Pornography And Lds: 25 Years From Now...

[Bernard Gui]

Actually, I perceive that the Lord, Jesus Christ took the addiction from me once I was really ready to abandon it, and at this point in my life, I am very doubtful that I could, even if I wanted to, return to it again.

I'm so happy for you! It is the Atonement that sets us free, and you are free! Do you subscribe to Step 12?

Bernard

[Loran Blood]

Bernard, is watching television more important than your children not being beheaded by demons?

Bernard, is visiting the Mormon Dialogue message boards more important than your dog not dying in a car accident?

Bernard, is breathing more important than the sun not collapsing into a black hole?

There is a distinct and well understood causal connection between indulgence in porn and the breakdown of marital relationships. There is no casual connection between any of your examples above, which indicates that you are not even in the same universe of discourse as Bernard on this issue.

He is talking to you, and you are talking to yourself.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Loran Blood

[Bernard Gui]

The actual recidivism rate of the traditional twelve step program turns out to be fantastically high.

As it is with any addiction recovery program, sadly.

Bernard

[Duncan]

I can think of vast differences between looking at porn and actually having sex. Which brings us to a fundamental point, which, and I guess I have to be frank here, given the subject matter: pornography, precisely, is not real sex: Pornography, is masturbation. Period. Pardon my frank language, again, but pornography is the sexual life of the masturbator; it is the compensatory and artificial alternative to real sex - voyeurism. As its indulgence becomes entrenched, masturbatory voyeurism takes the place of "real" sex, as the surreal fantasy environment created by pornography displaces the relatively mundane realities of sex in the real world.

Further, sex in the world of pornography is consequence free (as all masturbationary exploits appear), as it allows one to fantasize about behavior that one would be loath to actually engage in in real life, due to the perceived probable consequences of such behavior, but which, in time, may become a live issue as the fantasy realm continues to displace and overwhelm the realm of reality.

As has been observed by many others, few real woman can ever compete with the highly primped and prepared (and airbrushed, in many cases) centerfold. Nor can most men ever compete with the typical Hollywood or soap opera "hunk."

This is what I said way back when. Your Mind knows the difference but your brain and subsequently your body doesn't and IMO reacts the same way with porn and sexual intercourse.

[Bernard Gui]

I think that it is important for LDS to rely on the Lord. It is what He wants us to do. I understand that some will need the companionship of a 12 step program.

The LDS program teaches the addict to rely on the Lord Jesus Christ.

I also understand that the consequences of pornography addiction affect spouses and children. The addict is selfish and this can lead to selfishness in all areas of life that can destroy a once healthy marriage and there needs to be programs in place to help families and spouses heal from the pain inflicted on them by the addiction

.

It's hard to say the addict is selfish. Helpless is a better word. The addict cannot sympathize with the devastation

he is causing around him until he is on the road to recovery. Until then, those around him are dealing with the

addiction, not with the addict. Think of the addiction as a bubble of glass in which the addict resides. You can see him in there and he looks like the person you have always known, but what you are dealing with is the glass bubble, not the person inside. Usually, he is incapable of recognizing you outside the bubble.

I also think many LDS may shortchange themselves by not seeking the blessings that come from fasting, regular scripture study and service. It took me over 40 years to figure out I can't do it on my own or with the help of the world, without the Lord involved.

That is the whole point of 12-Step, and especially the LDS 12-step program, which is thoroughly centered

on the Atonement and its application to the addict.

Any one who has an addiction I urge them to put it in the hands of the Lord. Let him heal you. He loves us and wants us to be happy and more importantly, as Men, he wants us to be able to serve his Daughters the way they deserve to be served.

Will somebody say "Amen!"?

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

If anyone who is reading this thread feels he/she has a problem with addiction of any sort, be assured that help is available and your life doesn't have to be the way it is.

If you are the loved one of an addict, you are probably co-dependent, which means your life has been messed up, too. There is help available, and you don't have to live that way forever.

Please seek out a recovery group, LDS or non-LDS, or a family support group. It can make all the difference between a wasted life and a happy, productive life.

You can start something that will result in freedom and restoration.

There is hope.

Bernard

Edited August 3, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[Storm Rider]

I think that most adults, outside of Mormonism, would see nothing wrong with occasional pornography viewing, just as they would see nothing wrong with occasionally drinking a beer or hitting a casino. I know many adults, including women, that view pornography on a semi-regular basis and still manage to avoid raping children or sleeping with four men per night.

I am aware that viewing pornography in any form at any level doesn't fit into your concept of morality, just as drinking and gambling at any level don't. I am suggesting to you that other people have other moral codes that include viewing pornography periodically and that they manage to live happy and healthy lives.

In other religious traditions, human sexuality would even be considered something to be embraced, not frowned upon.

I think you ignored my question If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy in pornograpy. Do you think pornography is virtuous or praiseworthy? Does any group teach that this is something that is healthy and good for humanity?

What I am saying is that it is not good for humanity; that there are better things to occupy your time and to promote a healthy sexual life. Human sexuality is not frowned about by the LDS Church; individuals are another matter just as they are in all organizations. I agree with you that it should be embraced and to be healthy both spiritually and physically a good sexual life is necessary.

Don't confuse the LDS position of being against pornography and being against sex. That would be a gross misunderstanding of our position.

[Duncan]

Just so everyone is clear I am against XXX, but I just don't buy the reasons that some others espouse

[Ariarates]

How is that a problem created by churches? A man (or sometimes woman, though not nearly so often) becomes addicted to porn (or maybe you don't believe there is such a thing-- in that case you can ignore the rest of this reply).

I already said I do not deny that porn addiction exists. I only think the incidence is much lower that churches claim.

His addiction creates feelings and desires that can only be satisfied by sexual behavior. At first he tries to satisfy them alone but eventually finds the need to act out in other ways.

I would be interested to know what these "other ways" are and how many porn addicts "act out in other ways" than indulging in their addiction.

True, it is a sin (as designated by his church) and sinning can cause stress and strange behavior, but the acting out continues until his family can no longer trust him to be honest and his desires become so consuming that he cannot control them in any "normal, society accepted" way. I do not see this as a church made problem but I do see it as a soul destroying issue. I have helped wives, children and even husbands as they try to live through the challenges this evil creates. It Breaks my heart and I believe it would break yours if you had to listen to the stories and experiences these folks have to endure.

By overstating the effects of pornography and the incidence of addiction, churches create a problem that is not really there for most of the people they are scaring.

Just for my clarification, you are not saying that all forms of moral sin are just creations of churches to control their members, right? If so, I understand your response.

No, I am not.

I too live in a secular land where porn is freely available and it is a HUGE issue-- both in the Church and out. Or maybe I'm just a 'global warming' kind of guy and I'm barking at the moon about all this.

All I can say is that it is not over here (north-western Europe). You hardly ever hear anything about it in the media except in religious media. I have never heard the topic discussed among non-LDS friends or acquaintances. I know porn is freely available but I am never confronted with it during my normal daily activities. It is there, but you must seek it out.

[Ariarates]

This is some old and chewy sexual revolution mythology that can be easily discredited by other social science data as well as a knowledge of the social history of the West and America, which bears the distinctive scars of the sexual revolution, a modern cult of eroticism of which pornography is a major component.

Please do. Please provide social science data that support the allegation that porn is such a huge problem for society as many churches claim. It hasn't been done yet in this thread.

I'd like a CFR for all of these claims, and then let's see if your sources can stand up to critical analysis.

These particular claims come from Edelman, B. (2009). Red Light States. Who buys online adult entertainment? Journal of Economic Perspectives 23 (1), pp. 209-220.

This is an ad hominem poison pill, not serious analysis.

It isn't intended as a poison pill. Most of the info on porn addiction as a huge societal problem comes either from churches or religious foundations, or from other institutions that are peddling their recovery methods. Is my perception skewed? Maybe, but you can correct that by provinding mainstream scientific research that shows just how pervasive and rampant this porn problem is.

What is your philosophy or pornography? Given the degree to which sexual addiction (of which addiction to pornography is a major component) is well known and understood within contemporary psychology and addiction counseling, the degree to which its symptoms and syndrome parallel very closely addictive syndromes in other areas (substance and other behavioral addictions), and its alarming prevalence among the general population, including among church members, I find your trivializing of both its fundamental nature and its effects to be both astonishing shallow and, most tellingly, spiritually lobotomized.

I guess Ares is on vacation? Anyway, I have no philosophy on pornography. I want nothing to do with it. The only time I am confronted with it, is in church. I do not deny that porn addiction exists, I only claim that it is a problem for a relatively small number of people.

Does not the deep and fundamental evil represented by both what pornography is as well as what it represents to the user cause you any concern?

Only theoretically. I have nothing to do with porn, so it's not something that keeps me up at night worrying about.

Your attitude, indeed, reminds me very much of the Christian minister who walks out to greet the alien invaders in War of the Worlds (1953) thinking that, because they were so technologically advanced, they were therefore "closer to the Creator." Like him, you are apparently wiling to expose both yourself, your children, and you entire society to exploitation, trivialization, and banalization of the most intimate relationship a man and woman can engage in and which has vast and sacred implications on the basis of nothing more than the imagery and feelings pornography seeks to elicit (which must be "good" if they make you "feel good."), which correspond to the bright, shiny and exotic machines of the Martians.

Perhaps the banalization of evil is one of Satan's most effective and underrated tools in the Last Days.

Thanks for the lecture but I'm going to ignore it.

[Ariarates]

which I'm sure then you can support with either logical argument or empirical data.

I did, both with logic and data.

I live in a country (United States) where pornography is freely available to any adult or child on any computer connected to the Internet in vast profusion and endless variety, and I"m telling you your bare assertions have no basis in human reality. I could also point out that in ancient feudal Japan, the Samarui lived in a society in which any Samarui, at any time, could line up peasent villagers and test the sharpness of his sword on them. He would also have told you that this was "not a problem." Do you see what I'm getting at, Ariarates?

Not really.

I'll let you in on a little secret that people who actually have the intellectual seriousness and curiosity to dig deep into their own minds and into the core questions of the human condition already know: the entire West is porn crazed. A cult of eroticism developed here from the late sixties onward that has affected probably nearly everyone in the culture, to one degree or another, and in one form or another. Sex addiction is its most extreme form. "Pornography" in the sense of visual depiction of sexual activity or symbolic suggestiveness has saturated the popular culture for forty years in America and Europe, and it continues to saturate the popular culture in ever more easily available and extreme forms. The porn "craze" is all around you, "built in" to most of popular media, including film, television, pop music, advertising, and the "hardcore" pornography industry (which is I think what most people mean by "pornography," although my definition is a bit broader).

"A bit broader"? If this is your definition of porn, then I fully agree with your assessment of its ubiquity. I just don't agree with your sweeping inclusion of all things physical.

What your statements so far are telling me is that you do not see pornography as an issue and do not see the sheer level of immersion present in western culture by this medium, because you yourself have absorbed and acclimatized yourself to it to the point that it has dissapeared to your consciousnesses.

This is, given the fundamental nature of pornography, rather like Wile E. Coyote opening that little umbrella over his head as a 50 ton rock falls toward him from above.

This is part of, I think, what the Book of Mormon means by Satan "lulling" the latter day Gentiles into "carnal security."

Again, thanks for the lecture but don't preach on my account. If it makes you feel better or superior, by all means, keep going.

[Bernard Gui]

Just so everyone is clear I am against XXX, but I just don't buy the reasons that some others espouse

I believe you are sincerely looking for answers. I hope you continue until you find the truth.

Bernard

[keith_brian]

I'm afraid we are not communicating.

Using a highly publicized true case, so that I am not revealing any confidences, let's look at a public servant. I will not mention his location or profession because I respect his right to privacy and his right to pursue healing.

He's a highly moral man, well-respected by his fellow workers and the public he serves. He works hard and is a devoted father and husband.

He serves in the church and community organizations. He has received many honors and decorations for his service. He has a problem: he's secretly addicted to pornography. He has been since his teenage years when he was exposed to it at a friend's home. No one suspects, not even his wife of many

years. Inside he is in h*** everyday. He knows that this is wrong and if he is exposed it will cost him pretty much everything that is good in his life. Is he willing to risk all that, just for another hit of pornography? Can't his feelings of

shame and guilt cause him to just stop and walk away?

To help hide his addiction, he uses a laptop computer in his car. But one night someone sees a light coming out of the interior of a car and approaches to find out what it is. Since he is on official business, the person recognizes him and videotapes him watching pornography in his car on the public's time.

With the ensuing publicity, he loses everything that is good in his life, including his family.

This is sexual addiction. It is different than running, walking, sleeping, diving, roller-blading, walking the dog, picking your nose. He risked losing everything because he could not stop using pornography. His agency was held hostage

by his addiction, and he paid the price. I know the man personally and watched him crash and burn in horror.

If you can't see the point now, I can't help you.

Bernard

One man, one specialized case. What about the millions of other people who view porn and lead normal lives?

[keith_brian]

There is a distinct and well understood causal connection between indulgence in porn and the breakdown of marital relationships. There is no casual connection between any of your examples above, which indicates that you are not even in the same universe of discourse as Bernard on this issue.

He is talking to you, and you are talking to yourself.

I have seen no convincing, objective, scientific evidence on the causal relationship between viewing porn and marriages breaking up. You and Bernard keep asserting this, but you have, as yet, provided no evidence to support this position, other than anecdotal evidence.

Thus, the examples I've used are valid as they have just as much relationship as that demonstrated between marriages breaking up and porn use.

[Jeff K.]

I have seen no convincing, objective, scientific evidence on the causal relationship between viewing porn and marriages breaking up. You and Bernard keep asserting this, but you have, as yet, provided no evidence to support this position, other than anecdotal evidence.

Thus, the examples I've used are valid as they have just as much relationship as that demonstrated between marriages breaking up and porn use.

Nor will you, even if its made available to you. Forget the studies already presented they don't exist.

[Jaybear]

Nor will you, even if its made available to you. Forget the studies already presented they don't exist.

I don't doubt that there is a connection between porn viewing and marital problems.

Though I suspect that the problem isn't derived from simply viewing the porn, but rather from getting caught viewing the porn.

Edited August 3, 2011 by Jaybear

[Bernard Gui]

One man, one specialized case. What about the millions of other people who view porn and lead normal lives?

You seem to be unable to address the issue of addiction.

Read this paper. Do some online study and get yourself

up to date.

http://www.frc.org/special/pat-fagan/virtual-intimacy-and-pseudo-sexuality

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

I don't doubt that there is a connection between porn viewing and marital problems.

Though I suspect that the problem isn't derived from simply viewing the porn, but rather from getting caught viewing the porn.

http://www.frc.org/special/pat-fagan/virtual-intimacy-and-pseudo-sexuality

Bernard

[Jaybear]

http://www.frc.org/special/pat-fagan/virtual-intimacy-and-pseudo-sexuality

Bernard

Just as I suspected. Per your link:

“Women commonly report feelings of betrayal, loss, mistrust, devastation, and anger as responses to the discovery or disclosure of a partner’s pornography use and/or online sexual activity,”58 and they are often repulsed by it.59 The distress level in wives is generally so high it needs to be treated by clinicians as trauma, not discomfort.6

The obvious less to men, don't get caught looking at porn.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 03 August 2011 - 07:58 AM, said:

Nor will you, even if its made available to you. Forget the studies already presented they don't exist.

I don't doubt that there is a connection between porn viewing and marital problems.

Though I suspect that the problem isn't derived from simply viewing the porn, but rather from getting caught viewing the porn.

Based on that logic, heroin addiction is only a problem if you are caught shooting. I don't think anyone accepts that view here.

[Bernard Gui]

Just as I suspected. Per your link:

The obvious less to men, don't get caught looking at porn.

I'm appalled by this callous insensitive response.

Bernard

Edited August 3, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 03 August 2011 - 07:58 AM, said:

Nor will you, even if its made available to you. Forget the studies already presented they don't exist.

I don't doubt that there is a connection between porn viewing and marital problems.

Though I suspect that the problem isn't derived from simply viewing the porn, but rather from getting caught viewing the porn.

Based on that logic, heroin addiction is only a problem if you are caught shooting. I don't think anyone accepts that view here.

[LeSellers]

The obvious less[on?] to men, don't get caught looking at porn.

There is exactly one way to assure that.

Lehi

[Jaybear]

There is exactly one way to assure that.

Lehi

Sure, but how healthy can it be to a man's ego to suppress his natural (God given) instinct to look, or in this instance click, out of fear of getting caught by your wife.

[keith_brian]

I think you ignored my question If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy in pornograpy. Do you think pornography is virtuous or praiseworthy? Does any group teach that this is something that is healthy and good for humanity?

What I am saying is that it is not good for humanity; that there are better things to occupy your time and to promote a healthy sexual life. Human sexuality is not frowned about by the LDS Church; individuals are another matter just as they are in all organizations. I agree with you that it should be embraced and to be healthy both spiritually and physically a good sexual life is necessary.

Don't confuse the LDS position of being against pornography and being against sex. That would be a gross misunderstanding of our position.

As I don't believe in a higher power, I find the metric "virtuous, lovely, or of good report" to be ill-defined. From whom are you taking your definition of what is virtuous? From your god? Similarly, from whom are you seeking praise? From your god? As I don't believe in god, I don't think we could compare metrics on this point.

I am going to expand on this point to answer a criticism ahead of time I know that I'm going to get back. No, it's not at all obvious what actions constitute something "virtuous" in life, especially if you operate under the belief of no higher power (i.e. Thor et al. don't exist). As an example, many other cultures have a vastly different view on human sexuality than the Mormon church does. I have it on good authority from a Navajo friend of mine that something like pornography wouldn't even raise eyebrows in their culture. A lot of other cultures are similar. Also, see the Kama Sutra.

Don't confuse porn as somehow being a separate entity from human sexuality. That is a gross misunderstanding of both porn and human sexuality.