Sl Trib: Front Page Story. Lds Leader Dismissed.

[jskains]

Unless I am missing something, the BSA does not get public funding. The government simply recognizes it is a not-for-profit organization and hence has no profits to tax.

[Robert F. Smith]

A point of clarification is in order here, though it is somewhat peripheral to the topic. Being Young Men president means only that the president presides over the auxiliary organization in the ward called the Young Men. The president himself is an adult leader who himself may or may not be young. Conceivably, someone of middle age or older could be called to be the Young Men president.

Just want to make that point so we don't get the image of an adult stake president browbeating some teenager.

Once you reach my age, all these guys seem young. I was a scout back in the 1950s.

[Robert F. Smith]

Unless I am missing something, the BSA does not get public funding. The government simply recognizes it is a not-for-profit organization and hence has no profits to tax.

Frankenstein was suggesting (I think) repeal of the tax-exempt status of the BSA owing to their discriminatory conduct. However, that is not likely to happen in the near term.

[Storm Rider]

That's why the church might want, if possible, to simply license BSA trademarks without becoming a franchise of BSA. That would probably be a tough sell to the BSA, because they want to control their units and ensure that they produce a uniform "product." But if we throw enough money at them, and include a clause saying that the requirements for the LDS Eagle Scout will always be the same as the BSA Eagle Scout, maybe they might go for it. Then the LDS Church would be free from BSA control except as to the definition of "Eagle Scout."

As to the BSA's tax-exempt status, that's something to watch. Even though it is not a church, the BSA discriminates against gays, lesbians, and the transgendered. It also discriminates on the basis of religion against atheists and agnostics. You'd think that a policy of discrimination should disqualify it from getting public money. Churches and their BSA charters are free to independently discriminate because of the First Amendment, but I have a problem with giving tax-exempt status to discriminatory secular organizations. It's one thing for local charters, sponsored by churches, to independently discriminate for whatever religious or doctrinal reason, but the BSA itself should not be forcing its local charters to discriminate if it expects to get public money and tax exemption, and should be an equal-opportunity organization. Someone needs to change the US tax code.

What public monies do they receive?

[ERayR]

He was released from being a Young Men's President, a role that part of its duties is to encourage participation in Scouts. If he's not willing to do that, he doesn't fit the job description, and should be given another calling where he can serve free of moral qualms. I don't see what the big deal is, or why this is even news worthy. If I was called as a Young Men's leader, and flat our refused to support Scouts, and actually campaigned against it, I'd expect to be released, too.

My appraisal of the BSA is pretty much the same as brother Thomas. I am sure my feelings toward the Boy Scouts of America organization are why I am not YM president or maybe it is because I am too old to keep up with the kids.

[ERayR]

Taking into consideration Joseph Smith's reaction to the "steadying the ark" actions of individuals like Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, John Whitmer, William McClellin, etc., I'm somewhat dubious that he would have approved of Brother Kenny's actions in this matter. Nor am I persuaded that "selflessness" was the root motivation at work in this instance.

Anybody who would give his time to the YM program of the Church is selfless. Nobody would give that much time and effort without being selfless.

[ERayR]

My impression, after reading the story (and it is entirely possible I have misinterpreted things to some degree) was that neither the Bishop nor the Stake President understood that Brother Kenny was going to endeavor to publicly undermine the Friends of Scouting project, and that they only came to appreciate what he was doing after the fact. I also interpreted Kenny's actions as a political statement directed towards Church leadership, more than towards BSA leadership. That is the perspective upon which my comments are predicated. To the extent my impressions are correct, then, given the long-standing fact of LDS Church alliance with the BSA program, I am inclined to believe the appropriate course of action for Brother Kenny would have been to do as you suggest: "handled it quietly by sending a letter" through the appropriate channels of church leadership.

Again, I am not in philosophical disagreement with Brother Kenny, in that I am not and never have been a big fan of the scouting program. My only problem with this whole thing is that I feel like Brother Kenny's actions have brought unwarranted criticism upon the heads of the church--thereby violating what I feel to be the "unwritten order of things."

The scouting program is not part of Church doctrine, yet is treated as such by some. Because of the close ties between the Church and the BSA the greed of the BSA leadership reflects badly on the Church.

[jskains]

Frankenstein was suggesting (I think) repeal of the tax-exempt status of the BSA owing to their discriminatory conduct. However, that is not likely to happen in the near term.

He specifically said that they were getting public funding. A lot of people make this accusation even for the LDS Church, that being tax exempt means somehow they are getting public funding. That's wrong.

JMS

[ldsfaqs]

I could have sworn remembering a couple of years ago in a ward, a Bishop announcing the Friends of Scouting drive in that ward, and him being well familiar with the Scouting program in the area, directly stating that the "Friends of Scouting FUNDS" in fact go only to the local scouting program, and not to top leaders compensation, that they were paid through other funds?

[Calm]

See www.scouting.org/about/Factsheets/funding.aspx

Also see LDS-scouting.com/funding.aspx

Membership fees appear to be paid from the general stake checking account, not the fos funds, so it appears he was right if I am understanding what these pages say correctly.

That would mean the national council gets paid by tithing (at least the LDS share)?

However the executives in the local council are paid through fos and they may have high salaries, the Great Salt Lake Council executive gets over $200,000

Edited October 2, 2011 by calmoriah

[mercyngrace]

The scouting program is not part of Church doctrine, yet is treated as such by some. Because of the close ties between the Church and the BSA the greed of the BSA leadership reflects badly on the Church.

In my ward, FOS is handled without any pressure whatsoever HOWEVER I've been in more meetings than I care to mention where being an eagle scout has been described as some kind of spiritual rite of passage akin to going on a mission. One of our YM leaders actually told our cubs at a pack mtg presentation that they needed to do three things for a successful life: be an eagle scout, go on a mission, and marry in the temple.

This philosophy of men mingled with doctrine bothers me more than the obscene salaries of national execs.

Edited October 2, 2011 by mercyngrace

[Scott Lloyd]

In my ward, FOS is handled without any pressure whatsoever HOWEVER I've been in more meetings than I care to mention where being an eagle scout has been described as some kind of spiritual rite of passage akin to going on a mission. One of our YM leaders actually told our cubs at a pack mtg presentation that they needed to do three things for a successful life: be an eagle scout, go on a mission, and marry in the temple.

This philosophy of men mingled with doctrine bothers me more than the obscene salaries of national execs.

Alas, I've noticed a good deal of corner-cutting in the earning of merit badges and rank advancements.

I would prefer my daughter marry an honorable man who had not achieved the rank of Eagle than an Eagle Scout who had fudged on his requirements.

And I agree with you that Eagle Scout rank should not have the stature that honorable mission service and worthiness to marry in the temple do.

[KevinG]

In defense of Scouting at the Ward level.

Eagle Scout, Mission and Temple marriage are not causes of success... they are benchmarks or goals that show a young man can set high goals and complete them. Those three items are referred to by many LDS Prophets and Apostles http://lds.org/pa/di...,5171-1,00.html

If done right the program does fulfill its promise of building men of character. The US armed services recognize the value of an Eagle by awarding a rank promotion immediately upon completion of basic.

I whole heartedly agree that teaching boys to take short cuts is a poor way of teaching them to reach lofty goals.

The only time I allow a boy to skip a requirement is if the resources are not available to him, or he has a disability and he can provide a reasonable substitute. For example, we had one boy at camp a year ago that could not lift a bow because of partial paralysis. I found a stick with a Y at the end and made him a brace with duct tape. Once he could use his bones to form a stable platform he could get enough draw on the bow with his right hand to pass the requirements for the merit badge.

I'm still puzzled as to why the SLT felt the release of a single Scout leader from an LDS ward was worthy of the front page? I can see an editorial by the scouter as to why he doesn't like the FOS campaign, but releases happen all the time from wards and stakes and they are not news.

Edited October 2, 2011 by DaddyG

[cinepro]

In my ward, FOS is handled without any pressure whatsoever HOWEVER I've been in more meetings than I care to mention where being an eagle scout has been described as some kind of spiritual rite of passage akin to going on a mission. One of our YM leaders actually told our cubs at a pack mtg presentation that they needed to do three things for a successful life: be an eagle scout, go on a mission, and marry in the temple.

This philosophy of men mingled with doctrine bothers me more than the obscene salaries of national execs.

Before we start sorting things between "philosphy of men" vs. "doctrine", we should remember that a Prophet of God did stand in conference and say:

Young men, take full advantage of the Church programs. Set your goals to attain excellence in the achievement programs of the Church. Earn the Duty to God Award—one of our most significant priesthood awards. Become an Eagle Scout. Do not settle for mediocrity in the great Scouting program of the Church.

And Elder Hales read a letter from the First Presidency in conference which said:

“We desire all young men to strive to earn the Eagle Scout and Duty to God Awards."

Philosophy of men indeed.

[Scott Lloyd]

In defense of Scouting at the Ward level.

Eagle Scout, Mission and Temple marriage are not causes of success... they are benchmarks or goals that show a young man can set high goals and complete them. Those three items are referred to by many LDS Prophets and Apostles http://lds.org/pa/di...,5171-1,00.html

If done right the program does fulfill its promise of building men of character. The US armed services recognize the value of an Eagle by awarding a rank promotion immediately upon completion of basic.

I whole heartedly agree that teaching boys to take short cuts is a poor way of teaching them to reach lofty goals.

The only time I allow a boy to skip a requirement is if the resources are not available to him, or he has a disability and he can provide a reasonable substitute. For example, we had one boy at camp a year ago that could not lift a bow because of partial paralysis. I found a stick with a Y at the end and made him a brace with duct tape. Once he could use his bones to form a stable platform he could get enough draw on the bow with his right hand to pass the requirements for the merit badge.

i agree with you about the need for flexibility and reasonable adaptation to the needs of the individual in fulfillment of the requirements.

I'm still puzzled as to why the SLT felt the release of a single Scout leader from an LDS ward was worthy of the front page? I can see an editorial by the scouter as to why he doesn't like the FOS campaign, but releases happen all the time from wards and stakes and they are not news.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I believe there are other elements in this story beyond a mere release from a calling that tend to make the story newsworthy. But I've made my point, and I won't beat it to death.

[KevinG]

I won't beat you either Scott.

I do understand your point and I'm pretty close to agreeing with you. I'm just not sure this would have gotten past the editorial page anywhere but Utah.

Perhaps the mods will let us start a thread on the evils of large executive slaries in non-profit organizations?

[mercyngrace]

In defense of Scouting at the Ward level.

Eagle Scout, Mission and Temple marriage are not causes of success... they are benchmarks or goals that show a young man can set high goals and complete them. Those three items are referred to by many LDS Prophets and Apostles http://lds.org/pa/di...,5171-1,00.html

Scouting is not placed on par with other spiritual goals, rather it is describe as a preparatory program embraced by the church to aid young men to reach those spiritual goals.

From your link:

The purpose of the program is to help young men prepare for the Melchizedek Priesthood, the temple endowment, a full‑time mission, marriage, and fatherhood.

There is, at least to my mind, quite a difference between using the program as a means to an end and using the program as an end unto itself. We use scouting, among many other tools (seminary, Sunday School, firesides, EFY, youth conferences, combined youth activities, FHE, temple trips, etc) to build righteous priests. We don't use church activites just to build eagle scouts.

[KevinG]

Scouting is not placed on par with other spiritual goals, rather it is describe as a preparatory program embraced by the church to aid young men to reach those spiritual goals.

From your link:

The purpose of the program is to help young men prepare for the Melchizedek Priesthood, the temple endowment, a full‑time mission, marriage, and fatherhood.

There is, at least to my mind, quite a difference between using the program as a means to an end and using the program as an end unto itself. We use scouting, among many other tools (seminary, Sunday School, firesides, EFY, youth conferences, combined youth activities, FHE, temple trips, etc) to build righteous priests. We don't use church activites just to build eagle scouts.

Agreed - and our position fits well with the comments by Church officials. I would not consider getting a boy to Eagle a success if he weren't worthy and prepared for a mission. When done right in conjunction with priesthood quorum duties it can be a fantastic preparation.

Now if I could just figure out why weekly basketball is a good substitute for Teachers quorum wednesday night activities?

Edited October 2, 2011 by DaddyG

[Scott Lloyd]

Before we start sorting things between "philosphy of men" vs. "doctrine", we should remember that a Prophet of God did stand in conference and say:

And Elder Hales read a letter from the First Presidency in conference which said:

Philosophy of men indeed.

The goals and objectives behind the Scouting program are certainly consistent with doctrine.

But programs come and go. They are a means to an end but in and of themselves do not constitute doctrine. The Duty to God requirements have undergone significant changes very recently. And who here remembers the "Master M-Man" and "Golden Gleaner" programs?

Edited October 2, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[mercyngrace]

Philosophy of men indeed.

Culture.

If scouting were the gospel, we'd start BS programs in countries where such is not available. We do not. We offer a substitute program becuse it's the goals of scouting that are consisent with the gospel that matter, not the awards.

[Scott Lloyd]

I won't beat you either Scott.

Are you saying I'm a dead horse, DaddyG?

I do understand your point and I'm pretty close to agreeing with you. I'm just not sure this would have gotten past the editorial page anywhere but Utah.

Part of what makes a story newsworthy is local interest; I don't dispute that at all. I think this story would have legs in any locale where there was a high concentration of Mormons.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[mercyngrace]

The goals and objectives behind the Scouting program are certainly consistent with doctrine.

But programs come and go. They are a means to an end but in and of themselves do not constitute doctrine. The Duty to God requirements have undergone significant changes very recently. And who hear remembers the "Master M-Man" and "Golden Gleaner" programs?

Thanks for posting that Scott - you said that much better than I did. This is exactly what I was trying to get at.

PS I remember when the Merrie Misses and Blazer B's got together and learned what we now consider "scouting" skills. (I'm dating myself, I know...)

Edited October 2, 2011 by mercyngrace

[Scott Lloyd]

Thanks for posting that Scott - you said that much better than I did. This is exactly what I was trying to get at.

PS I remember when the Merrie Misses and Blazer B's got together and learned what we now consider "scouting" skills. (I'm dating myself, I know...)

I think I go back even farther than you. I remember the "Gaynotes," and "Merry Hands" in Primary, not to mention the Blazers, Trekkers and Guide Patrol, all three of which constituted the "Trailbuilders."

[KevinG]

Our ward in South Carolina has a young women outdoor and campcrafters program that kicked the Scouts butts!

[frankenstein]

Philosophy of men indeed.

It's one thing for. Prophet to encourage scouting it is quite another thing and not the place of YM leader to tell kids their life will be a failure if they do not become an eagle scout .... Yes indeed the philosophy of men