Sl Trib: Front Page Story. Lds Leader Dismissed.

[Robert F. Smith]

Taking into consideration Joseph Smith's reaction to the "steadying the ark" actions of individuals like Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, John Whitmer, William McClellin, etc., I'm somewhat dubious that he would have approved of Brother Kenny's actions in this matter. Nor am I persuaded that "selflessness" was the root motivation at work in this instance.

I was under the impression that these Scouting executives (a great many of whom are not Mormon) are part of a non-Mormon organization, not part of the LDS Church hierarchy. So I am not sure what D&C 28:6 might have to do with it. The young man concerned discussed this with his bishop beforehand, and even sent an email to his Stake President about it. The Stake Pres did not reply (until after the fact), and his bishop apparently did not raise any objection.

I can't read the young man's mind, so I don't actually know his motivation. Perhaps he should have handled it quietly by sending a letter to a general authority, thus taking it out of his hands. That may have been how you and I (with greater maturity) would have handled it.

[Senator]

From the Stk. Pres.:

"Scouting is endorsed by the prophet. He knows more than you and I about the efficacy and worth of scouting. I trust he has received revelation regarding this. For me, it is an easy and straightforward concept. I follow the prophet."

It's this kind of spiritual manipulation and intimidation, that grinds me.

The next time the "we don't blindly follow the Prophet" apologetic surfaces, I'll simply have to chuckle.

[mnn727]

Not only are their (BSA Execs) salaries astronomical for what they do, they always fly first class and stay at expensive hotels.

I have a close relative (immediate family) that works for the travel agency that does their travel arrangments.

[William Schryver]

I was under the impression that these Scouting executives (a great many of whom are not Mormon) are part of a non-Mormon organization, not part of the LDS Church hierarchy. So I am not sure what D&C 28:6 might have to do with it. The young man concerned discussed this with his bishop beforehand, and even sent an email to his Stake President about it. The Stake Pres did not reply (until after the fact), and his bishop apparently did not raise any objection.

I can't read the young man's mind, so I don't actually know his motivation. Perhaps he should have handled it quietly by sending a letter to a general authority, thus taking it out of his hands. That may have been how you and I (with greater maturity) would have handled it.

My impression, after reading the story (and it is entirely possible I have misinterpreted things to some degree) was that neither the Bishop nor the Stake President understood that Brother Kenny was going to endeavor to publicly undermine the Friends of Scouting project, and that they only came to appreciate what he was doing after the fact. I also interpreted Kenny's actions as a political statement directed towards Church leadership, more than towards BSA leadership. That is the perspective upon which my comments are predicated. To the extent my impressions are correct, then, given the long-standing fact of LDS Church alliance with the BSA program, I am inclined to believe the appropriate course of action for Brother Kenny would have been to do as you suggest: "handled it quietly by sending a letter" through the appropriate channels of church leadership.

Again, I am not in philosophical disagreement with Brother Kenny, in that I am not and never have been a big fan of the scouting program. My only problem with this whole thing is that I feel like Brother Kenny's actions have brought unwarranted criticism upon the heads of the church--thereby violating what I feel to be the "unwritten order of things."

[silvermoon383]

So what is considered an astronomical salary? I have a friend who is a district executive (the lowest level of executive), and I put in for a position as one in a different area. I know what the salary is for them, and it's a step back for me since my engineering degrees makes me worth 10k more easily. Heck the Scout Executive (the guy in charge of an entire BSA Council) gets the same pay as an entry level engineer.

In my investigations of working for the BSA I've found the salary of the Chief Scout Executive. Compared with the pay of most other CEOs (the equivalent position in other companies), his pay (approximately 500k) is a joke. They aren't kidding when they list a love for and desire to work with the scouts as a requirement for the job. If you don't do either you'll hate the job in 10 minutes.

So what do the FoS drives pay for? Yes, they do go to pay the Council salaries, but before you go screaming about it, think about this: the districts are the ones that support the troops. Scouting in the Church doesn't show it a lot, but even in LDS troops, if the districts went away there's be chaos. Each troop would be left to itself to do everything.

The FoS drives aren't a big deal, and despite shoddy reporting in the past, the money DOES help the boys.

[William Schryver]

From the Stk. Pres.:

"Scouting is endorsed by the prophet. He knows more than you and I about the efficacy and worth of scouting. I trust he has received revelation regarding this. For me, it is an easy and straightforward concept. I follow the prophet."

It's this kind of spiritual manipulation and intimidation, that grinds me.

The next time the "we don't blindly follow the Prophet" apologetic surfaces, I'll simply have to chuckle.

I want to parse the Stake President's statements and give some commentary on your interpretation of them:

"Scouting is endorsed by the prophet."

This is true.

"He knows more than you and I about the efficacy and worth of scouting."

This is possible.

"I trust he has received revelation regarding this."

This is the Stake President's opinion. It may or may not be true. It is quite possible, from my perspective, that the Church's alliance with BSA is related more to long-standing policy than to revelation.

"For me, it is an easy and straightforward concept. I follow the prophet."

Whether the Church's alliance with BSA is due to policy or revelation, I think the Stake President makes a valid point, in that, at present, scouting is the Church program for young men.

You then comment:

It's this kind of spiritual manipulation and intimidation, that grinds me.

This is your biased and polemical interpretation of the Stake President's statements. I don't perceive any manipulation nor intimidation inherent in those statements.

The next time the "we don't blindly follow the Prophet" apologetic surfaces, I'll simply have to chuckle.

Again, this is transparently polemical: nothing in the Stake President's statements indicates that he is choosing to "blindly" follow the prophet. His decision (which he considers "an easy and straightforward concept") is to follow the current policy of the Church (and, by extension, the Prophet). I don't see anything inherently "blind" about his choice in the matter.

[LeSellers]

I am not in philosophical disagreement with Brother Kenny, in that I am not and never have been a big fan of the scouting program.

I, on the other hand, love Scouting, even though few of my callings have been in the Young Men's program.

I do, however, feel that professional scouters are often overpaid. I know one (LDS), in the lower tiers, who is woefully underpaid, but his boss drives a very nice car and lives "uptown".

It may be that I hold many private "charities" in disdain because of their finances, particularly how much their senior officers "earn", so I desire all "volunteer organizations to have vows of pverty as a requisite for paid employment, but it goes beyond that. One example is the Red Cross. When Elizabeth Dole was the president of the Red Cross, her salary was wholly indefensible.

The contrast, the pitifiul stipends paid to some of the brethren (I believe many of them turn it down, having independent means) are barely worth mentioning. When a union boss in Chicago gets a $150,000 city pension for being on the payroll for one day, and President Packer receives less than half that for a serious job that requires six, 18-hour/days work, it seems somewhat less than trvial. Scouters in the upper ranks are likewaise more than merely well compensated. And I do not see any serious results form "attracitng the best and the brightest": the Scouting program is not getting better. Were it not for the volunteer work LDS Chruch leaders (like President Monson, and Catholic Church leaders, too) do, I wonder if Scouting would exist as a force for good in USmerica. I say this because the World Scout Movement has become a laguhingstock among those of us who respect moral values and goals.

Lehi

[frankenstein]

Taking into consideration Joseph Smith's reaction to the "steadying the ark" actions of individuals like Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, John Whitmer, William McClellin, etc., I'm somewhat dubious that he would have approved of Brother Kenny's actions in this matter. Nor am I persuaded that "selflessness" was the root motivation at work in this instance.

who was steadying the ark here?

Providing truthful information about where a persons money is going, when that person is in darkness about it, is now an unrighteous act?

The reaction of the Bishop seems typical, when the inconvenient truth is known, then the person who made the truth known, must be labeled as lacking in faith.

What is appalling is Bishops statement that indicates he is more concerned with keeping up with Jones than truth. I find it interesting that Jesus is the one who said "The truth shall set you free".

And I wonder where or when the Prophet command/instructed that ever one must give at least $50 to FOS. Money does not support the the Scouting program, the parents and leaders are the ones supporting the Scout program.

Lastly, given that the Bishop blames the email for the ward not meeting its goal, then that shows clearly that knowing or rather the truth of the matter, is a matter of concern for many people in that ward.

Why is the truth something so many people are scared of?

[cinepro]

Why is the truth something so many people are scared of?

Ultimately, that's the core issue here.

Would anyone be complaining if 99% of the FOS money stayed with the Troops and Councils and went directly to the programs and facilities, and Br. Thomas made a big power point presentation showing that? And as a result of the power point, LDS members felt great about donating and gave even more money to a great cause?

Why would that be any different than what he did?

People were donating money based on assumptions and ignorance. Now we have fewer assumptions and less ignorance, and we're acting like that's a bad thing.

My biggest concern is whether or not Br. Thomas said anything that wasn't true (or left out important information). Since no one is correcting him or bringing forth better information, I suspect that isn't the case.

I love the scout program, but maybe there are some things that need to be changed, and maybe it will take people like Br. Thomas to help get those changes made.

[rongo]

You have to understand the background and history. Friends of Scouting has been a sore point with many, many people, especially after the news came out, first in a Deseret News story and later in a Salt Lake Tribune story

Can someone please link to the Deseret News story?

[cinepro]

Can someone please link to the Deseret News story?

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/print/695226688/Scouts-may-be-thrifty-but-some-leaders-are-well-paid.html

[rongo]

Thanks, cinepro.

This flap reminded me of an article I read four years ago from the Orange County Register.

http://articles.ocregister.com/2007-06-08/news/24679081_1_greens-fees-alcoholic-beverages-prime-rib

[Senator]

This is your biased and polemical interpretation of the Stake President's statements.

Yes, it is.

I don't perceive any manipulation nor intimidation inherent in those statements.

Ok,

But I do.

His decision (which he considers "an easy and straightforward concept") is to follow the current policy of the Church (and, by extension, the Prophet). I don't see anything inherently "blind" about his choice in the matter.

Yes, given the invoking of "I trust that he has recieved revelation of this matter", I'm quite sure the couched judgement of Bro. Thomas's (un)faithfulness had no spirtitual implications whatsoever, and was soley based upon his testimony of current church policy and procedure.

[Scott Lloyd]

Ack, the church isn't true. Time to bail on it!!!!!!

(end sarcasm)

I just have this ugly feeling that some of this story from a heavy anti-LDS leaning rag might be left out. I know there are situations where we get this boo-hoo story, but what might have actually happened is this guy got mouthy because he wasn't getting the exact support he expected, and he started crossing some lines.

I just hate taking positions on media stories.

For what it's worth, I know the writer of the story. I trust his professionalism and fairness.

I'm well aware of the Tribune's reputation regarding stories about the Church, but I should mention that the writer was for many years a Deseret News staff writer of considerable stature. He left only last year to take a job with the Tribune not long after the restructuring at the Deseret News, though he himself was not one of the writers who were laid off.

In fact, it was while he was working at the Deseret News that he wrote his first investigative piece disclosing the salaries of certain well-compensated Scouting executives. He wrote a similar story for the Tribune earlier this year which was essentially an update of his Deseret News piece.

Add-on: I see that Cinepro has already linked to his Deseret News story.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I have contributed money to FOS over the years without knowing anything at all about BSA executive salaries, and have been collecting funds for it this time around, so I appreciate this courageous young man's effort to be "thrifty, brave," etc. We need more selflessness in the leaders of young men, and (sadly) this is notice to anyone willing to rock the boat that they will be called to account and humiliated. Sounds like something young Joseph Smith might have done regardless of consequences.

I have very warm memories of my time in Scouting -- the great scoutmaster and his assistant, who served without compensation; summer camp, long overnighters, and wonderful singing around the campfire. Young men need the camaraderie. Where were those highly paid executives? I never met one.

A point of clarification is in order here, though it is somewhat peripheral to the topic. Being Young Men president means only that the president presides over the auxiliary organization in the ward called the Young Men. The president himself is an adult leader who himself may or may not be young. Conceivably, someone of middle age or older could be called to be the Young Men president.

Just want to make that point so we don't get the image of an adult stake president browbeating some teenager.

[Scott Lloyd]

Again, I am not in philosophical disagreement with Brother Kenny, in that I am not and never have been a big fan of the scouting program. My only problem with this whole thing is that I feel like Brother Kenny's actions have brought unwarranted criticism upon the heads of the church--thereby violating what I feel to be the "unwritten order of things."

Actually, if we are to take him at his word, you are in philosophical disagreement with him on this point, because he says he does like the Scouting program:

Thomas said in an interview, “I support Scouting and what it can do for the youth, but am concerned about the administration of the BSA. I think there is a lot of waste, and the salaries are too high. I am not attacking scouting or the church. I would like to see change in BSA administration. I think that most people understand that.”

I tried to make this point earlier, but perhaps it bears repeating: We need to differentiate between the Scouting movement itself with its goals and purposes and the way it is currently being administered. And while I have many times heard President Monson and other Church leaders give broad endorsement to Scouting, I've never heard any of them address the specifics of how it is being run or the amount of compensation received by its corporate managers. In fact, I don't think the latter was very well known or understood before Lee Davidson's first piece came out in the Deseret News.

That said, I agree with you in that I wish Thomas had found another way to deal with his concerns. I don't like the way this whole thing is feeding the torches-and-pitchforks appetite of the anti-Mormon mob.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[Bsix]

Scott Lloyd...you seemed to endorse the Kenny Thomas story as newsworthy and legitimate. The Tribune (it seems) was correct to run it.

Is the DesNews going to do a story about Brother Thomas and his dismissal?

Thanks,

Six

[Scott Lloyd]

Scott Lloyd...you seemed to endorse the Kenny Thomas story as newsworthy and legitimate. The Tribune (it seems) was correct to run it.

Is the DesNews going to do a story about Brother Thomas and his dismissal?

Thanks,

Six

You seem to have an inflated view of my importance in the organization, Six.

If you're asking whether I think the Deseret News should do a story about it, I would say, "Not necessarily."

I've never been a fan of pack journalism, and, while some events or issues are compelling enough to merit other news organizations playing catch-up or trying to outdo competitors, I don't think this is one.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[William Schryver]

Actually, if we are to take him at his word, you are in philosophical disagreement with him on this point, because he says he does like the Scouting program:

Yeah, I see your point. And I actually do agree with his arguments about the BSA upper echelons. I think their compensation is obscene.

That said, I agree with you in that I wish Thomas had found another way to deal with his concerns. I don't like the way this whole thing is feeding the torches-and-pitchforks appetite of the anti-Mormon mob.

Yes, this is what bothers me the most. And I think Thomas should have foreseen the consequences of going to the Trib with this story. It has ended up fueling the mob and bringing unwarranted criticism on the Church.

[William Schryver]

A point of clarification is in order here, though it is somewhat peripheral to the topic. Being Young Men president means only that the president presides over the auxiliary organization in the ward called the Young Men. The president himself is an adult leader who himself may or may not be young. Conceivably, someone of middle age or older could be called to be the Young Men president.

Just want to make that point so we don't get the image of an adult stake president browbeating some teenager.

Another thing that irks me is that the Trib refers to him as an "LDS leader," much as they characterized the gay executive secretary in San Francisco as "a member of the bishopric." Although I will grant that the Young Men's leader is probably more of a "leader" in a ward than the executive secretary, it is a misrepresentation to refer to Thomas as an "LDS leader." I'm convinced they do these kinds of things on purpose; they are aware that they are misrepresenting the facts. Certainly Peggy Fletcher Stack was aware of the misrepresentation she was perpetuating with her story concerning the executive secretary.

[cinepro]

I've never been a fan of pack journalism, and, while some events or issues are compelling enough to merit other news organizations playing catch-up or trying to outdo competitors, I don't think this is one.

Your headline could be:

"Wheat Separated from Chaff in LDS Ward Young Men's Presidency"

[silvermoon383]

So just what is an "adequate" salary? $30k? 100? $One million? *brings pinky to mouth*

[Calm]

Yeah, I see your point. And I actually do agree with his arguments about the BSA upper echelons. I think their compensation is obscene.

While I understand the theory behind the high salaries attracting people who have the right connections and who are known for making things happen, etc. etc. I have an issue with people getting paid money for incentives when working for a nonprofit, charitable organization. It would be better for them to get people who have retired who are committed to the work and are willing to donate their time.

[Cobalt-70]

But I believe it would also be, in a way, harmful to those that could otherwise use their accomplishments in scouting to help them get ahead in the world. For example; there are some people that while reviewing aresume would specifically not hire someone who listed his mission experiences because of bias against the church, but most people would hire an Eagle Scout in a New York minute.

As an aside; I still can't believe this organization has non-profit status and takes taxpayer dollars.

That's why the church might want, if possible, to simply license BSA trademarks without becoming a franchise of BSA. That would probably be a tough sell to the BSA, because they want to control their units and ensure that they produce a uniform "product." But if we throw enough money at them, and include a clause saying that the requirements for the LDS Eagle Scout will always be the same as the BSA Eagle Scout, maybe they might go for it. Then the LDS Church would be free from BSA control except as to the definition of "Eagle Scout."

As to the BSA's tax-exempt status, that's something to watch. Even though it is not a church, the BSA discriminates against gays, lesbians, and the transgendered. It also discriminates on the basis of religion against atheists and agnostics. You'd think that a policy of discrimination should disqualify it from getting public money. Churches and their BSA charters are free to independently discriminate because of the First Amendment, but I have a problem with giving tax-exempt status to discriminatory secular organizations. It's one thing for local charters, sponsored by churches, to independently discriminate for whatever religious or doctrinal reason, but the BSA itself should not be forcing its local charters to discriminate if it expects to get public money and tax exemption, and should be an equal-opportunity organization. Someone needs to change the US tax code.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Cobalt-70

[frankenstein]

... I have a problem with giving tax-exempt status to discriminatory secular organizations. It's one thing for local charters, sponsored by churches, to independently discriminate for whatever religious or doctrinal reason, but the BSA itself should not be forcing its local charters to discriminate if it expects to get public money and tax exemption, and should be an equal-opportunity organization. Someone needs to change the US tax code.

that is what letters to you Congressional Reps are for. I believe the Senate Finance Committee which oversees the IRS has more Democrats than Republicans. A concerted campaign might have some sway with the Finance Committee, but I do not believe the time is ripe for such an attack on religion and quasi religious organizations.