Pornography And Lds: 25 Years From Now...

[Bernard Gui]

If anyone who is reading this thread feels he/she has a problem with addiction of any sort, be assured

that help is available and your life doesn't have to be the way it is.

If you are the loved one of an addict, you are probably co-dependent, which means your life has

been messed up, too. There is help available, and you don't have to live that way forever.

Please seek out a recovery group, LDS or non-LDS, or a family support group. It can make all the

difference between a wasted life and a happy, productive life.

There is hope.

Bernard

Edited August 2, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[Duncan]

let me ask you this: is someone an sex addict who has intercourse 5-15 times a week, has a slew of kids but doesn't look at porn or someone who looks at porn but not regularly. Why is one bad but not the other? What different brain chemicals are released when someone has sex and has children because of it? I just don't buy the brain chemistry argument as to why Porn is bad. How about Porn like a MILLION other things can be a waste of time and energy

[keith_brian]

No, but repentance and a change of heart is needed.

No, but repentance and a change of heart is needed.

No, but repentance and a change of heart is needed.

This is not true about the LDS Church. There are criteria that are used to help the individual determine the level of his/her addiction.

1. How frequently does the person use pornography?

2. How long has the person used pornography?

3. What is the nature of the material being used?

4. What level of risk is the individual willing to accept to keep viewing pornography?

This is not unlike determining whether or not one is addicted to chemical substances.

Bernard

Okay, fine. I am glad that you wrote this (and it seems to run counter to some of your other posts in the same thread), and it's a statement with which I can agree. Just like almost any behavior imaginable (including eating, sleeping, or running), a lot of whether that activity is a hobby versus an addiction depends on the way in which that activity is used and how it affects a person's life, including an understanding of it using the criteria above.

And, if you had said that "I believe that a person should abstain from pornography in any form to any degree because I believe that's what my God commands," I would have no problem. I am not of your religion and I don't believe that any God commands this (and also that he/she/it/they have no right to tell me what to do with my sex life) and so we'll have to agree to disagree on the point. However, a lot of your arguments have seemed to center around a view that not only is porn wrong/bad to view because of a religious viewpoint but because any viewing of it, whatsoever, is pernicious in some way to the viewer. This is a view with which I do not agree and with which I think is not supported by available scientific evidence.

[scooby]

You haven't yet grasped the concept of addiction.

Bernard

Unless you would judge all addictions to be equally harmful, my call to empirically research the effects of pornography on marriage stands.

[Bernard Gui]

let me ask you this: is someone an sex addict who has intercourse 5-15 times a week, has a slew of kids but doesn't look at porn or someone who looks at porn but not regularly. Why is one bad but not the other?

If one of the partners is using the other to satisfy his/her addiction, there is a problem. A person who looks at pornography is not bad.

They just need a change of heart.

What different brain chemicals are released when someone has sex and has children because of it? I just don't buy the brain chemistry argument as to why Porn is bad. How about Porn like a MILLION other things can be a waste of time and energy

The chemicals involved are called endorphins and dopamine. Addiction messes up the body's natural production of these chemicals

and the brain's reaction to them. Getting back to sobriety partly means letting the body and brain regain control of the production

and use of these chemicals.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

Okay, fine. I am glad that you wrote this (and it seems to run counter to some of your other posts in the same thread),

Which statements?

and it's a statement with which I can agree. Just like almost any behavior imaginable (including eating, sleeping, or running), a lot of whether that activity is a hobby versus an addiction depends on the way in which that activity is used and how it affects a person's life, including an understanding of it using the criteria above.

The most important, IMO, is #4. What are is the person willing to risk?

However, a lot of your arguments have seemed to center around a view that not only is porn wrong/bad to view because of a religious viewpoint but because any viewing of it, whatsoever, is pernicious in some way to the viewer. This is a view with which I do not agree and with which I think is not supported by available scientific evidence.

You need to talk with some who is addicted or who lives with an addict. You also need to do a review of available scientific evidence.

Or attend a recovery or support group.

Bernard

Edited August 2, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Unless you would judge all addictions to be equally harmful, my call to empirically research the effects of pornography on marriage stands.

No, it doesn't. I would suggest you attend a recovery or support group to see the effects for yourself.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

If this thread continues, I will repeat this post for newcomers. I hope it is not breaking the rule against proselytizing.

I'm not stumping for any particular religion in inviting people to seek help.

If anyone who is reading this thread feels he/she has a problem with addiction of any sort, be assured

that help is available and your life doesn't have to be the way it is.

If you are the loved one of an addict, you are probably co-dependent, which means your life has

been messed up, too. There is help available, and you don't have to live that way forever.

Please seek out a recovery group, LDS or non-LDS, or a family support group. It can make all the

difference between a wasted life and a happy, productive life.

There is hope.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

Here's a non-LDS point of view that may be helpful to the skeptics:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125382361

Princeton University...

http://socialcostsofpornography.org/about.php

Bernard

Edited August 2, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[keith_brian]

Which statements?

The most important, IMO, is #4. What are is the person willing to risk?

You need to talk with some who is addicted or who lives with an addict. You also need to do a review of available scientific evidence.

Or attend a recovery or support group.

Bernard

Okay, so again, are you implying that all use of pornography is/leads to addiction? I want you to be very clear on this position. You seem to play innocent a lot (i.e. "which statements?") and then slide in this insinuation (like the statement that I bolded) at the end that any pornography use is or leads to addictive behavior and is pernicious for the viewer for reasons other than religious ones. Again, what is your evidence that this is true? Can you cite peer reviewed journal articles supporting this claim?

Note that I do not accept anecdotal evidence via stories from support groups as proof of your broad claims about porn usage.

[keith_brian]

Here's a non-LDS point of view that may be helpful to the skeptics:

http://www.npr.org/t...oryId=125382361

Bernard

Okay, so an anecdotal experience of one woman who lost her husband to pornography is proof that something similar will happen to all people everywhere that view porn?

Also, since the woman who wrote the article is anonymous, how can you be certain that she is not LDS?

Also, even in the woman's case, how can she or anyone else be certain that porn caused the disintegration of her marriage? Couldn't it be possible that there were deep preexisting problems with the marriage of which heavy porn use by the husband (as told from the biased POV of the jilted wife) was but one symptom?

[Bernard Gui]

Okay, so again, are you implying that all use of pornography is/leads to addiction? I want you to be very clear on this position. You seem to play innocent a lot (i.e. "which statements?") and then slide in this insinuation (like the statement that I bolded) at the end that any pornography use is or leads to addictive behavior and is pernicious for the viewer for reasons other than religious ones. Again, what is your evidence that this is true? Can you cite peer reviewed journal articles supporting this claim?

Note that I do not accept anecdotal evidence via stories from support groups as proof of your broad claims about porn usage.

I'm ok with that.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

Okay, so an anecdotal experience of one woman who lost her husband to pornography is proof that something similar will happen to all people everywhere that view porn?

Also, since the woman who wrote the article is anonymous, how can you be certain that she is not LDS?

Because good Mormons don't write for NPR.

Also, even in the woman's case, how can she or anyone else be certain that porn caused the disintegration of her marriage? Couldn't it be possible that there were deep preexisting problems with the marriage of which heavy porn use by the husband (as told from the biased POV of the jilted wife) was but one symptom?]

Read the rest of the article.

Bernard

Edited August 2, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[scooby]

No, it doesn't. I would suggest you attend a recovery or support group to see the effects for yourself.

Bernard

I proposed studying the effects of pornography on marriage empirically, and you said no, that I should instead attend a recovery or support group and, presumably, make anecdotal observations. I find this problematic.

[Bernard Gui]

I proposed studying the effects of pornography on marriage empirically, and you said no, that I should instead attend a recovery or support group and, presumably, make anecdotal observations. I find this problematic.

It's already been done.

And there is nothing wrong with observing

the effects yourself and drawing your own informed conclusions.

Bernard

Edited August 2, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[Storm Rider]

Okay, so again, are you implying that all use of pornography is/leads to addiction? I want you to be very clear on this position. You seem to play innocent a lot (i.e. "which statements?") and then slide in this insinuation (like the statement that I bolded) at the end that any pornography use is or leads to addictive behavior and is pernicious for the viewer for reasons other than religious ones. Again, what is your evidence that this is true? Can you cite peer reviewed journal articles supporting this claim?

Note that I do not accept anecdotal evidence via stories from support groups as proof of your broad claims about porn usage.

Keith, are you proposing that pornography is a healthy activity for adults? When discussing the rightness or wrongness of an activity I prefer to use the simple standard offered in the 13th article of Faith, "If there is anything vituous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things." In your opinion, how would pornography fit into that standard?

[Darth_Bill]

My wife used to be a counselor for LDSFS but stopped to take care of our growing family. I too get tired of the constant anti-porn messages in church (but not as much as the constant home-teaching commentary). When I asked her about it, she said that addiction, true addiction, is rather rare. If it becomes obsessive, then it becomes a problem, just as playing too much Farmville. It makes a person withdraw. Most men, even those addicted, do not act out on others. It is a selfish activity. That is what stresses a marriage.

Those men who view it occasionally can stress a marriage too, and the reaction of the wife to the issue. Lack of communication, ability or desire to change can manifest in marriage stress too, but these are underlying weaknesses. How the couple handles it is key.

What do I know? Nothing. I know marriages that break up for completely ridiculous reasons, IMHO, and very few were due to porn addiction...can't think of one. My wife doesn't know of one either. Adultery, yeah, but most of those weren't from porn.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Darth_Bill

[Kenngo1969]

... To call pornography addicting in the same way that drinking alcohol or abusing drugs are addicting, is completely fallacious. ...

Actually, no it isn't.

[Duncan]

If one of the partners is using the other to satisfy his/her addiction, there is a problem. A person who looks at pornography is not bad.

They just need a change of heart.

The chemicals involved are called endorphins and dopamine. Addiction messes up the body's natural production of these chemicals

and the brain's reaction to them. Getting back to sobriety partly means letting the body and brain regain control of the production

and use of these chemicals.

Bernard

But how is that any different from when anyone engages in intercourse? wouldn't the body react the same way and release the same chemicals?

Check this out. Music can be addictive as well

http://psychcentral.com/news/2009/06/15/emotional-music-triggers-addictive-brain-activity/6521.html

Edited August 2, 2011 by Duncan

[sweetpotatoh]

But as far as I can tell, even with our priesthood power and being led by Jesus Christ himself, we are doing almost the exact same thing all the other non-priesthood, non-Jesus led churches are doing. Denounce it from the pulpit, form support groups. Is there something better?

There is something better. it's called fasting and seeking blessings that allow us to overcome the addiction. It worked for me.

[keith_brian]

Keith, are you proposing that pornography is a healthy activity for adults? When discussing the rightness or wrongness of an activity I prefer to use the simple standard offered in the 13th article of Faith, "If there is anything vituous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things." In your opinion, how would pornography fit into that standard?

I think that most adults, outside of Mormonism, would see nothing wrong with occasional pornography viewing, just as they would see nothing wrong with occasionally drinking a beer or hitting a casino. I know many adults, including women, that view pornography on a semi-regular basis and still manage to avoid raping children or sleeping with four men per night.

I am aware that viewing pornography in any form at any level doesn't fit into your concept of morality, just as drinking and gambling at any level don't. I am suggesting to you that other people have other moral codes that include viewing pornography periodically and that they manage to live happy and healthy lives.

In other religious traditions, human sexuality would even be considered something to be embraced, not frowned upon.

[Ariarates]

Hi folks,

You've been busy while I was sleeping and at work on this side of the globe :-)

I haven't read all of the links that you so kindly provided but I skimmed most of it and did some random source checking. In general, I think much of what has been provided in terms of evidence has it backward. For example: 51% of all convicted rapists indicated that they looked at porn to work themselves up to the crime, which is then implied to be "evidence" that looking at porn leads to rape. You can't just turn that around and imply a causal relationship between porn and rape. That's not good science and in the sources I checked, the scientists do nothing of the sort - but the people who quote them often do (and then sell or promote their remedy).

Just think about it:

IF porn leads to incest, rape and crime (1)

AND porn is a serious problem among the Mormons (2)

THEN incest, rape and crime should be a serious problem among the Mormons (3)

Now, (3) is obviously not true (at least not that I know of), so (1) and/or (2) must be false. What I am saying is NOT that (1) is false but that the extent of both (1) and (2) are being exaggerated to the level of fear mongering by many churches, including ours. I'm not saying porn cannot lead to addiction (I believe it can), nor am I trying to promote porn in any way (I'm perfectly fine without it). All I want is to be able to go to church and hear about God and Jesus rather than pornography and masturbation.

Is that too much to ask?

[Bernard Gui]

I think that most adults, outside of Mormonism, would see nothing wrong with occasional pornography viewing, just as they would see nothing wrong with occasionally drinking a beer or hitting a casino. I know many adults, including women, that view pornography on a semi-regular basis and still manage to avoid raping children or sleeping with four men per night.

We can disagree about the effects of casual use.

The problem we are addressing is addiction.

I am aware that viewing pornography in any form at any level doesn't fit into your concept of morality, just as drinking and gambling at any level don't. I am suggesting to you that other people have other moral codes that include viewing pornography periodically and that they manage to live happy and healthy lives.

Not all people who drink are alcoholics.

But some are.

In other religious traditions, human sexuality would even be considered something to be embraced, not frowned upon.

In other traditions, addiction to pornography are just

as devastating.

Bernard

Edited August 2, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

There is something better. it's called fasting and seeking blessings that allow us to overcome the addiction. It worked for me.

That is certainly very important, but for most people

recovery also requires other help, too.

Bernard

[cinepro]

Twelve step programs, following the pattern of A.A. were finally endorsed in the General Conference before last. Colleen Harrison, author of He Did Deliever Me from Bondage, which was used by LDS social services for 9 years, demonstrated that the Book of Mormon contains the 12 steps. She wrote an essay for the Meridian celebrating that belated General Conference endorsement.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

This article is an interesting look at the history and effectiveness of the 12-step methodology:

Secret of AA: After 75 Years, We Don't Know How It Works