Sl Trib: Front Page Story. Lds Leader Dismissed.

[Bsix]

The Salt Lake Tribune has a front page story today about Kenny Thomas, a ward Young Men's President who has been released because of his opinions and activities related to the Friends of Scouting campaign in his ward:

"he could not in good conscience lead the annual Friends of Scouting fund drive in his LDS ward in Herriman without first sending an email to members to tell them that the money helps pay high salaries for Boy Scout executives and doesn’t stay with their local scout units."

He also ran a Facebook page to educate his fellow ward members.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52619808-78/scouting-thomas-friends-scout.html.csp

The Mormophobes are going crazy. Brother Kenny is the latest martyr in the cause of truth.

[David T]

David C. Roth, president of the LDS Herriman South Stake, told The Tribune that Thomas was “released because of his unwillingness to support scouting in general,” which is an activity arm of Young Men in the church, “and not just because of what he did with Friends of Scouting.”

He was released from being a Young Men's President, a role that part of its duties is to encourage participation in Scouts. If he's not willing to do that, he doesn't fit the job description, and should be given another calling where he can serve free of moral qualms. I don't see what the big deal is, or why this is even news worthy. If I was called as a Young Men's leader, and flat our refused to support Scouts, and actually campaigned against it, I'd expect to be released, too.

Edited September 22, 2011 by nackhadlow

[frankenstein]

He was released from being a Young Men's President, a role that part of its duties is to encourage participation in Scouts. If he's not willing to do that, he doesn't fit the job description, and should be given another calling where he can serve free of moral qualms. I don't see what the big deal is, or why this is even news worthy. If I was called as a Young Men's leader, and flat our refused to support Scouts, and actually campaigned against it, I'd expect to be released, too.

Good for that young man for standing up speaking out

I am with varsity in my ward. I support the scouting program. I do not support church time being used to pan handle money to pay salaries of person who are so lacking in business sense that they used guilt and afinity to pay their salaries.

What kind of friend to the scouting program is someone who puts salalry first. Which is what CEO,s do.

Edited September 22, 2011 by frankenstein

[cinepro]

I'm a huge supporter of the Boy Scout program, but I have serious problems with what I've been hearing about the situation with compensation (including pensions) among the professional Scout executives.

That being said, I couldn't support a YM Presidency that wasn't fully committed to the Scout program (as long as the Church continued to use BSA as its official activity for the Aaronic Priesthood), but I do think it's a great idea for people to know where the money is going when they donate it.

It seems people may have had a misconception about the disposition of FOS funds, and BSA may have been taking advantage of that. I would hope that Scout leaders, above all others, would prove themselves to be both trustworthy and thrifty when it comes to Scout funds.

Edited September 22, 2011 by cinepro

[Bsix]

1. In Utah, funding the Boy Scouts of America infrastructure is pretty much funding the infrastructure the Church uses. Virtually ALL of the scouting in Utah is through Church sponsored units.

2. Given the Church's almost fanatical mangement of funds, audits, and accountability, I have to believe that the Church is fully aware of the costs, salaries, and liabilities of the Scout Council it is supporting through its proxy fundraising efforts.

3. Assuming that the Church is fully informed, and endorses the ward level proxy fundraising, I take that as a signal of tacit approval on the part of the Church regarding the costs, salaries, and liabilities of the Scout Council...and the use of donated funds raised by Church members.

4. Assuming endorsement by the Church, it is reasonable to expect that local leaders will support the fund raising. Any leader that doesn't should reasonably resign or be released.

Edited September 22, 2011 by Bsix

[William Schryver]

He was released from being a Young Men's President, a role that part of its duties is to encourage participation in Scouts. If he's not willing to do that, he doesn't fit the job description, and should be given another calling where he can serve free of moral qualms. I don't see what the big deal is, or why this is even news worthy. If I was called as a Young Men's leader, and flat our refused to support Scouts, and actually campaigned against it, I'd expect to be released, too.

Well said.

I am not a big fan of the Boy Scout program myself. And yet I give $40 a year to Friends of Scouting. I would prefer that the Church develop a Young Men's program similar to the Young Women's program. I think the salaries of high-level BSA leaders are, quite frankly, way out of line.

That said, I think it is entirely inappropriate to try to force my opinions on the leadership of the Church, especially in the manner that this former Young Men's president chose: going to the media and creating a firestorm as has been done with this story. The last I looked, there were over 700 comments on the story, most of them from opponents to Mormonism who are pleased to see this kind of thing happen.

Like it or not, the Boy Scout program is currently the young men's program of the Church. If one is not willing to support it, then I don't think it is appropriate to accept a calling that presupposes that support.

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm trying not to rush to hasty judgment here, but after reading the Trib story, I have the perception that Thomas supports the goals and program of Scouting but disagrees with how it is being currently administered. That strikes me as analogous to supporting the United States and its constitution while at the same time disagreeing with the administration or congress currently in power. I see no shame in that.

[frankenstein]

deleted due to mistake in understand another poster. thank you for the correction/clarification Nack

Edited September 22, 2011 by frankenstein

[frankenstein]

I'm trying not to rush to hasty judgment here, but after reading the Trib story, I have the perception that Thomas supports the goals and program of Scouting but disagrees with how it is being currently administered. That strikes me as analogous to supporting the United States and its constitution while at the same time disagreeing with the administration or congress currently in power. I see no shame in that.

Well said and I agree with your assessment

[KevinG]

Since when is a release from a calling for any reason a front page news story?

Only in Utah.

[Scott Lloyd]

Since when is a release from a calling for any reason a front page news story?

Only in Utah.

You have to understand the background and history. Friends of Scouting has been a sore point with many, many people, especially after the news came out, first in a Deseret News story and later in a Salt Lake Tribune story, disclosing the lucrative salaries of Scouting officials, both on a national and more local level. Meanwhile, "volunteers" in local LDS units, most of whom never asked for the position but have had it placed upon them through a Church calling, give significantly of their time and personal funds. Add to that the fact that, at one time or another, some Church members have felt personally pressured -- not just encouraged -- to donate. And now, it appears the matter has generated sufficient tension between a Church member and his local leadership that he can no longer be allowed to function in the calling.

A major element of what makes a story newsworthy is the interest that readers have in the topic. On that basis alone, this one is very definitely newsworthy.

I can understand the necessity for a release under the circumstances. But there appears to be some rancor here that is unseemly. I sincerely hope it can be resolved without injury to any of the parties.

Edited September 22, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[David T]

Your characterizTion is not accurate. There is nothing to show he flat out refused to support scouts and that he actually worked against the scouting program . One of the persons in the article seems more concerned with bragging rights than anything else I.e our numbers were lower than other stakes or wards.

I was basing this on the specific statement of his Stake President, as quoted above.

[David T]

By the way, I find I may have accidentally reported posts a few times, with the 'Report' button being where the 'Reply' button used to be. Ignore any reporting I may have done, please

[Calm]

By the way, I find I may have accidentally reported posts a few times, with the 'Report' button being where the 'Reply' button used to be. Ignore any reporting I may have done, please

Unless you hit the send button, it would not have gone through (assuming this based on personal experience).

[frankenstein]

You have to understand the background and history. Friends of Scouting has been a sore point with many, many people, especially after the news came out, first in a Deseret News story and later in a Salt Lake Tribune story, disclosing the lucrative salaries of Scouting officials, both on a national and more local level. Meanwhile, "volunteers" in local LDS units, most of whom never asked for the position but have had it placed upon them through a Church calling, give significantly of their time and personal funds. Add to that the fact that, at one time or another, some Church members have felt personally pressured -- not just encouraged -- to donate.

Not only are the volunteers unpaid, the same volunteers must provide their own insurance in excess of some state minimums. As was explained to the Scout leaders in my area concerning vehicle insurance.

1. If Scout leader is driving their own vehicle and transporting scouts, that vehicle must be covered at a rate set by BSA.

2. If t the vehicle is not covered at the rate set by BSA, the BSA will not cover damages.

3. If the vehicle is not covered to BSA standards, the LDS Church will cover any damages either.

[toon]

I'm trying not to rush to hasty judgment here, but after reading the Trib story, I have the perception that Thomas supports the goals and program of Scouting but disagrees with how it is being currently administered. That strikes me as analogous to supporting the United States and its constitution while at the same time disagreeing with the administration or congress currently in power. I see no shame in that.

I agree.

I also think there's a big difference between criticizing how the Church is run (which is what the guy did not do, at least not initially) and critizing how BSA is run and the FOS program (which is what he did do).

That said, if he was unwilling to put his full efforts into FOS, then he should have asked to be released. In fairness, however, it sounds like he told his bishop about his reservations and his proposed actions and didn't get any objection until after the fact.

[toon]

double post

Edited September 22, 2011 by toon

[HeatherAnn]

I'm trying not to rush to hasty judgment here, but after reading the Trib story, I have the perception that Thomas supports the goals and program of Scouting but disagrees with how it is being currently administered. That strikes me as analogous to supporting the United States and its constitution while at the same time disagreeing with the administration or congress currently in power. I see no shame in that.

I agree & I think it's very important to demonstrate integrity, especially in scouting, which this man did.

Good for him!

Personally, I think the cub & boy scout programs are becoming too much about badges, money etc.. & not enough about learning to be good citizens & having fun!

[Cobalt-70]

I've always been a little uneasy about the marriage between the LDS Church and the secular BSA. Our goals are not always necessarily aligned, yet we have made them a virtual auxiliary arm of the church. I was a scout, and see a lot of benefits there, but maybe at some point we ought to consider creating an alternative scouting program that doesn't use their trademarks and copyrights, and doesn't rely on their organization and fundraising structure. It could even be basically the same thing, but maybe you would call an Eagle Scout a "Raptor Scout," or something like that. Maybe the church could even license the trademarks of BSA (for an undoubtedly-hefty fee, of course), but run its own program independently.

[Zakuska]

Not only are the volunteers unpaid, the same volunteers must provide their own insurance in excess of some state minimums. As was explained to the Scout leaders in my area concerning vehicle insurance.

1. If Scout leader is driving their own vehicle and transporting scouts, that vehicle must be covered at a rate set by BSA.

2. If t the vehicle is not covered at the rate set by BSA, the BSA will not cover damages.

3. If the vehicle is not covered to BSA standards, the LDS Church will cover any damages either.

Hasn't all this legal mumbo jumbo just made life a drag?! I remember as a kid in scouts we use to go out camping all the time and no body worried about any of this stuff... that I can remember. Of pertinance... We used to have this really fun ward activity every year where the whole ward would go down to one of the members farms and go on hay rides and feed the animals and such then they had this telphone pole sized swing that you could jump off of into some hay. Well it all ended when a few people in the ward who road the swing "at their own risk" and got hurt and then sued the members who owned the farm. Its like Paul chastizing the members for taking other members to court over things. it just sucks.

Excuse my rant.

[AddamS]

I've always been a little uneasy about the marriage between the LDS Church and the secular BSA. Our goals are not always necessarily aligned, yet we have made them a virtual auxiliary arm of the church. I was a scout, and see a lot of benefits there, but maybe at some point we ought to consider creating an alternative scouting program that doesn't use their trademarks and copyrights, and doesn't rely on their organization and fundraising structure. It could even be basically the same thing, but maybe you would call an Eagle Scout a "Raptor Scout," or something like that. Maybe the church could even license the trademarks of BSA (for an undoubtedly-hefty fee, of course), but run its own program independently.

I totally agree that an LDS run program would be much more efficient and designed to the standards to promote LDS values.

But I believe it would also be, in a way, harmful to those that could otherwise use their accomplishments in scouting to help them get ahead in the world. For example; there are some people that while reviewing aresume would specifically not hire someone who listed his mission experiences because of bias against the church, but most people would hire an Eagle Scout in a New York minute.

As an aside; I still can't believe this organization has non-profit status and takes taxpayer dollars.

[blackstrap]

If participation in Scouting was made optional in the Church,I wonder how fast the program would fade. Here scouting costs $150 per boy.30 boys is $4500/year.The scout insurance is not worth the paper it is written on. I think Canada does not have the emotional ties to Scouting that there is in the USA.I wonder how it goes in the rest of the world.

[jskains]

Ack, the church isn't true. Time to bail on it!!!!!!

(end sarcasm)

I just have this ugly feeling that some of this story from a heavy anti-LDS leaning rag might be left out. I know there are situations where we get this boo-hoo story, but what might have actually happened is this guy got mouthy because he wasn't getting the exact support he expected, and he started crossing some lines.

I just hate taking positions on media stories.

[Robert F. Smith]

Well said.

I am not a big fan of the Boy Scout program myself. And yet I give $40 a year to Friends of Scouting. I would prefer that the Church develop a Young Men's program similar to the Young Women's program. I think the salaries of high-level BSA leaders are, quite frankly, way out of line.

That said, I think it is entirely inappropriate to try to force my opinions on the leadership of the Church, especially in the manner that this former Young Men's president chose: going to the media and creating a firestorm as has been done with this story. The last I looked, there were over 700 comments on the story, most of them from opponents to Mormonism who are pleased to see this kind of thing happen.

Like it or not, the Boy Scout program is currently the young men's program of the Church. If one is not willing to support it, then I don't think it is appropriate to accept a calling that presupposes that support.

I have contributed money to FOS over the years without knowing anything at all about BSA executive salaries, and have been collecting funds for it this time around, so I appreciate this courageous young man's effort to be "thrifty, brave," etc. We need more selflessness in the leaders of young men, and (sadly) this is notice to anyone willing to rock the boat that they will be called to account and humiliated. Sounds like something young Joseph Smith might have done regardless of consequences.

I have very warm memories of my time in Scouting -- the great scoutmaster and his assistant, who served without compensation; summer camp, long overnighters, and wonderful singing around the campfire. Young men need the camaraderie. Where were those highly paid executives? I never met one.

[William Schryver]

I have contributed money to FOS over the years without knowing anything at all about BSA executive salaries, and have been collecting funds for it this time around, so I appreciate this courageous young man's effort to be "thrifty, brave," etc. We need more selflessness in the leaders of young men, and (sadly) this is notice to anyone willing to rock the boat that they will be called to account and humiliated. Sounds like something young Joseph Smith might have done regardless of consequences.

Taking into consideration Joseph Smith's reaction to the "steadying the ark" actions of individuals like Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, John Whitmer, William McClellin, etc., I'm somewhat dubious that he would have approved of Brother Kenny's actions in this matter. Nor am I persuaded that "selflessness" was the root motivation at work in this instance.

D&C 28

6 And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church ...