Duncan Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 An analogy:I go on a date with my childrens mother.I tell their older brother to feed them a nutricious meal.I tell them to eat what their brother serves.Their brother serves them ice cream and cake.They obey their brother and get sick.That doesn't negate my instructions or authority as a father even though my eldest was my representative with my authority at the time.that is true but wouldn't you follow up via tweet! or a stake president! I am just wondering about this process and not trying to be a fussbudget!
KevinG Posted June 17, 2011 Author Posted June 17, 2011 In the real lived experience I have gone to two different leaders with the same issue and both have told me different things, so I learned not to stress about it because if they have differing opinions then how am I supposed to know what God thinks and if there are differing opinions then obviously it didn't matter to God to settle it.I was once on a Bishops counsel determining if we should remove a sister from earlier church discipline. The bishop asked his counselors to pray and then we all discussed what we felt (as the handbook instructed us to do). We were not in agreement. Once counselor felt that some kind of probation should continue while the Bishop and I felt she had repented fully and enough time had passed for her to partake of the sacrament again. This happened three times until the Bishop and I followed the counsel of the other conselor and restored her ability to take the sacrament but with some conditions that she promise daily scripture study and prayer.Later she admitted to the Bishop she was grateful for the conditions placed on her because she would not have felt full repentance if the conditions had not been added.In this case the Bishop and I were of the opinion that she had fulfilled all conditions and needed to do nothing, but the other counselor was in tune with a needful thing for her repentance process. Even with the best intentions our feelings of mercy and compassion would have cheated her of something she told us she was grateful for. Three priesthood leaders, two different opinions. One counselor in tune enough to listen clearly to one perfectly just God.
KevinG Posted June 17, 2011 Author Posted June 17, 2011 Duncan from what I know of you you aren't being a fussbudget. My experience is God will let us flounder a bit as long as it doesn't damn us or those we serve. It is part of the learning process. It is up to us not to take advantage of the imperfections of our leaders. Any mistakes are address through the repentance and atonement process.A perfect plan that allows for mortal imperfection. Beautiful.
Calm Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 Unless a person can get a recommend without tithing, my thought would be that it's about money.I've got a recommend without paying one cent of tithing.
ERMD Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 but it seems that God makes mistakes though if his representatives do, because they are a reflection of him and if they make mistakes then something went screwy somwhere I don't want to believe that or have to believe that!To expect perfection of anyone is a tall order. God has put forth his plan and the instructions as to how we are to go about implementing it. It is a learning process for us, and no one will get it right every time. Every leader in the church, male or female, bears this responsibility within their area of stewardship. Every parent bears it within his or her family, and every individual bears it for himself.
KevinG Posted June 18, 2011 Author Posted June 18, 2011 This reminds me of the bumper sticker: God save me from your followers.
Calm Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 Shouldn't we be undefiled before going to the Temple rather then not. Barring going directly after baptism or partaking of the Sacrament, how would you suggest we manage this?
Calm Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 but it seems that God makes mistakes though if his representatives do, because they are a reflection of him and if they make mistakes then something went screwy somwhere I don't want to believe that or have to believe that!In the scriptures is there one prophet who is acting as a representative of God that didn't make a mistake?
Calm Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 how am I supposed to know what God thinks and if there are differing opinions then obviously it didn't matter to God to settle it.I believe that God allows this to encourage us to go to him directly in prayer rather than learning to completely depend on someone else to speak for him for us.
thesometimesaint Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 calmoriah:Job was considered perfect in his generation. So that's pretty close for me.Jesus was perfect in that he didn't sin. I don't know if he made any mistakes in learning carpentry from Joseph.
Calm Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 calmoriah:Job was considered perfect in his generation. So that's pretty close for me.Jesus was perfect in that he didn't sin. I don't know if he made any mistakes in learning carpentry from Joseph. I read the book...he has some issues in my opinion. Plus would you call him a prophet? He seems more like a devout believer to me.And Jesus is God.
rpn Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 1) It is our Heavenly Father's way of trying to protect us from making covenants we can't keep.2) It is a way to reduce the possibility of evil people doing something bad in a temple.3) After polygamy was outlawed, it was a way of assuring that doctrinal change was finally implemented (it wasn't until after the turn of the century that the TR process began).4) It creates a record against which we can be personally judged (record keeping being big in the Lord's church, and all).5) It provides a mechanism that makes it a little harder for someone to disappear in a congregation.6) It creates a personal visual reminder of our covenants.
Duncan Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 To expect perfection of anyone is a tall order. God has put forth his plan and the instructions as to how we are to go about implementing it. It is a learning process for us, and no one will get it right every time. Every leader in the church, male or female, bears this responsibility within their area of stewardship. Every parent bears it within his or her family, and every individual bears it for himself.I have had a Bishop and Branch President that demanded perfection from the congregants, and I mean demanded, I grew up under the Bsihop-I profiled him in the post about parents killingfaith. I still years later am trying to get out of feeling guilty for what he has said and done. I remember as an 8 yr kid, who never had an allowance, being asked in a tithing settlement if I paid it and I said no, he hit the desk with his hand and said that because I was recently baptized I was "fooling the Lord" by not living up to the covenant, I was in tears and my Mom told me that next year that she would go by herslef and leave me and my younger sister at home with my two older siblings. I don't know if she ever went or not after that or what all happened.
thesometimesaint Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 Duncan:I hope you have forgiven him and moved on towards a better understanding of what the lord actually wants.
etana Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 Unless a person can get a recommend without tithing, my thought would be that it's about money.Tithing is, by far, the easiest bar for me to clear.
rodheadlee Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 Having just been "processed" and had my temple recommend renewed, I can say that "this is how it's always been done". The questions have gotten more "soft" and less probing, for good reason: probing uncovers irreconcilable difficulties. Individuals who live otherwise exemplary lives can be "guilty" of all manner of disturbing private behaviors and occupations and variables. So a single "process" is all that works for a single destination - the temple. There is no way that such a place, with a set criteria for "worthiness" can possibly address all the individuality of c. 15 million people, let alone 7 billion.The "worthiness" questions are general in their specificity. And I answer them accordingly. All that I am thinking beyond the doctrines of the Church I do not share, usually, with the interviewer. I pass the physical requirements swimmingly, so there is no difficulty in getting a recommend.... Yeah, just don't be addicted to tobacco. Who cares if you believe or not?
Duncan Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 Duncan:I hope you have forgiven him and moved on towards a better understanding of what the lord actually wants.oh yeah, now that I am older I am not afraid of him or what he says or does, if the situation warrants it I would publicly disagree with him but "speak the truth in love"!
staccato Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 If it were really about self reflection, you do not need another person present. Self reflection is just that. One self. The insistence of inserting another individual who acts as a judge makes it about control. Not self reflection.
TAO Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 Temple Reccomend Process is asking us if we are ready to make higher covenants. =).We will do the same thing in Final Judgement, no? Asked questions, have our guilt layed before us, determined if we are ready to make and do higher things =).
Daniel Peterson Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who cannot.There are 10 kinds of people in the world -- those who understand binary notation, and those who don't.
Questing Beast Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 Deborah, on 17 June 2011 - 01:03 PM, said: "You must be so proud as you go home grinning that you fooled them again."Thank you for saying what I would have been banned for saying.Really? Deborah gets a special pass around here or what?One of the first questions "Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the Gospel in these latter days?" would disqualify these people if they were really honest.I explained somewhat of my beliefs on each of the questions, to my bishop. It boils down to believing that a lot more is going on than just Mormonism's explanation of God's work.When I answered this specific question to the counselor in the stake presidency three days later, I said: "I like the concept, so yes, I believe truth is being restored all the time." Words to that effect, as near as I can recall.He moved on to the next question. And I answered in a similar manner; implying I accepted that my "yes" answer to the belief questions means "yes" applies to Mormonism.So when I said "yes" to sustaining the " first presidency and quorum of twelve apostles as prophets, seers and revelators", I did not elaborate. But in my mind (as I had told the bishop earlier), I qualified my affirmation as meaning FOR the Church only.When the question was asked "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?" I said "no". There was no need to elaborate, since the teachings and practices of the LDS faith are not a problem with me; and I would not change my lifestyle, beliefs or behavior even if I were not a member. And I do not associate with or believe in, much less support, any other religious group. Even if I did associate with another religion, or even joined them, none of them would be a problem for the LDS Church, because I would not associate with or join any religion or group that taught and practiced anything contrary to or in opposition to Mormonism.You can claim that I am dishonest. But I am ready to stand up for my answers. If the bishopric and stake presidency does not ask about my beliefs about how Mormonism fits into the bigger picture, then I won't have to share my opinions on any of that....
Kenngo1969 Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 ... What do you think the purpose(s) of the temple recommend process are? Critics, faithful, faithful critics and critically faithful are all welcome to share and respond. ...The Endowment is to enable us to pass the angels who stand as sentinels (of course, I can't say more, for obvious reasons). Of course, bishops aren't angels, but if the Temple is a piece of the Celestial Realm here on earth, then it stands to reason that sentinels would likewise protect it from unauthorized entry.
Kenngo1969 Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 If it were really about self reflection, you do not need another person present. Self reflection is just that. One self. The insistence of inserting another individual who acts as a judge makes it about control. Not self reflection.Oh, but it is about self-reflection. All bishops and stake presidents do is hold up a mirror, metaphorically speaking.
Questing Beast Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 Yeah, just don't be addicted to tobacco. Who cares if you believe or not?I care. That's what counts. The physical "worthiness" questions are all about trying to live above "the bar". That's one of the truly great things about Mormonism: its higher expectations of behavior, intended to free the individual from the demons of physical addiction and vice; with the purpose being the attainment of mind/spirit over matter/flesh....
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