Robert F. Smith Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 So I take it you don't like "Ave Maria" either.Good point, Darlin. "Hail Mary! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" (Luke 1:42), as well as Gabriel's annunciation to her: "Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women" (Luke 1:28)Just so Jesus blesses certain types of people in his Beatitudes (Matt 5)Judah is to be praised by his brethren in Gen 49:8 (based on the etymology of his name from hodah, as in Gen 29:35)Absalom was praised for his beauty in II Sam 14:25 (from hallal)men ought to praise one another, and children and the husband of a woman ought to praise her (Prov 27:2,21, 31:28, 31 all with hallal)Paul praises the brethren for being observant (I Cor 11:2 with epaineo)Was Brother Joseph worthy of praise?
Rob Bowman Posted July 9, 2011 Author Posted July 9, 2011 Robert,You wrote:Good point, Darlin. "Hail Mary! Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" (Luke 1:42), as well as Gabriel's annunciation to her: "Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women" (Luke 1:28)Just so Jesus blesses certain types of people in his Beatitudes (Matt 5)Judah is to be praised by his brethren in Gen 49:8 (based on the etymology of his name from hodah, as in Gen 29:35)Absalom was praised for his beauty in II Sam 14:25 (from hallal)men ought to praise one another, and children and the husband of a woman ought to praise her (Prov 27:2,21, 31:28, 31 all with hallal)Paul praises the brethren for being observant (I Cor 11:2 with epaineo)Was Brother Joseph worthy of praise?Perhaps you missed it, but I wrote: "My argument is not (a) that it is always wrong to give any sort of praise to a human being...."As for the Ave Maria, while I have absolutely no problem with what Gabriel said to Mary, I do in fact have a problem with the Catholic Ave Maria prayer, since I don't think it's right to pray to anyone except God.
Rob Bowman Posted July 9, 2011 Author Posted July 9, 2011 (edited) zerinus,You wrote:My post perfectly answered your questions. You just want to waste people’s time.You appear to be trying to look through a mirror instead of a window. Hence, you wrote:Objection overruled. The “praises” are not equivalent. Joseph Smith is praised for “communing with Jehovah”. It is Jehovah who is ultimately being praised here. The greater glory is going to Him, not to Joseph Smith.As I have already pointed out, I was quite clear in saying that I was not claiming that Joseph was receiving greater glory than God. So, who is wasting whose time here? Edited July 9, 2011 by Rob Bowman
sethpayne Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 So far, not one of you has addressed the argument I presented. Does the Biblical text contain language intended to praise a human being (as we see in "Praise to the Man" using the same terms used to praise deity?No, not really. You make a pretty good case that specific terms in the text applied only to deity. However, as has been demonstrated by others, the text isn't actually shy about heaping praise not only on specific men but also on the individual potential of all human beings.Does this seem to bother anyone besides Rob Bowman and does anyone else really care?Emphatically, no. 1
zerinus Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 zerinus,You wrote:You appear to be trying to look through a mirror instead of a window. Hence, you wrote:As I have already pointed out, I was quite clear in saying that I was not claiming that Joseph was receiving grater glory than God. So, who is wasting whose time here?When you started posting here, you were quite a logical kind of person. You used to hold your own during most of the debates. But your ability to do so now seems to have been considerably degraded, and most of the time you seem to be shooting aimlessly from the hip. I think it is about time you acknowledged that Mormonism is true and joined the Church, before you suffer any further degradation of your logical thinking capability. 3
CV75 Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 The language to praise Joseph does not translate into an infringement on the exclusive religious devotion due to God even if similar language is used, because it is understood that Joseph did more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world than any other. He is not on a par with God. The same language is used to praise Joseph as a man of God and to praise God exclusively as the Most High. Here is a big difference in the aspect and level of religious devotion involved. It is the same as honoring father and mother in their stewardship while honoring God in His, or loving God and loving one’s neighbor—and often doing one accomplishes the other.So the spirit and understanding with which the hymn is sung is so important. I think we’d be hard pressed to find someone who thinks the language has identical meaning and application to Joseph as it does to God.
Doctor Ninja Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 It can easily be said that the "praise" and "deification" of the Bible is not Biblical. 1
Rob Bowman Posted July 10, 2011 Author Posted July 10, 2011 Ninja,You wrote:It can easily be said that the "praise" and "deification" of the Bible is not Biblical.First, this would seem to be a diversion from the issue. Second, your comment expresses a tired, cliched criticism of the evangelical view of the Bible that is simply unjustified. We do not deify the Bible.
Rob Bowman Posted July 10, 2011 Author Posted July 10, 2011 CV75,You wrote:The language to praise Joseph does not translate into an infringement on the exclusive religious devotion due to God even if similar language is used, because it is understood that Joseph did more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world than any other. He is not on a par with God. The same language is used to praise Joseph as a man of God and to praise God exclusively as the Most High. Here is a big difference in the aspect and level of religious devotion involved. It is the same as honoring father and mother in their stewardship while honoring God in His, or loving God and loving one’s neighbor—and often doing one accomplishes the other.So the spirit and understanding with which the hymn is sung is so important. I think we’d be hard pressed to find someone who thinks the language has identical meaning and application to Joseph as it does to God.How many times must I say that I was not claiming that the hymn places Joseph on the same level as God? How many times must this caricature of my argument be rebutted?
Rob Bowman Posted July 10, 2011 Author Posted July 10, 2011 sethpayne,You wrote:Does this seem to bother anyone besides Rob Bowman and does anyone else really care?Emphatically, no.Within the parameters of this forum, your assessment, sadly, appears to be correct.
urroner Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 For All the Saints 1. For all the saints, who from their labours rest, Who Thee by faith before the world confessed, Thy Name, O Jesus, be forever blessed. Alleluia, Alleluia! 2. Thou wast their Rock, their Fortress and their Might; Thou, Lord, their Captain in the well fought fight; Thou, in the darkness drear, their one true Light. Alleluia, Alleluia! 3. For the Apostles’ glorious company, Who bearing forth the Cross o’er land and sea, Shook all the mighty world, we sing to Thee: Alleluia, Alleluia! 4. For the Evangelists, by whose blest word, Like fourfold streams, the garden of the Lord, Is fair and fruitful, be Thy Name adored. Alleluia, Alleluia! 5. For Martyrs, who with rapture kindled eye, Saw the bright crown descending from the sky, And seeing, grasped it, Thee we glorify. Alleluia, Alleluia! 6. O blest communion, fellowship divine! We feebly struggle, they in glory shine; All are one in Thee, for all are Thine. Alleluia, Alleluia! 7. O may Thy soldiers, faithful, true and bold, Fight as the saints who nobly fought of old, And win with them the victor’s crown of gold. Alleluia, Alleluia! 8. And when the strife is fierce, the warfare long, Steals on the ear the distant triumph song, And hearts are brave, again, and arms are strong. Alleluia, Alleluia! 9. The golden evening brightens in the west; Soon, soon to faithful warriors comes their rest; Sweet is the calm of paradise the blessed. Alleluia, Alleluia! 10. But lo! there breaks a yet more glorious day; The saints triumphant rise in bright array; The King of glory passes on His way. Alleluia, Alleluia! 11. From earth’s wide bounds, from ocean’s farthest coast, Through gates of pearl streams in the countless host, And singing to Father, Son and Holy Ghost: Alleluia, Alleluia! 1
CV75 Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 How many times must I say that I was not claiming that the hymn places Joseph on the same level as God?I understand what you are claiming (I think) -- that using biblical words that are used in phrases to worship God infringe upon worshiping God when not reserved for exclusively worshiping Him but for other purposes. My answer would still be that infringement depends on the spirit of worship and devotion being applied to the subject of the hymn, not necessarily the words used in the hymn.It is no more infringement than using the words honor, love, obey, etc. when righteously applying them to people of than God.
TAO Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 (edited) My conclusion is that the glorification of Joseph Smith in Mormon religion as attested by this hymn infringes on the exclusive religious devotion due to God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) alone.Considering this article of faith, I would say you are not correct:We believe that the first principles and aordinances of the Gospel are: first, bFaith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, cRepentance; third, dBaptism by eimmersion for the fremission of sins; fourth, Laying on of ghands for the hgift of the Holy Ghost.Joseph Smith is not mentioned in the articles of Faith, thus, I do not believe you are portraying our beliefs correct.Our beliefs compare much to how the Jews view Abraham. Jesus said this:John 8:39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.There are verses in the Bible which look upon Abraham in a pretty similar way to the way Joseph Smith is looked upon in the song. Thus, I would argue that the Bible praises Abraham and other prophets nearly as much as this song praises Joseph.I believe you support Bible inerrancy, right? So then what do these verses that praise Abraham mean to you... including the parable of Lazarus that Jesus spoke, including.Again, I don't think it is a bad thing to look upon prophets highly, so it is done of Moses, Abraham, Jacob, Paul, and others, in these generations. Looking upon prophets highly is not necessarily a bad thing. And they are not looked upon in the same way Jesus is.Best Wishes,TAO Edited July 10, 2011 by TAO
Doctor Ninja Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 Ninja,You wrote:First, this would seem to be a diversion from the issue. Second, your comment expresses a tired, cliched criticism of the evangelical view of the Bible that is simply unjustified. We do not deify the Bible.Why is it a diversion? You stated it, not I. In this light, the unabashed praising of Joseph Smith using honorific language that the Bible normally and in most cases exclusively uses for Deity is quite shocking.You are "tired of the cliched criticism of the EV view of the Bible", but have no problems using the same type of cliched criticism of the LDS view of Joseph Smith? If you truly didn't want to be guilty of a hypocritical double standard, you might want to start by removing the above statement, don't you think? 2
Magyar Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 One might also note that almost every Christian hero and heroine has his or her name upon a Christian church somewhere, an honor one might expect to reserve for God, who presumably founded it. (Luke, John the Baptist, Mark, Stephen, Our Lady of Sorroww, etc.) Upon our churches, however, from Ohio to Okinawa, you will find only one name: Jesus Christ. 3
urroner Posted July 11, 2011 Posted July 11, 2011 Maybe I should just stay on the porch while all the big dogs are doing the hunt, but this little puppy thinks that the argument about the song "Praise to the Man" is way too similar to the "adieu" argument. It seems to me that both argument are about tempest in very small teacups and are a waste of time. They both seem to be rabbit trails that are pulling everybody away from serious discussions about our differences.
Rob Bowman Posted July 11, 2011 Author Posted July 11, 2011 urroner,You wrote:Maybe I should just stay on the porch while all the big dogs are doing the hunt, but this little puppy thinks that the argument about the song "Praise to the Man" is way too similar to the "adieu" argument. It seems to me that both argument are about tempest in very small teacups and are a waste of time. They both seem to be rabbit trails that are pulling everybody away from serious discussions about our differences.Ah, the "nothing to see here" defense.
LeSellers Posted July 11, 2011 Posted July 11, 2011 Ah, the "nothing to see here" defense.Not so much that as the "mountain out of a swimming pool" defense.Lehi
urroner Posted July 11, 2011 Posted July 11, 2011 urroner,You wrote:Ah, the "nothing to see here" defense.And if there is nothing to see here, would you that I say there is something to see here? I see very little difference between the argument that you make about the song and the "adieu" argument. You say that I am using the old "nothing to see here" defense and I disagree. I do see something here and that is a rather very silly argument which is really nothing more of a rhubarb on a little league baseball field.You make fleeting accusations that we are wrong because we don't worship the way you do, we use words differently from you, and while you have piped unto us, we haven't danced and you have mourned unto us and we haven't lamented. You have done your best, but your best just wasn't good enough. 1
Lightbearer Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 In this light, the unabashed praising of Joseph Smith using honorific language that the Bible normally and in most cases exclusively uses for Deity is quite shocking. This argument cannot be overturned by picking out a phrase or two and showing that they might be used in other contexts; it is the fact that such an abundance of biblical language for honoring God is brought together in this context of a hymn explicitly written in praise to Joseph that must be addressed.My conclusion here is not that Mormons elevate Joseph above Jesus, or that they make Joseph equal to Jesus, or that they "worship" Joseph. I agree that the hymn clearly distinguishes between Joseph and God. My conclusion is that the glorification of Joseph Smith in Mormon religion as attested by this hymn infringes on the exclusive religious devotion due to God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) alone.Really your conclusion is of no worth to me, especially since God Himself praises His Prophet and Seer that HE has raised up in these last days to overturn the apostate churches that have corrupted the truth and try to defame the fullness of the restored Gospel. I especially like this scripture:(D&C 122:1-4) "THE ends of the earth shall inquire after thy name, and fools shall have thee in derision, and h*** shall rage against thee; While the pure in heart, and the wise, and the noble, and the virtuous, shall seek counsel, and authority, and blessings constantly from under thy hand. And thy people shall never be turned against thee by the testimony of traitors. And although their influence shall cast thee into trouble, and into bars and walls, thou shalt be had in honor; and but for a small moment and thy voice shall be more terrible in the midst of thine enemies than the fierce lion, because of thy righteousness; and thy God shall stand by thee forever and ever." PRAISE TO THE MAN WHO COMMUNED WITH JEHOVAH, JESUS ANOINTED THAT PROPHET AND SEER! 1
Nathair/|\ Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 Really your conclusion is of no worth to me, especially since God Himself praises His Prophet and Seer that HE has raised up in these last days to overturn the apostate churches that have corrupted the truth and try to defame the fullness of the restored Gospel. I especially like this scripture: PRAISE TO THE MAN WHO COMMUNED WITH JEHOVAH, JESUS ANOINTED THAT PROPHET AND SEER!And, We Thank Thee, O God, For a Prophet.
The Investigator Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 It is truly proper to glorify you O Theotokos,The ever blessed, immaculate, and the Mother of Our God,More honorable than the cherubim,And beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim,Who, a virgin, gave birth to God the Word.You, truly the Theotokos, we magnify.Yeah, whatever. Venerate your saints and prophets. I don't care. We are far more devoted to the Theotokos than you are to Joseph Smith.
Storm Rider Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 It is truly proper to glorify you O Theotokos,The ever blessed, immaculate, and the Mother of Our God,More honorable than the cherubim,And beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim,Who, a virgin, gave birth to God the Word.You, truly the Theotokos, we magnify.Yeah, whatever. Venerate your saints and prophets. I don't care. We are far more devoted to the Theotokos than you are to Joseph Smith.You have a good wit! Thank you.
The Investigator Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 You have a good wit! Thank you.Thank you.I am around enough Mormons to know that you don't think Joseph Smith is a God and to understand why you love him and cherish him, although I don't share the sentiment.
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