is destroying the systems that exist, so that the land, the people, the society can start anew. Not to mention, in at least the Book of Mormon situation, many people were killed, injured and displaced by these natural disasters, who could not have been said to be wicked, individually speaking (small children for one thing, which would even have been in Sodom). The people are tried, humbled, destroyed by these acts of God and/or nature . . . but not punished. These are consequences, and destructions, but not punishments (in my understanding). Not to mention that these destructions are earthly, but it does not mean that the individual people involved are barred from repentence and progression (now from the spirit world), if they become willing. In fact, these people created their hell in their wicked societies and visited that hell on innocents (including their own children), and what the destruction does is like God saying, "That's enough hell. Let's start over and see if we can do heaven this time." (Which I think in the Book of Mormon instance they did). So God is actually stopping hell and punishment as the people had created those things for themselves and their neighbors.

Maybe it's a bit of semantics, but these words are so slippery sometimes, and I think it's worth making some distinctions. Maybe you would not make the distinctions I do, and I for sure wouldn't insist I am necessarily correct. Also I am not going to say that God never punishes. But God doesn't punish as a routine part of the plan, and many of the things we have in ages past taken as being punished by God we are starting learn, just isn't so, that they can be understood other ways more beneficial to light and progression. (Or so I am thinking.)

I once knew a young lady who told me the story of how she once was addicted to crack. Her parents finally learned of this and also she was older than 18, but she did come to them at one point and wanted help. The parents did feel angry and betrayed, of course. They told her she could move back in and they would help, but that they were going to be making some very strict rules specifically for her. For example, she actually had to start out sleeping on the floor in their bedroom, and she always had one of her parents with her at all times wherever she went. She had these restrictions for a while until she made quite a bit of progress on her recovery. Both she and her parents attended AA meetings (also a rule) and learned all they could and did all the steps. So they created some very strict rules for her that didn't feel good maybe (but in another sense were a relief), but these weren't punishments. They didn't take their daughter out back behind the woodshed and whip her with a whip due to her sin. Nor did they bar her from the family (on condition that she follow the strict rules). Had she decided not to do their rules or take their help, I have no doubt they would have perhaps have her stay away (maybe) especially if there were young children around, etc, but I'm sure they would have kept reaching out from time to time to let her know they loved her.

There was a time in my life many years ago when I had my temple recommend taken away from me. This was extremely unpleasant on many levels for myself, not least being weighed down by God's disappointment in me, and disappointment in myself, but was it a punishment? I would say, no. It was an opportunity to concentrate on some basics, and to be released (for the moment) from the requirements of my further covenants, and at no time did the Savior stop from laboring with me in love, both on a personal and direct level in my life, as well as through his priesthood representatives on earth (my bishop). I was miserable in these years, but I was never punished, rather I was still led and blessed.

There are of course some truly wicked human beings in this world who deliberately work to oppress other human beings. There are also some darkened and wicked people who have given themselves over to darkness, hedonism, abuses, crimes and they may seem not to be candidates for repentance. But who knows? Have they ever had a real chance? I know that Jesus will arrive on this earth, and whatever wickedness that is left on the earth that we haven't been able to transform on our own as covenant people (so to speak--we're never on our own, God is always with us) . . . then he will destroy that, I know. And those who hoped for success in their combinations will find themselves humiliated and helpless . . . but even they could repent and be received, if they will. And if they cannot or will not, God still won't punish them, he'll just say, "Ok, fine, but you have to live way over there away from the rest us."

Edited October 7, 2011 by Maidservant

[Rob Osborn]

Do the passages on Sodom and Gomorrah use the word punishment? The Book of Mormon passages, I can see do not. So why do you call these punishments? They fall under the category of "stopping" and "breaking", which I already acknowledge as essential to do. In these two instances, God is destroying the systems that exist, so that the land, the people, the society can start anew. Not to mention, in at least the Book of Mormon situation, many people were killed, injured and displaced by these natural disasters, who could not have been said to be wicked, individually speaking (small children for one thing, which would even have been in Sodom). The people are tried, humbled, destroyed by these acts of God and/or nature . . . but not punished. These are consequences, and destructions, but not punishments (in my understanding). Not to mention that these destructions are earthly, but it does not mean that the individual people involved are barred from repentence and progression (now from the spirit world), if they become willing. In fact, these people created their hell in their wicked societies and visited that hell on innocents (including their own children), and what the destruction does is like God saying, "That's enough hell. Let's start over and see if we can do heaven this time." (Which I think in the Book of Mormon instance they did). So God is actually stopping hell and punishment as the people had created those things for themselves and their neighbors.

Maybe it's a bit of semantics, but these words are so slippery sometimes, and I think it's worth making some distinctions. Maybe you would not make the distinctions I do, and I for sure wouldn't insist I am necessarily correct. Also I am not going to say that God never punishes. But God doesn't punish as a routine part of the plan, and many of the things we have in ages past taken as being punished by God we are starting learn, just isn't so, that they can be understood other ways more beneficial to light and progression. (Or so I am thinking.)

I once knew a young lady who told me the story of how she once was addicted to crack. Her parents finally learned of this and also she was older than 18, but she did come to them at one point and wanted help. The parents did feel angry and betrayed, of course. They told her she could move back in and they would help, but that they were going to be making some very strict rules specifically for her. For example, she actually had to start out sleeping on the floor in their bedroom, and she always had one of her parents with her at all times wherever she went. She had these restrictions for a while until she made quite a bit of progress on her recovery. Both she and her parents attended AA meetings (also a rule) and learned all they could and did all the steps. So they created some very strict rules for her that didn't feel good maybe (but in another sense were a relief), but these weren't punishments. They didn't take their daughter out back behind the woodshed and whip her with a whip due to her sin. Nor did they bar her from the family (on condition that she follow the strict rules). Had she decided not to do their rules or take their help, I have no doubt they would have perhaps have her stay away (maybe) especially if there were young children around, etc, but I'm sure they would have kept reaching out from time to time to let her know they loved her.

There was a time in my life many years ago when I had my temple recommend taken away from me. This was extremely unpleasant on many levels for myself, not least being weighed down by God's disappointment in me, and disappointment in myself, but was it a punishment? I would say, no. It was an opportunity to concentrate on some basics, and to be released (for the moment) from the requirements of my further covenants, and at no time did the Savior stop from laboring with me in love, both on a personal and direct level in my life, as well as through his priesthood representatives on earth (my bishop). I was miserable in these years, but I was never punished, rather I was still led and blessed.

There are of course some truly wicked human beings in this world who deliberately work to oppress other human beings. There are also some darkened and wicked people who have given themselves over to darkness, hedonism, abuses, crimes and they may seem not to be candidates for repentance. But who knows? Have they ever had a real chance? I know that Jesus will arrive on this earth, and whatever wickedness that is left on the earth that we haven't been able to transform on our own as covenant people (so to speak--we're never on our own, God is always with us) . . . then he will destroy that, I know. And those who hoped for success in their combinations will find themselves humiliated and helpless . . . but even they could repent and be received, if they will. And if they cannot or will not, God still won't punish them, he'll just say, "Ok, fine, but you have to live way over there away from the rest us."

I think you may be sidestepping the actual reality that part of God's laws include punishment. The scriptures speak quite plainly tot he fact that God punishes the wicked. Sure, they also punish themselves through natural consequences, but divine punishment is indeed a part of eternal law. When we define what "punishment" is, we must do so in the simplest of manner possible. It seems as if you don't want to admit in your mind that God can punish someone. Causing it to rain fire and brimstone down on ones head is the very definition of "punishment". Punishment don't have to last a long time- it can be short, it can also be a means to an end such as destroyng the wicked, etc. We must ask- Does God punish the wicked when they get to a point where they are "ripe for destruction"? Of course he does- there is no doubt that God punishes the wicked through various means of pain and suffering and even physical destruction. Why deny the fact that God punishes the wicked? Does this mean that he completely forsakes them because he punishes them? Of course not. Often times, and in most cases the punishments He sets up are the beginnings to a means to reform an individual or society. Spirit prison is a punishment fo rht ewicked and disobedient. But, it is also a place of waiting and a place to contemplate and think about ones torment so that reformation can take place. Is not our own prison system the very same?

If we can't agree at this point then we are going to have to start at the beginning and actually hammer out the semantics of the word "punishment" which I am more than willing to discuss.

[HeatherAnn]

"God" can. The "laws" are created by "God". Nothing Exists outside of "God".

Yet, if God is love. And love is wanting what's best for us eternally, most of the time, God wouldn't infringe on learning opportunities, unless doing so would be another learning experience...

Yes, of course "God" can prevent consequences from harmful beliefs. Would "God" do so? That is the question that needs to be explored. And if not, why not? The short answer is, saving from consequences would prevent learning what Joy is not.

Our connection to "God" can result in our prayers being answered instantaneously. The person we pray for is connected to "God" too; and via that Source of our Existence, we are connected. But our thoughts and emotions remain sovereign. I do not believe in the assertions that some people can know others thoughts and emotions as their own. I've seen no evidence that "God" ever turns anyone into a mind reader or empath. Some people are highly sensitive to the emotions of others. Nevertheless, they remain apart metaphysically....

It's written that Jesus was able to discern people's minds & was an empath. There are times when one will call or visit just when another needs it. I do think we are able to be in tune (on a more intuitive/spiritual/subconscious) level with others.

[HeatherAnn]

You know, a long time ago I came to understand that a belief was not really a mental conviction, but that belief was a whole soul condition (including the body). So to change your belief is to change everything. This is why Jesus Christ asks us to believe in Him. It is not a question of existence (such as whether or not there is a Santa Claus) . . . it is, rather, an invitation to transformation and atonement. When we believe, then we naturally move into a state of repentence, and there forward.

I also agree with you about how we have the privilege of assisting Jesus Christ in his work of atonement by serving others.

I agree - that beliefs affect us mind-body & soul. "Thou shalt love the lord thy God with all thy might mind & strength."

What we believe affects us, so we must be careful what we believe. "As a man thinketh so is he."

Believing in the need for another as a human sacrifice/scapegoat to suffer for the consequences of our harmful thoughts (& related feelings & behavior) when God intended us to experience the consequences so we could learn... doesn't seem like a healthy belief.

Yet, I do believe in healing... in the power of turning pain & harm into joy & health.

It just depends on how we interpret the Atonement. If we use it as an excuse to not take responsibility for what we should, & to blame or look down on others if they don't accept the same story we believe, or if we interpret it to feel ashamed of ourselves... it's not healthy. Yet, if we interpret the Atonement to be bringing "at one" our carnal states with our 1st/spiritual estates & applying faith that we & others are loved & have great potential, than I think that's healthy.

There's even a study that shows that how people relate to religious beliefs affects their healing (or not) from dis-ease.

Maidservant, if I understand you right, it's not whether Jesus actually exists or not... but believing anyway & letting that belief work for good.

"Functional illusions are priceless," as a friend wrote.

So... in essence, our saviors are functional illusions.

Illusions are perspectives, & truth is a process... a perspective.

Even if an illusion is "not real" - the influence from believing it IS REAL.

Edited October 7, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[rongo]

I personally hate this 'explanation'.

You're not alone. I have found this explanation to be very polarizing --- you either love it or hate it. I really like it.

Jesus had to suffer and die because all our eternal brothers and sisters were clamoring with a desire for blood and suffering in order for their sense of 'fairness' to be fulfilled? And what is attractive about this worldview?

Not really (or at all). Under this understanding, intelligences demand absolute justice. They aren't requiring anything other than absolute justice in the form of not allowing unpure, tainted intelligences to return to God's presence. That the infinite and eternal atonement by God Himself is what does bring to pass the bowels of mercy in the intelligences does not equal them "clamoring" for blood and suffering, a la the "Mola Ram Suda Ram" priest in "Temple of Doom."

What is attractive about this is that it offers an explanation of "why" and "how." The only explanations I am aware of.

Ostler suggests . . .

Interestingly, I find that those who have a real aversion to Skousen really like Blake Ostler. And vice versa. Nothing wrong with this; it just is. Not surprisingly, I don't care much for Ostler's philosophical explanations of the atonement or nature of God.

[The episode in Les Miserables with the Bishop of Digne and Petit Gervais] is, to me, is the best illustration of the Atonement ever written.

I would merely point out that it, and the other non-Skousen explanations, don't explain why or how. Could God bring about the atonement in some other way, or is this the only way? Why? Can He lower the standard to whatever He wants, because He is all-powerful and all-knowing? Why or why not? Etc.

[HeatherAnn]

I think many of the events - natural or mandated - that have been attributed to God were done so in hindsight, or after the fact, in accordance with their own worldview, or even religious/political justification at play.

On an associated note, I do not believe God himself willed, desired, and ordered Israelites to commit genocide, either.

I agree & am glad that someone else believes God (who is LOVE) would never 1st command, "Thou shalt not kill" & then a few years later command mass killing of men, women & children, so that the "children of God" may inhabit their lands.

It's a little disheartening when scriptures that have been corrupted by political powers, are taken literally. Yet I also have misinterpreted it.

It's a challenge to sort through the scriptures to find spiritual meaning sometimes... but it's awesome when it's found!

BTW - I liked your comparison of Atonement with Les Mis.

Edited October 7, 2011 by HeatherAnn