"Praise To The Man"

[Storm Rider]

Thank you.

I am around enough Mormons to know that you don't think Joseph Smith is a God and to understand why you love him and cherish him, although I don't share the sentiment.

It is interesting when my Cathoic friends talk about Mary; my response/feelings are similar to yours. I think I can understand their feelings and respect their love of her, but I simply don't share in those feelings.

Most anti-literature against any church is so often full of attempts to create an emotional response in readers. If they can shut down the mind and get a visceral reaction, then it is easier to achieve their goal. Evangelicals primarily use this method, but other groups are not immune.

[Rob Bowman]

Storm Rider,

You wrote:

Most anti-literature against any church is so often full of attempts to create an emotional response in readers. If they can shut down the mind and get a visceral reaction, then it is easier to achieve their goal. Evangelicals primarily use this method, but other groups are not immune.

This is sheer gall. In this thread, I, an evangelical, have calmly articulated a carefully reasoned argument--an attempt to engage people's minds, not their emotions. The responses from Mormons here have been largely desperate attempts at diversion, either by objecting to a caricature of my argument (e.g., claiming that I was arguing that Mormons worship Joseph Smith or that they elevate him above Jesus Christ) or by other diversionary claims, such as asserting without any explanation that my argument is much ado about nothing. There may be people here trying to shut down others' minds, but I am not one of them.

[CV75]

meant as a reply

Edited July 12, 2011 by CV75

[CV75]

The responses from Mormons here have been largely desperate attempts at diversion

I think the central message in the responses is: Using language that honors God as God, when used in a hymn to honor a man as a man, does not infringe on the exclusive religious devotion due to God.

[Storm Rider]

Storm Rider,

You wrote:

This is sheer gall. In this thread, I, an evangelical, have calmly articulated a carefully reasoned argument--an attempt to engage people's minds, not their emotions. The responses from Mormons here have been largely desperate attempts at diversion, either by objecting to a caricature of my argument (e.g., claiming that I was arguing that Mormons worship Joseph Smith or that they elevate him above Jesus Christ) or by other diversionary claims, such as asserting without any explanation that my argument is much ado about nothing. There may be people here trying to shut down others' minds, but I am not one of them.

Desperate? I guess that is your perception, I still think this is just such a silly topic. Catholics have a much better handle on this kind of topic than your position. The entire topic is only being discussed BECAUSE it is meant to create a visceral reaction. In reality it is a red herring. You know as well as I do that LDS do not worship Joseph Smith. Knowing that what is the use of the topic? That is right, to mislead readers with gibberish in an attempt to shut their minds down so that they will believe any sensational thing anti-literature comes up with.

I reject ALL anti-literature against any church because of this same strategy. So seldom is there a decent discussion from beginning to end without this strategy coming to the fore.

[urroner]

Storm Rider,

You wrote:

This is sheer gall. In this thread, I, an evangelical, have calmly articulated a carefully reasoned argument--an attempt to engage people's minds, not their emotions. The responses from Mormons here have been largely desperate attempts at diversion, either by objecting to a caricature of my argument (e.g., claiming that I was arguing that Mormons worship Joseph Smith or that they elevate him above Jesus Christ) or by other diversionary claims, such as asserting without any explanation that my argument is much ado about nothing. There may be people here trying to shut down others' minds, but I am not one of them.

Rob, is it not possible that some of us here see your argument as being frivolous and trite and, if we do see it as such, would you that we just shut up about it and not say anything?

[Rob Bowman]

All,

I'm not interested in arguing further about the nature of my argument or of the various replies to it. I'm satisfied that my point has been made, however trivial some of you may find it. Let us say that our differences over the importance of the issue are another example of the differences between evangelicalism and Mormonism.

[Vance]

So, Bowman,

You have never heard an Evangelical equate "the word of God" with "the Word of God" and visa verse?

[HeatherAnn]

I’d like to suggest looking at the LDS hymn Praise to the Man in a different way. This hymn does not simply praise Joseph Smith, though that is itself surprising. It praises Smith in language that the Bible typically and in most cases exclusively reserves for God and Christ:

Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!

“I…will sing praise to the name of the Lord [Jehovah] most high” (Ps. 7:17; cf. 9:2; 30:12; 104:33; etc.).

Jesus anointed that Prophet and Seer. Blessed to open the last dispensation Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

“That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ” (Eph. 1:10).

“God, who…spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son” (Heb. 1:1-2).

“Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him” (Ps. 72:11, of the king of Israel as a type of Christ).

“I will extol thee, my God, O king, and I will bless thy name for ever and ever” (Ps. 145:1).

“Behold, my servant [Christ] shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high” (Is. 52:13).

Praise to his mem’ry, he died as a martyr; Honored and blest be his ever great name!

“Blessed be thy glorious name…” (Neh. 9:5).

“Sing forth the honour of his name” (Ps. 66:2).

“Blessed be his glorious name forever” (Ps. 72:19).

“Let them praise thy great and terrible name” (Ps. 99:3).

Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins, Plead unto heav’n while the earth lauds his fame.

“And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven” (Col. 1:20).

“Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people” (Rom. 15:11).

Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.

“Great is the glory of the Lord” (Ps. 138:5).

“…another priest [Jesus], Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life…. But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood…. the Son, who is consecrated for evermore” (Heb. 7:15, 24, 28).

Ever and ever the keys he will hold.

“…behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of [Hades] and of death” (Rev. 1:18).

Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom, Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

“These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness…” (Rev. 3:14).

“…the Son of Man coming in his kingdom” (Matt. 16:28).

“…and of his kingdom there shall be no end” (Luke 1:33).

“Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom” (Luke 23:42).

Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven; Earth must atone for the blood of that man.

“But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God” (Heb. 10:12).

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ” (Eph. 1:3).

Wake up the world for the conflict of justice. Millions shall know “Brother Joseph” again.

“…all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer” (Is. 49:26).

Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!

“For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand” (Acts 2:34).

Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.

“Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?” (Ps. 2:1).

Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren; Death cannot conquer the hero again.

“Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him” (Rom. 6:9).

There is no precedent in the Bible for a hymn of praise to any man other than the man who was God incarnate, Jesus Christ (Eph. 5:19; Rev. 5:9-10). The Psalms contain scant references to Abraham (Ps. 47:9; 105:6, 89, 42) and Moses (Ps. 77:20; 90 title; 99:6; 103:7; 105:26; 106:16, 23, 32), none of which in any way praise or honor them. The Psalms contain a few more references to David, not counting the many titles naming him as the author (Ps. 18:50; 78:70; 89:3, 20, 35, 49; 122:5; 132:10, 11, 17; 144:10). Again, they say nothing in praise of David or even speak of any of his accomplishments. The Psalms do prophecy that God will exalt David or the descendant of David, who represents the Messiah, Jesus (e.g., Ps. 72:11; 89:24). In this light, the unabashed praising of Joseph Smith using honorific language that the Bible normally and in most cases exclusively uses for Deity is quite shocking. This argument cannot be overturned by picking out a phrase or two and showing that they might be used in other contexts; it is the fact that such an abundance of biblical language for honoring God is brought together in this context of a hymn explicitly written in praise to Joseph that must be addressed.

My conclusion here is not that Mormons elevate Joseph above Jesus, or that they make Joseph equal to Jesus, or that they "worship" Joseph. I agree that the hymn clearly distinguishes between Joseph and God. My conclusion is that the glorification of Joseph Smith in Mormon religion as attested by this hymn infringes on the exclusive religious devotion due to God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) alone.

I hadn't considered the song like that before, although I have wondered sometimes why worship time is spent focusing on Joseph & church history rather than God, Christ & spirituality.

Personally, I like the tune of the song... & have helped my kids learn the "Books of the New Testament" by singing that primary song with the same tune. It has a nice spirit.

Yet, you make a good point about references with those same phrases & words being used to praise God & Christ. A song of dedication could be fine as an extra LDS song, but not really appropriate to sing during worship, as it is, being in the Hymn Book.

This also reminds me & may explain why God gave this as the 1st of the 10 commandments... "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." - Exodus 20

It's a challenge!

ANYTHING or ANYONE we prioritize above God, is not much different than worshiping the golden calf.

Nobody will admit to worshiping, nor would they pray to their boat, their hero, or their tropheys...lol... yet praising them in the place of God is pretty much the same thing.

[Deborah]

yet praising them in the place of God is pretty much the same thing.

Seriously? You think that because we sing this song we are praising Joseph above God and Christ. Do you know how rarely it's even sung, and usually around the time of JS's birth?

[bluebell]

I hadn't considered the song like that before, although I have wondered sometimes why worship time is spent focusing on Joseph & church history rather than God, Christ & spirituality.

Personally, I like the tune of the song... & have helped my kids learn the "Books of the New Testament" by singing that primary song with the same tune. It has a nice spirit.

Yet, you make a good point about references with those same phrases & words being used to praise God & Christ. A song of dedication could be fine as an extra LDS song, but not really appropriate to sing during worship, as it is, being in the Hymn Book.

This also reminds me & may explain why God gave this as the 1st of the 10 commandments... "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." - Exodus 20

It's a challenge!

ANYTHING or ANYONE we prioritize above God, is not much different than worshiping the golden calf.

Nobody will admit to worshiping, nor would they pray to their boat, their hero, or their tropheys...lol... yet praising them in the place of God is pretty much the same thing.

HeatherAnn,

Given your take on the idea that only hymns focused soley upon God and Christ should be sung during sacrament meeting, i'd love to hear your thoughts about the star spangled banner, america the beautiful, Love at Home, ring out wild bells, etc., being in the hymn book and being sung during sacrament meeting.

Are those, in your opinion, inappropriate as well?

[Ares]

All,

I'm not interested in arguing further about the nature of my argument or of the various replies to it. I'm satisfied that my point has been made, however trivial some of you may find it. Let us say that our differences over the importance of the issue are another example of the differences between evangelicalism and Mormonism.

Rob,

If all you are doing here is making points don't bother. Anything you post will be open to discussion that includes agreement and disagreement.

[Bernard Gui]

All,

I'm not interested in arguing further about the nature of my argument or of the various replies to it. I'm satisfied that my point has been made, however trivial some of you may find it. Let us say that our differences over the importance of the issue are another example of the differences between evangelicalism and Mormonism.

Once in a while we should also dwell on the similarities, few they might be. Straining to create

more rifts is not productive or enlightening.

Long live the difference!

Bernard

[Storm Rider]

Once in a while we should also dwell on the similarities, few they might be. Straining to create

more rifts is not productive or enlightening.

Long live the difference!

Bernard

When the point in common is Jesus Christ, Son of God, Mediator, Savior, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, I know of not greater commonality. I know critics quickly toss that similarity away thinking that belief in the Trinity is of such grand importance that LDS belief in Jesus Chrsit is of no value; however, it is not appropriate when LDS toss the belief of others in Jesus Christ aside. Doctrines do not save; belief in Jesus Christ is the first step to entering the Kingdom of God.

[Robert F. Smith]

There is no precedent in the Bible for a hymn of praise to any man other than the man who was God incarnate, Jesus Christ (Eph. 5:19; Rev. 5:9-10). The Psalms contain scant references to Abraham (Ps. 47:9; 105:6, 89, 42) and Moses (Ps. 77:20; 90 title; 99:6; 103:7; 105:26; 106:16, 23, 32), none of which in any way praise or honor them. The Psalms contain a few more references to David, not counting the many titles naming him as the author (Ps. 18:50; 78:70; 89:3, 20, 35, 49; 122:5; 132:10, 11, 17; 144:10). Again, they say nothing in praise of David or even speak of any of his accomplishments. The Psalms do prophecy that God will exalt David or the descendant of David, who represents the Messiah, Jesus (e.g., Ps. 72:11; 89:24). In this light, the unabashed praising of Joseph Smith using honorific language that the Bible normally and in most cases exclusively uses for Deity is quite shocking. This argument cannot be overturned by picking out a phrase or two and showing that they might be used in other contexts; it is the fact that such an abundance of biblical language for honoring God is brought together in this context of a hymn explicitly written in praise to Joseph that must be addressed.

My conclusion here is not that Mormons elevate Joseph above Jesus, or that they make Joseph equal to Jesus, or that they "worship" Joseph. I agree that the hymn clearly distinguishes between Joseph and God. My conclusion is that the glorification of Joseph Smith in Mormon religion as attested by this hymn infringes on the exclusive religious devotion due to God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) alone.

You have repeatedly made these absolutist claims in this thread, and I effectively falsified your claims in my post #27, as follows:

"Hail Mary! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" (Luke 1:42), as well as Gabriel's annunciation to her: "Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women" (Luke 1:28)

Just so Jesus blesses certain types of people in his Beatitudes (Matt 5)

Judah is to be praised by his brethren in Gen 49:8 (based on the etymology of his name from

hodah

, as in Gen 29:35)

Absalom was praised for his beauty in II Sam 14:25 (from

hallal

)

men ought to praise one another, and children and the husband of a woman ought to praise her (Prov 27:2,21, 31:28, 31 all with

hallal

)

Paul praises the brethren for being observant (I Cor 11:2 with

epaineo

)

Was Brother Joseph worthy of praise?

God, his angels, and prophets have apparently not bought into your priggish assertions about who is and is not to be praised. You are of course free to abuse the text of the Bible, and to ignore anything contrary to your a priori notions -- a common practice among evangelicals.

Perhaps you don't see how self-contradictory your own phraseology is: "normally and in most cases exclusively" -- "normally" and "in most cases" cannot be "exclusive." What is actually "shocking" is your effort to seek occasion against the Mormons without sufficient justification.

Your evangelical sensibilities may be offended by praise of Joseph Smith, but is it really a matter of such moment that you must make a major issue of it? Perhaps if Mormons prayed for intercession of Joseph on their behalf, you could compare that with your criticism of Catholic use of Ave Maria to seek her intercession. Are these things really comparable? Isn't there a need for restraint and honesty in such a critique?

Edited July 16, 2011 by Robert F. Smith

[David Bokovoy]

I’d like to suggest looking at the LDS hymn Praise to the Man in a different way. This hymn does not simply praise Joseph Smith, though that is itself surprising. It praises Smith in language that the Bible typically and in most cases exclusively reserves for God and Christ…

There is no precedent in the Bible for a hymn of praise to any man other than the man who was God incarnate, Jesus Christ

Hello Rob,

This does not mean that I've returned to message board activity, but someone drew my attention to your post and I felt a desire to respond. I believe that your criticism overlooks a variety of biblical texts, including the royal psalms of praise sung to mortal kings. Not only do these biblical hymns praise Israelite kings with language that the Bible typically and in most cases exclusively reserves for God and Christ, but Psalm 45 goes so far in its “praise to the man,” as to specifically call the Israelite king an elohim or “god.”

Note the biblical royal hymn of praise sung to a mortal Israelite king in Psalm 72:

Psalm 72:8-9: “He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust" (vv. 8-9)

Praise to the Man: “Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain”

Psalm 72:11: “Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him”

Praise to the Man: “Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.”

Psalm 72: 17: “His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed”

Praise to the Man: “Honored and blest be his ever great name!”

Yet this biblical psalm “praising the man” pales in comparison to the praise sung to the Israelite mortal king in Psalm 45:

“Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.” (v. 4)

Significantly, elsewhere in the Bible, the terms “glory” and “majesty” appear as divine attributes specifically depicting God:

“Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty (same Hebrew words) (Psalm 104:1)

Moreover, Psalm 45 goes even further in its praise by explicitly calling the Israelite king an elohim, i.e. “god.”

“Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore O God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows” (Psalm 45:6-7)

So if anything, the LDS hymn “Praise to the Man” directly parallels the biblical pattern of a royal psalm, yet in terms of the Prophet Joseph Smith, the LDS hymn softens the biblical precedent for the apotheosis of the king.

Best,

--DB

Edited July 16, 2011 by David Bokovoy

[Scott Lloyd]

Hello Rob,

This does not mean that I've returned to message board activity, but someone drew my attention to your post and I felt a desire to respond. I believe that your criticism overlooks a variety of biblical texts, including the royal psalms of praise sung to mortal kings. Not only do these biblical hymns praise Israelite kings with language that the Bible typically and in most cases exclusively reserves for God and Christ, but Psalm 45 goes so far in its “praise to the man,” as to specifically call the Israelite king an elohim or “god.”

Note the biblical royal hymn of praise sung to a mortal Israelite king in Psalm 72:

Psalm 72:8-9: “He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust" (vv. 8-9)

Praise to the Man: “Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain”

Psalm 72:11: “Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him”

Praise to the Man: “Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.”

Psalm 72: 17: “His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed”

Praise to the Man: “Honored and blest be his ever great name!”

Yet this biblical psalm “praising the man” pales in comparison to the praise sung to the Israelite mortal king in Psalm 45:

“Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.” (v. 4)

Significantly, elsewhere in the Bible, the terms “glory” and “majesty” appear as divine attributes specifically depicting God:

“Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty (same Hebrew words) (Psalm 104:1)

Moreover, Psalm 45 goes even further in its praise by explicitly calling the Israelite king an elohim, i.e. “god.”

“Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore O God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows” (Psalm 45:6-7)

So if anything, the LDS hymn “Praise to the Man” directly parallels the biblical pattern of a royal psalm, yet in terms of the Prophet Joseph Smith, the LDS hymn softens the biblical precedent for the apotheosis of the king.

Best,

--DB

Brilliant, David.

And it's nice to see you back on the board, even if only temporarily.

[Scott Lloyd]

I hadn't considered the song like that before, although I have wondered sometimes why worship time is spent focusing on Joseph & church history rather than God, Christ & spirituality.

Heather Ann, in response to this, I will post the same link that I did on the other thread, the one with the same title as this one. It is to an editorial I wrote that was published on Saturday.

Bottom line: I believe claims such as the one you make here are groundless. As I expressed in the editorial, considering that the worship of Christ underpins all our doctrine and teaching, we spend virtually all our time at church talking about Christ.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[Rob Bowman]

Robert:

You wrote (bold emphasis mine):

You have repeatedly made these absolutist claims in this thread, and I effectively falsified your claims in my post #27, as follows:

"Hail Mary! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" (Luke 1:42), as well as Gabriel's annunciation to her: "Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee:

blessed

art thou among women" (Luke 1:28)

Just so Jesus

blesses

certain types of people in his Beatitudes (Matt 5)

Judah is to be

praised

by his brethren in Gen 49:8 (based on the etymology of his name from

hodah

, as in Gen 29:35)

Absalom was

praised

for his beauty in II Sam 14:25 (from

hallal

)

men ought to

praise

one another, and children and the husband of a woman ought to

praise

her (Prov 27:2,21, 31:28, 31 all with

hallal

)

Paul

praises

the brethren for being observant (I Cor 11:2 with

epaineo

)

Was Brother Joseph worthy of

praise

?

God, his angels, and prophets have apparently not bought into your priggish assertions about who is and is not to be praised. You are of course free to abuse the text of the Bible, and to ignore anything contrary to your a priori notions -- a common practice among evangelicals.

Perhaps you don't see how self-contradictory your own phraseology is: "normally and in most cases exclusively" -- "normally" and "in most cases" cannot be "exclusive." What is actually "shocking" is your effort to seek occasion against the Mormons without sufficient justification.

Your evangelical sensibilities may be offended by praise of Joseph Smith, but is it really a matter of such moment that you must make a major issue of it? Perhaps if Mormons prayed for intercession of Joseph on their behalf, you could compare that with your criticism of Catholic use of Ave Maria to seek her intercession. Are these things really comparable? Isn't there a need for restraint and honesty in such a critique?

Robert, I have read other posts of yours and know you to be a highly intelligent, well educated man. Surely someone of your obvious intellectual gifts can understand the point I have made repeatedly that the problem as I see it is NOT that Mormons "praise" Joseph Smith, but the WAY in which they praise him in the particular hymn under discussion. I have already told you this in an earlier post (#28). I do not understand why you are ignoring that point.

Also, I didn't compare the hymn "Praise to the Man" to the Ave Maria. Deborah did (post #13), and you endorsed her comparison (post #27). In response, I stated (post #28) that I had no objections to the statements made in Luke 1 about Mary that are used in the Ave Maria, but that I do have a problem with the Ave Maria itself -- but at no time did I compare the Ave Maria to the LDS hymn "Praise to the Man." You and Deborah did that, not I.

[Rob Bowman]

David,

The passages you quoted in Psalms 45 and 72 refer, according to the New Testament, to the future son of David, the Messiah Jesus! This isn't a good argument to establish precedent for a hymn praising Joseph Smith.

[Storm Rider]

Robert:

You wrote (bold emphasis mine):

Robert, I have read other posts of yours and know you to be a highly intelligent, well educated man. Surely someone of your obvious intellectual gifts can understand the point I have made repeatedly that the problem as I see it is NOT that Mormons "praise" Joseph Smith, but the WAY in which they praise him in the particular hymn under discussion. I have already told you this in an earlier post (#28). I do not understand why you are ignoring that point.

Also, I didn't compare the hymn "Praise to the Man" to the Ave Maria. Deborah did (post #13), and you endorsed her comparison (post #27). In response, I stated (post #28) that I had no objections to the statements made in Luke 1 about Mary that are used in the Ave Maria, but that I do have a problem with the Ave Maria itself -- but at no time did I compare the Ave Maria to the LDS hymn "Praise to the Man." You and Deborah did that, not I.

Rob, I think you have read where some LDS are uncomfortable with this specific hymn. You have also read where many others are quite comfortable with it. You have also read that the Psalms uses some very similar language as in this hymn to praise other men. Is it therefore a unique way of praise? Obviously not. Nor can it be said that it is "wrong". I think the best you can say is that you fall among the other LDS that are uncomfortable with the hymn. Thankfully, you don't have to sing it. I also am thankful that there are a vast array of other hymns that are sung every Sunday.

[David Bokovoy]

Hello Rob,

David,

The passages you quoted in Psalms 45 and 72 refer, according to the New Testament, to the future son of David, the Messiah Jesus! This isn't a good argument to establish precedent for a hymn praising Joseph Smith.

The fact that Israelite psalms are given a new Sitz in Leben or "Setting in Life" in the New Testament connected with Christ does not change the fact that Old Testament royal psalms were written to praise mortal Israelite kings in a manner that parallels the imagery featured in the LDS hymn, "Praise to the Man." One would be hard pressed to find a scholar who disagrees, for instance, with the commentary provided in the HarperCollins Study Bible produced with the Society of Biblical Literature which identifies Psalm 45 as "a royal psalm probably composed for the wedding of the king" and that "a composer or singer addresses these words to the king in praise of him" (see pg. 841). As biblical scholar Christopher Schroeder explains, "Psalm 45 is unique. Whereas hymns of praise in the psalter are normally addressed to Yhwh, this psalm is a song of praise and promise to the human king who is seen in godlike features" in "A Love Song: Psalm 45 in the Light of Ancient Near Eastern Marriage Texts," Catholic Biblical Quarterly; vol. 58 (1996): 417.

Moreover, even the superscription for Psalm 72 found in the Bible itself identifies the praise as "a Psalm for Solomon," i.e. the mortal king. So your claim that "there is no precedent in the Bible for a hymn of praise to any man other than the man who was God incarnate, Jesus Christ" is simply incorrect. In light of the evidence, your observation that the LDS hymn "praises Smith in language that the Bible typically and in most cases exclusively reserves for God and Christ" simply illustrates that the hymn directly parallels Royal Enthronement Psalms. Yet again, in terms of Joseph Smith, the LDS hymn actually softens the biblical motif of apotheosis of the king.

Best,

--DB

Edited July 18, 2011 by David Bokovoy

[Rob Bowman]

David,

You wrote:

The fact that Israelite psalms are given a new Sitz in Leben or "Setting in Life" in the New Testament connected with Christ does not change the fact that Old Testament royal psalms were written to praise mortal Israelite kings in a manner that parallels the imagery featured in the LDS hymn, "Praise to the Man." One would be hard pressed to find a scholar who disagrees, for instance, with the commentary provided in the HarperCollins Study Bible produced with the Society of Biblical Literature which identifies Psalm 45 as "a royal psalm probably composed for the wedding of the king" and that "a composer or singer addresses these words to the king in praise of him" (see pg. 841). As biblical scholar Christopher Schroeder explains, "Psalm 45 is unique. Whereas hymns of praise in the psalter are normally addressed to Yhwh, this psalm is a song of praise and promise to the human king who is seen in godlike features" in "A Love Song: Psalm 45 in the Light of Ancient Near Eastern Marriage Texts," Catholic Biblical Quarterly; vol. 58 (1996): 417.

If, as Schroeder says, Psalm 45 is unique in the Psalter, perhaps one should consider the possibility that the Messianic interpretation faithfully reflects the meaning of the Psalm in its larger context in the Psalter.

You wrote:

Moreover, even the superscription for Psalm 72 found in the Bible itself identifies the praise as "a Psalm for Solomon," i.e. the mortal king. So your claim that "there is no precedent in the Bible for a hymn of praise to any man other than the man who was God incarnate, Jesus Christ" is simply incorrect.

The Hebrew superscription has the same form as many other superscriptions, such as Psalm 73, "a Psalm of Asaph," which is why most modern translations render it "of Solomon" in Psalm 72. In any case, Psalm 72 clearly functions messianically in the context of the biblical canon, which is the context of my statement. I am not bothered by exegesis that ignores the canonical contexts of the biblical texts under discussion. If you will go back and read my original post, you'll see that I cited Psalm 72 specifically; this citation doesn't in any way conflict with my original argument.

You wrote:

In light of the evidence, your observation that the LDS hymn "praises Smith in language that the Bible typically and in most cases exclusively reserves for God and Christ" simply illustrates that the hymn directly parallels Royal Enthronement Psalms. Yet again, in terms of Joseph Smith, the LDS hymn actually softens the biblical motif of apotheosis of the king.

So, Joseph Smith is a messianic figure? or a king of Israel? or what?

[David T]

Joseph was anointed a King and Priest unto the Most High God. So...yes.

[Scott Lloyd]

Joseph was anointed a King and Priest unto the Most High God. So...yes.

Again, I submit — though he refuses to admit it — that it is really our doctrine of deification that is at the heart of Rob Bowman's indigestion over our singing "Praise to the Man." This should hardly be surprising, as he is an Evangelical.

Moreover, if Rob understands our doctrine, it should not be surprising to him, though he may not like it, that we as Latter-day Saints have no problem with affording honorific language to the Prophet, whom we believe fulfilled in every respect what Jehovah called him to do. Joseph does indeed mingle with gods and he will indeed be a joint-heir with Christ of all the Father has.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Scott Lloyd