No Death Before The Fall

[Jeff K.]

Not everything science decrees can be tested and verified.

[Craig Paxton]

Not everything science decrees can be tested and verified.

Very true....String theory certainly comes to mind...and like all theories...with time it will either become confirmed and accepted as reality...or rejected as nonsense based on whether or not it stands up to rigorous testing, scrutiny, examination and ultimately evidence.

[Jeff K.]

You have just described an aspect of faith. Certainly not scientific method

[cdowis]

However, I'm sure there must be some hole in this theory. Thanks to Joseph Smith, we fortunately know exactly where the Garden of Eden was. So it is possible to test whether or not this theory holds up to scrutiny. For example if Eden was somehow protected from what was going on in the rest of the world, we should not be able to find any evidence that it was once covered or impacted by the glacial age or subject the same exact influences that the rest of the world experienced. But that is not what we find…in fact... we do find evidence that Eden (Missouri) experienced the same exact geological, evolutionary and glacial influences as the rest of the world. There is nothing to suggest that Eden was somehow sealed off from the same exact events that impacted the rest of the world during the past 4.5 billion years.

The Garden of Eden was created on the fifth day, when Adam was organized. So, the entire earth was under the creation process, which included death, and I suggest that it was only until the fifth day that process ceased, and Adam appeared on the scene in the Garden where there was no death.

As an aside, I find it as an interesting question what boundary Adam crossed when he left the Garden and passed into the world.

Edited July 21, 2011 by cdowis

[thesometimesaint]

Craig Paxton:

However useful science is it is but one explanation of reality. There are others.

[cdowis]

Craig Paxton:

However useful science is it is but one explanation of reality. There are others.

Quantum mechanics presents an interesting "alternative" view of reality.

[thesometimesaint]

cdowis:

True, just depends on how far down that rabbit hole you want to go.

[Jeff K.]

Pill pusher.

[thesometimesaint]

Jeff K.:

Given that I used to give psychoactive drugs. That IS funny. :rofl:

[Senator]

And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were AFTER they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

How do you define "remaining forever, and having no end", which is referring to the created state of all things?

I think you have this verse in an arm-bar forcing a tappout.

[Sevenbak]

This is perhaps the best answer I've heard from the believing camp....it allows for how things really are while at the same time provides a way for there to have been a Missouri Eden hidden under some protective bubble while the rest of the earth went through its evolutionary/geological time table.

However, I'm sure there must be some hole in this theory. Thanks to Joseph Smith, we fortunately know exactly where the Garden of Eden was. So it is possible to test whether or not this theory holds up to scrutiny. For example if Eden was somehow protected from what was going on in the rest of the world, we should not be able to find any evidence that it was once covered or impacted by the glacial age or subject the same exact influences that the rest of the world experienced. But that is not what we find…in fact... we do find evidence that Eden (Missouri) experienced the same exact geological, evolutionary and glacial influences as the rest of the world. There is nothing to suggest that Eden was somehow sealed off from the same exact events that impacted the rest of the world during the past 4.5 billion years.

Ah, but you're putting all your eggs into one geological-planet-traveling basket.

I'm one who also believes, as the Church teaches, that there was a literal global flood, dividing of the continents in the days of Peleg, and great changing of the land in N. America during Christ's crucifixion.

When the waters receded from off this land, it did become a choice land, and the future home of the New Jerusalem, near where the Garden of Eden was. I still hold that view, no matter what modern science tells me.

[thesometimesaint]

Sevenbak:

We are free to believe or not believe as is our own choice.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Global_or_local_Flood#endnote_jeffrey3

The belief that the flood was either global or local does not constitute a critical part of Latter-day Saint theology.[6] Whether the flood was global or local, we believe that the prophet Noah existed, that he built an ark, and that he and his family survived the deluge.

[ERMD]

What I was trying to say was that reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined.

Quantum mechanics will make your head hurt.

We have no clue as to how long the creative process took, nor how long Adam was in the garden before the fall, nor the state of creation outside the garden. I find this passage from Abraham 4 interesting:

17And the Gods set them in the expanse of the heavens, to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to cause to divide the light from the darkness.

18And the Gods watched those things which they had ordered until they obeyed.

19And it came to pass that it was from evening until morning that it was night; and it came to pass that it was from morning until evening that it was day; and it was the fourth time.

20And the Gods said: Let us prepare the waters to bring forth abundantly the moving creatures that have life; and the fowl, that they may fly above the earth in the open expanse of heaven.

21And the Gods prepared the waters that they might bring forth great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters were to bring forth abundantly after their kind; and every winged fowl after their kind. And the Gods saw that they would be obeyed, and that their plan was good.

How much time passed "until they obeyed" or until the "Gods saw that they would be obeyed" is an unknown.

[Sevenbak]

Sevenbak:

We are free to believe or not believe as is our own choice.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Global_or_local_Flood#endnote_jeffrey3

The belief that the flood was either global or local does not constitute a critical part of Latter-day Saint theology.[6] Whether the flood was global or local, we believe that the prophet Noah existed, that he built an ark, and that he and his family survived the deluge.

Correct, but it answers the OP, at least in my understanding. The fact that it's in the manuals doesn't hurt either, so I believe it helps answer lots of questions that can sometimes run contrary to modern thinking.

Tsall good.

[cinepro]

This is a topic in which Mormons and other Christians get confused. We assume that the world took 6,000 years to create. Then another 1,000 added on for rest. Immediately after this (Another assumption) Adam and Eve were placed on the Earth in the Garden of Eden.

We do not know what was going on outside the Garden of Eden and we have no idea how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden. The Earth is at least 6,000 years old, but could also be billions or trillions of years old. The time period bewteen the creation and the fall is not known. You have to figure that if Adam and Eve were in close contact with God, then it probably took a very long time for Satan to tempt them successfully.

If it was billions of years, then there were very possibly dinosaurs, meteors, the Grand Canyon was formed, Creatures lived and became extinct, Fossels were created, etc.

Adam and Eve were the first humans.

Science and religion are actually consistent with each other on this concept.

Of course there is the typical seminary teacher concept that all of the fossels are left over materials from other worlds that were used to create this world. Someday we will know.

Actually, the way the Church presents the situation is that the Earth was "created" in a paradisical or Terrestrial state with no death for any humans, plants or animals.

Then, at some point, Adam and Eve were placed into the Garden of Eden. After an indeterminate amount of time, Adam "fell", at which point physical death entered the world and now humans, plants and animals could physically "die" (i.e. their spirits could leave their mortal bodies). This began the "temporal age" of the Earth, and this period of the Earth's existence will last ~6,000 years.

So we're not discussing the time period required to "create" the Earth, but instead the time period since "physical death" has entered the Earth at the Fall of Adam.

While this doctrine has been taught clearly and consistently by the Church for the last 180 years, it was perhaps taught most clearly by Elder McConkie in his last conference address:

As we read, ponder, and pray, there will come into our minds a view of the three gardens of God—the Garden of Eden, the Garden of Gethsemane, and the Garden of the Empty Tomb where Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene.

In Eden we will see all things created in a paradisiacal state—without death, without procreation, without probationary experiences.

We will come to know that such a creation, now unknown to man, was the only way to provide for the Fall.

We will then see Adam and Eve, the first man and the first woman, step down from their state of immortal and paradisiacal glory to become the first mortal flesh on earth.

Mortality, including as it does procreation and death, will enter the world. And because of transgression a probationary estate of trial and testing will begin.

The Church has rarely addressed how this doctrine can be reconciled with the traditional "scientific" view of death (and humans) having lived on the Earth long before ~4,000 BC. This article is the most direct I've seen:

The Gospel and the Scientific View: How Earth Came to Be

What is the “scientific” view of our early world that so dominates our age? How did it come to be? Where does it seem to cause challenges for someone who loves and believes the sacred texts that recount events of that same early world? In order to better orient ourselves and assist us in helping others and our children, it may be helpful to examine certain aspects of the development of scientific thought, including the differences between the purely naturalistic explanations and those which involve the actions of God as part of the picture. Also, we will look at the further understanding available to us through modern-day revelation and the gospel context.

[cinepro]

Sevenbak:

We are free to believe or not believe as is our own choice.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Global_or_local_Flood#endnote_jeffrey3

The belief that the flood was either global or local does not constitute a critical part of Latter-day Saint theology.[6] Whether the flood was global or local, we believe that the prophet Noah existed, that he built an ark, and that he and his family survived the deluge.

Although some would claim the story of Noah is somewhat diminished if, as an alternative, he could have just taken his family into the foothills to avoid the flood, or emigrated to a neighboring country and joined with people there.

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

A flood needn't be global to cause a lot of damage. That is why we warn people to get out of the way when big hurricanes are coming. I don't believe that Noah had access to weather satellites. So I believe he was dependent on God. The big question to me is not the size of the flood, but whether I'd have gotten on the boat.

[Craig Paxton]

Ah, but you're putting all your eggs into one geological-planet-traveling basket.

I'm one who also believes, as the Church teaches, that there was a literal global flood, dividing of the continents in the days of Peleg, and great changing of the land in N. America during Christ's crucifixion.

When the waters receded from off this land, it did become a choice land, and the future home of the New Jerusalem, near where the Garden of Eden was. I still hold that view, no matter what modern science tells me.

Oh boy don't even get me started on the universal flood...Although I will say that you have alot in common with Bruce R. McConkie...he taught that the geological processes that created such geological wonders as the Grand Canyon took place over weeks rather than millions of years...now that is just plain bizaar.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Craig Paxton

[blackstrap]

Further on fossils. A fossil is considered to be a rare occurance.The animal must be buried very quickly,within hours not years.So that means either a landslide or a water/mud flow. Fossilization has been shown to take as little as 50 years to accomplish. There are fossils of,I believe,female ichthyosaurs buried in the process of giving birth the baby only partially born.Try to imagine the scenario in which a marine reptile is overcome and spontaneously goes into the birthing process in an attempt to give the baby a chance to avoid a surprise peril. Must have been a VERY turbulent ocean,for some reason.

Then we come to the dating of fossils. Fossils are dated based on the geologic layers that they are found in. The geologic layers have dates that were assigned based on...wait for it...the fossils found in them. Now I know that the rocks have been given ages also based on the radiometric measure of different isotopes but the values obtained through these methods were calibrated based on...the timelines required to produce the evolutionary tree,or bush,or whatever.All such dating methods require assumptions which cannot be verified mainly because the situation is not repeatable.The RATE project,if nothing else,has exposed flaws in many dating methods and has presented alternative methods.

As for myself, the only age I worry about is mine.The advantage is that each day I get closer to the time when,hopefully, I will learn some of the secrets of the universe.I will return and report(if allowed)

[Flyonthewall]

There is the possibility that this earth was created from a world that had already passed away. All the geological formations and fossils that are millions of years old would be a product of a bygone world.

Kind of like moving into a renovated house.

[Rivers]

The church has not always taught that there was no death before the fall. Several past church leaders including Elder Talmage did not believe there was no death before the fall. The David O. Mckay presidency declared that the church was neutral on this topic.

Unfortunately Bruce R. McConkie and JSF's young earth creationist ideas prevailed and are believed by most members of the church. Most of the youth in the church are being taught young earth creationism in seminary and institute.

I think the only way to reconcile young earth creationism and reality is to throw science and reality out the window. I also believed in the young earth stuff but I was introduced to alternate interpretations of the creation.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Rivers

[Rivers]

There is the possibility that this earth was created from a world that had already passed away. All the geological formations and fossils that are millions of years old would be a product of a bygone world.

Kind of like moving into a renovated house.

There is way too much order in the fossil record for that to be an explanation.

[mfbukowski]

As a young missionary I taught investigators that prior to the Fall of Adam there was no death in the world. This concept came directly from the missionary discussions...yet I never had any investigator even question this belief. If I taught this concept today I would be laughed out of every home.

Put in simple terms, this concept makes some sense IF Adam was a real human being who left his garden kingdom some 6,000 years ago. For if this did in fact take place...of course there would not have been death since it was Adam who through his disobedience to God brought upon us all a temporal existence and introduced death.

But reality does not support this belief...at least not as it is taught or was taught by the church. Plus science has come a long way since I was a missionary some 30 years ago...anyone who claims a belief in a young earth is not taken seriously nor is anyone who suggests that there was no death prior to 6,000 years ago.

Despite this fact...there still remain members of the church both believe and are taught that there was no death prior to the fall some 6,000 years ago.

So I have two questions.

Is there anyone here who holds to a belief of no death prior to the fall (which according to the LDS Biblical chronology took place some 6,000 years ago)

If you do hold to this belief...how do you reconcile it with reality ie (fossil record)

I hate to admit that I was one of those members who actually believed that the fossils were matter brought from other planets...Oh I was soooooo nieve and trusting then...

Well I feel I must say something, though I doubt you will understand it if you are as philosophically naive as you appear. If you want nine million references to philosophers for what I say, I can do that, but it will be quite boring.

We live in a world which is really made of words and human experiences.

There is no point in counting something as "real" unless we can talk about it.

The bottom line is that there could be no "death"- ie: a human understanding of the cessation of life- the meaning of "death" in a human context - until language.

Further, there could be no concept of "sin" until there was a human context for right and wrong- morality.

A tiger might eat a person, but we don't call it "murder" because the tiger is not operating in a human context and doesn't understand the human context of "death". So before language, we had living organisms recycling themselves in a carbon cycle- but there was no "death".

No language, no moral human context, no murder, no sin, no trees or rocks or anything- just unexperienced "stuff" without human context

Edited July 22, 2011 by mfbukowski

[Jeff K.]

Oh boy don't even get me started on the universal flood...Although I will say that you have alot in common with Bruce R. McConkie...he taught that the geological processes that created such geological wonders as the Grand Canyon took place over weeks rather than millions of years...now that is just plain bizaar.

While my opinion of Noah's flood is regional, not global, I was watching a show last night regarding the formation of a canyon that happened due to a great post glacial flood in which the canyon and erosion formed over a 48 hour to six week period. I can't find the reference off hand, but it indicates large rock or erosion formations can indeed happen over a short, very short period of time.

[Jeff K.]

Unfortunately Bruce R. McConkie and JSF's young earth creationist ideas prevailed and are believed by most members of the church. Most of the youth in the church are being taught young earth creationism in seminary and institute.

Having taught seminary I would say the assertion that pure creationism is being taught in seminary is a false one. I just asked my daughter in institute concerning the matter and she replied her teacher had been asked something similar last year and he stated that there is no doctrine regarding how specifically the earth was formed or what time frame was involved. I live in a relatively conservative stake too.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Jeff K.