Pornography And Lds: 25 Years From Now...

[Storm Rider]

Okay you two, that is enough. Give it a rest.

[keith_brian]

I get the feeling you're trying to win this argument on sheer volume alone.

Nope. Pretty comfortable with it.

That talk is about porn addiction. It even says so in the title.

Try again.

Another 2011 study that might be of interest to you. I don't have the citation, so I'll just copy the title and authors list. I trust you can find the reference.

Mental- and Physical-Health Indicators and Sexually Explicit

Media Use Behavior by Adultsjsm_2030 764..772

James B. Weaver, III, PhD, MPH,* Stephanie Sargent Weaver, PhD, MPH,* Darren Mays, PhD, MPH,*

Gary L. Hopkins, MD, DrPH,† Wendi Kannenberg, MPH,† and Duane McBride, PhD†

*Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, GA, USA; †Center for Media Impact Research, Institute for the

Prevention of Addictions, Andrews University, Berrien Springs, MI, USA

DOI: 10.1111/j.1743-6109.2010.02030.x

A direct quote:

Most obviously, our understanding about interrelationships

among mental health indicators,

SEMB, and sexual risk behaviors among adults

requires further development. Indeed, while our

findings point to depressive symptomatology as a

determinant associated with SEMB, the specific

nature and directionality of the relationship

between depression and SEMB remains uncertain.

I still think that the jury is out on the ill effects of non-addictive, normal use of "porn".

Also, to answer your earlier quote, child porn is not normal use of porn.

Edited August 4, 2011 by keith_brian

[keith_brian]

Okay you two, that is enough. Give it a rest.

I thought that we'd come to an understanding.

I am happy to concede that people shouldn't view porn because of religious reasons.

I, however, do not concede the view that science say normal use of pornography is harmful, as Bernard keeps claiming.

[Bernard Gui]

I get the feeling you're trying to win this argument on sheer volume alone.

Um...I got carried away. See edit.

Bernard

Edited August 4, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

That talk is about porn addiction. It even says so in the title.

So is this thread; nevertheless, the authors address the issue of pornography itself in the paper.

For your convenience, I reprint this excerpt from above:

In 2006 world pornography revenue was 97 billion dollars, more than Microsoft, Google, Amazon, eBay, Yahoo, Apple, and Netflix combined. [14] This is no casual, inconsequential phenomenon, yet there is a tendency to trivialize the possible social and biologic effects of pornography. The sex industry has successfully characterized any objection to pornography as being from the religious/moral perspective; they then dismiss these objections as First Amendment infringements. If pornography addiction is viewed objectively, evidence indicates that it does indeed cause harm in humans with regard to pair-bonding. [2] The correlation (85%) between viewing child pornography and participating in actual sexual relations with children was demonstrated by Bourke and Hernandez. [4] The difficulty in objective peer-reviewed discussion of this topic is again illustrated by the attempted suppression of this data on social grounds. [15] The recent meta-analysis by Hald et al. strongly supports and clarifies previous data demonstrating correlation with regard to pornography inducing violence attitudes against women. [10] With such strong correlative data, it is irresponsible not to address the likely possibility of causation in these regards. Reviewing this data in the context of current usage patterns is particularly concerning; 87% of college age men view pornography, 50% weekly and 20 daily or every other day, with 31% of women viewing as well. [5] The predictive effect of pornography on sexual behavior in adolescents has also been demonstrated.

Bernard

Edited August 4, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Another 2011 study that might be of interest to you. I don't have the citation, so I'll just copy the title and authors list. I trust you can find the reference.

Mental- and Physical-Health Indicators and Sexually Explicit

Media Use Behavior by Adultsjsm_2030 764..772

James B. Weaver, III, PhD, MPH,* Stephanie Sargent Weaver, PhD, MPH,* Darren Mays, PhD, MPH,*

Gary L. Hopkins, MD, DrPH,† Wendi Kannenberg, MPH,† and Duane McBride, PhD†

*Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, GA, USA; †Center for Media Impact Research, Institute for the

Prevention of Addictions, Andrews University, Berrien Springs, MI, USA

DOI: 10.1111/j.1743-6109.2010.02030.x

I still think that the jury is out on the ill effects of non-addictive, normal use of "porn".

Also, to answer your earlier quote, child porn is not normal use of porn.

For those who use it, it is.

Is this the paper that also says this?

Abstract

Introduction.  Converging evidence from culturally diverse contexts indicates that sexually explicit media use behavior (SEMB; i.e., pornography consumption) is associated with risky sexual health perceptions and behaviors, many that involve high risks of HIV/STD transmission. Aim.  Essentially unexplored, and the focus here, are potential relationships between SEMB and nonsexual mental- and physical-health indicators. Main Outcome Measures.  Variability in six continuously measured health indicators (depressive symptoms, mental- and physical-health diminished days, health status, quality of life, and body mass index) was examined across two levels (users, nonusers) of SEMB. Methods.  A sample of 559 Seattle-Tacoma Internet-using adults was surveyed in 2006. Multivariate general linear models parameterized in a SEMB by respondent gender (2 × 2) factorial design were computed incorporating adjustments for several demographics. Results.  SEMB was reported by 36.7% (n = 205) of the sample. Most SEMB users (78%) were men. After adjusting for demographics, SEMB users, compared to nonusers, reported greater depressive symptoms, poorer quality of life, more mental- and physical-health diminished days, and lower health status. Conclusions.  The findings show that mental- and physical-health indicators vary significantly across SEMB, suggesting the value of incorporating these factors in future research and programmatic endeavors. In particular, the findings suggest that evidence-based sexual health promotion strategies simultaneously addressing individuals' SEMB and their mental health needs might be a useful approach to improve mental health and address preventable sexual health outcomes associated with SEMB. Weaver JB, III, Weaver SS, Mays D, Hopkins GL, Kannenberg W, and McBride D. Mental- and physical-health indicators and sexually explicit media use behavior by adults.

This supports my position. Thank you for the reference.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

Yes, this article is of great interest to me. Thanks for sharing.

I, however, do not concede the view that science say normal use of pornography is harmful, as Bernard keeps claiming.

Let's see.From the Introduction:

Public health professionals have long recognized the potential adverse consequences resulting from using sexually explicit media content for entertainment purposes (i.e., reading and/or watching pornography) as substantial public health concerns [1–4]. Almost four decades

ago, for instance, Calderone [5] speculated that media portrayals of sexually explicit behaviors yielded undesirable consequences for “various members of the community” and stressed the need for public health to address the issue “in behavioral and value terms.” Almost 25 years ago, Koop [3], reporting on his Surgeon General’s Workshop on Pornography and Public Health, concluded that sexually explicit media use stimulates “attitudes and behavior that . . . impair the mental, emotional, and physical health of children and adults and may thus contribute significantly to the morbidity burden in our society.” More recently, such concerns were reaffirmed by Perrin and his colleagues [6], who concluded that “Pornography is . . . a problem with ramifications for the public’s health.”

Although published [7,8] prevalence estimates of sexually explicit media use vary widely (20–65%), the behavior appears widespread among American adults. Evidence from 14 recent surveys in the General Social Survey Series [9], for instance, reveals ...millions of Americans, particularly males, use sexually explicit media.

The health and social consequences of SEMB are evident within an extensive and diverse research literature. Initial studies of adults, for instance, demonstrated that exposure to pornography is capable of altering perceptions and dispositions toward sexuality and relationships formed on its basis [10,11]. Several experimental studies showed that repeated exposure to common, nonviolent pornography significantly shifted sexual norms toward “greater acceptance of pre- and extramarital sex and greater tolerance of nonexclusive sexual access to intimate partners,” [12,13] diminished the “societal significance assigned to the institution of marriage” and perceptions of its “future viability” [13], and changed “values to the effect that men ought to dominate women – and not only in the sexual realm” [13]. These shifts emerged for both male and female research participants, although at times to differing degrees. Controlled investigations have also revealed that exposure to pornography can elevate sexual callousness towards women [14,15], trivialize rape as a criminal offense [16], and facilitate aggressive attitudes and behaviors [17–20]. Corresponding associations between SEMBand risky sexual health attitudes and perceptions are evident in studies of adolescents and emerging adults.

And the conclusion:

Conclusions

Among a sample of Internet-using adults, we found that over one-third (36.7%) reported sexually explicit media use and that individuals indicating engagement in this behavior evidenced higher depressive symptoms, more diminished mental and physical health days per month, a lower health status, and a poorer quality of life. These associations did not vary significantly by gender. Selfreported depressive symptoms, corresponding with prior research on sexual risk behaviors, was most strongly linked with sexually explicit media use. Further exploration of these relationships may contribute to public health efforts targeting behaviors associated with high risks of HIV/STD transmission and/or other preventable sexual health outcomes.

Bernard

Edited August 4, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Okay you two, that is enough. Give it a rest.

OK, Mommy!

See my edit.

Bernard

[keith_brian]

Yes, this article is of great interest to me. Thanks for sharing.

Let's see.From the Introduction:

And the conclusion:

Bernard

And, combined with the quotes I gave earlier ... shows that there is no conclusive evidence either way... correct?

[keith_brian]

For those who use it, it is.

Is this the paper that also says this?

This supports my position. Thank you for the reference.

Bernard

It does not. The authors explicitly rule out the paper supporting a causal relationship in the discussion section.

Learn to read the whole paper, not just the abstract...

[keith_brian]

So is this thread; nevertheless, the authors address the issue of pornography itself in the paper.

For your convenience, I reprint this excerpt from above:

Bernard

First, I don't think anyone on this thread thinks child porn is okay. That's the first type the authors are talking about.

Second, based on the papers I've read since this thread started, I would strongly suspect the second paper is talking about porn containing violent images. But, I can't be sure until I read the second paper.

[keith_brian]

[EDIT TO ADD]

Compare the conclusions of your article (2006) with the one I posted earlier (2008):

http://www.frc.org/s...seudo-sexuality

Things are moving fast in this new area of sexual pathology.

'Nuf said.

Bernard

One of the papers I cited was from 2011. Check that reference.

Nuff said.

[Bernard Gui]

And, combined with the quotes I gave earlier ... shows that there is no conclusive evidence either way... correct?

I'm not sure we are reading the same papers.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

It does not. The authors explicitly rule out the paper supporting a causal relationship in the discussion section.

Learn to read the whole paper, not just the abstract...

??

The health and social consequences of SEMB are evident within an extensive and diverse research literature.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

First, I don't think anyone on this thread thinks child porn is okay.

At what age does one stop being a child?

Bernard

[Calm]

Do you acknowledge that there is a difference between watching a violent movie and committing a murder? If so, I think you can apply a similar answer to the question above.

A more accurate comparison would be completely acting out a murder including having a fake body to 'kill'. If I knew someone who participated in such activities and did so because they got an emotional high off of it, I would be very concern about their mental health.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 03 August 2011 - 10:32 PM, said:

THE INFLUENCE OF MEDIA VIOLENCE ON YOUTH

I trust that answers your question....

And yet, strangely, I know many LDS who are perfectly fine with any level of violence in movies but have no tolerance for any form or sexuality or nudity ... Strange ...

But, this is another topic for another thread. If you'd like to start one, I'd be happy to comment.

A different topic as you say. But salient to the point you raised....

Do you acknowledge that there is a difference between watching a violent movie and committing a murder? If so, I think you can apply a similar answer to the question above.

In other words, the influence is there, and since it is there, pornography, which operates on a very basic level and produces endorphines in the brain that influence is magnified.

[MorningStar]

Is it appropriate for a man or a couple to engage in sexual behavior in a car parked in the street, at work, or in a restroom WITHOUT porn being present? I think the answer to my question should also answer your question.

Also, why hide it from your wife? Maybe she likes to look at porn more than you do. You never know until you ask

Jaybear was saying that it should be hidden from the wife. I'm asking where this behavior is supposed to take place. Doing it at home will not allow him to hide it, so where should he do it? Doing it while the wife is gone will get him caught because she will either come home unexpectedly (like my friend did), if he stays up late she will eventually catch him, he might cause porn pop-ups (the lovely way another friend found out), he'll forget to erase the history and temp files (which would just make her suspicious anyway), etc.

If hiding it becomes the plan rather than ceasing the behavior, you can count on being caught eventually and after years of deception, the wife will feel devastated. It doesn't matter how common it is. Most women's natural response is to feel betrayed by this behavior and it will take a long time to trust again. In some cases, she will never trust her husband again. Why does a man's "natural" urges trump the feelings of his wife, especially when he made a vow to be faithful? What she doesn't know will hurt her. It affects her husband's attitude towards her and she will eventually find out.

[Darth_Bill]

I spoke again with my wife, the professional therapist, about some more details. I suspect that many LDS members wouldn't be too happy with her conclusions and ideas on the matter. Addiction is very rare, and that addiction speaks to an obsesive personality. If it wasn't porn, it would be alcohol, if not alcohol, it would be Facebook...etc. I hope you get the idea.

I think what the church speaks about is the personality issues that MAY come from watching porn. Even the "escalation" to different types of porn isn't that profound. It doesn't lead to violence or more graphic images, necessarily. Most people have a fetish and they stay there. Most do it occasionally, not daily. Some us it as a coping mechanism, and she knew several people that used it that way. She's found that if a marriage has a good level of intimacy, porn usually isn't an issue. She views it more behaviorally than a moral issue, but she's trained that way. The way LDSFS handles some things would probably upset some bishops, but the goals are the same. Just different ways of looking at the same thing.

It was interesting, and I'm more comfortable talking about it with her than hearing it from my bishop.

[Bernard Gui]

I spoke again with my wife, the professional therapist, about some more details. I suspect that many LDS members wouldn't be too happy with her conclusions and ideas on the matter. Addiction is very rare, and that addiction speaks to an obsesive personality. If it wasn't porn, it would be alcohol, if not alcohol, it would be Facebook...etc. I hope you get the idea.

I think what the church speaks about is the personality issues that MAY come from watching porn. Even the "escalation" to different types of porn isn't that profound. It doesn't lead to violence or more graphic images, necessarily. Most people have a fetish and they stay there. Most do it occasionally, not daily. Some us it as a coping mechanism, and she knew several people that used it that way. She's found that if a marriage has a good level of intimacy, porn usually isn't an issue. She views it more behaviorally than a moral issue, but she's trained that way. The way LDSFS handles some things would probably upset some bishops, but the goals are the same. Just different ways of looking at the same thing.

It was interesting, and I'm more comfortable talking about it with her than hearing it from my bishop.

With all due respect, how recent is her information?

Her experience does not reflect mine and others I know

who are trying to help people who have this issue.

Your comments seem contrary to the current literature.

Bernard.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[Questing Beast]

At what age does one stop being a child?

Bernard

Congratulations. You've just advocated for pedophiles. You seem to not know that their perspective on sexual "play" is the sooner the better. There is no practical difference between a child and an adult where pleasure is compared. They contend that outmoded thinking, i.e. religious traditions, continue to misinform: that sex is indeed merely a "plaything" and has nothing at all to do with morals.

The root argument for or against ANY sexual expression can be advocated for or decried using the very same criteria. And thus we see the violence being done to the "system"; i.e. our laws, religiously based as they largely are, are under attack by irreligious reasoning.

Any and all inroads being made upon the laws to liberalize them will include sexual expressions in their myriad forms; including children. Get ready. It is already a bumpy ride and is going to get downright violent. And nobody knows where this is going....

[Bernard Gui]

Congratulations. You've just advocated for pedophiles.

You know that is not true. I ask you to retract this accusation.

My point is that pornography involving children is

the vilest evil, but at what point in a person's life does it become

acceptable?

Bernard

[Calm]

Jaybear was saying that it should be hidden from the wife. I'm asking where this behavior is supposed to take place. Doing it at home will not allow him to hide it, so where should he do it? Doing it while the wife is gone will get him caught because she will either come home unexpectedly (like my friend did), if he stays up late she will eventually catch him, he might cause porn pop-ups (the lovely way another friend found out), he'll forget to erase the history and temp files (which would just make her suspicious anyway), etc.

If hiding it becomes the plan rather than ceasing the behavior, you can count on being caught eventually and after years of deception, the wife will feel devastated. It doesn't matter how common it is. Most women's natural response is to feel betrayed by this behavior and it will take a long time to trust again. In some cases, she will never trust her husband again. Why does a man's "natural" urges trump the feelings of his wife, especially when he made a vow to be faithful? What she doesn't know will hurt her. It affects her husband's attitude towards her and she will eventually find out.

I get the impression that those who feel porn is a healthy outlet would say that it is the wife's issue, not the husband and she is the one who needs to change her feelings of betrayal over the fact her husband prefers imagining sexual relationships with imaginary women (or whatever) to interacting with her or the family, even to the point to allowing a virtual 'threesome' to occur by accepting porn as part of their own sexual relationship.

The idea that porn is some passive sexual fantasy that should make it nonoffensive to the spouse ignores the fact that the porn user generally actively seeks out porn and arranges his/her life so as to be able to participate in it. This would be similar not to a man who is attracted to a woman he just happens to encounter as he walks down the street, but more in line with a man who frequents a strip joint.

Edited August 4, 2011 by calmoriah

[Calm]

She's found that if a marriage has a good level of intimacy, porn usually isn't an issue.

I am curious if she finds this is the case even with those who developed using porn as a coping mechanism prior to marriage. Also, does she see porn as a healthy coping mechanism or does she encourage her clients to try and find a more effective replacement?

The problem I see with accepting occasional usage of anything that can be highly destructive is that behaviourally speaking that can be one of the hardest habits to break, there is just enough reward involved to keep the behaviour in place for a very long time even when the benefits are nonexistent for most of the time.

[keith_brian]

I'm not sure we are reading the same papers.

Bernard

I took direct quotations from the paper...