The Book Of Mormon Musical

[cinepro]

If you enjoy getting your beliefs mocked and misrepresented then this is funny as it gets.

Mocking yes, but which LDS beliefs do you feel they "misrepresented"?

Other than the part about Jesus "having his own planet", which I've never heard explicitly taught (although it's certainly implicit) and God living near Kolob and not on it, and it's a star, not a planet (a distinction I am eager to make should anyone ask me about it), they seem to be pretty spot-on in their presentation of unusual things many LDS believe.

Or, to put it another way, which of these musicals most distorts LDS beliefs and doctrines?

1. Saturday's Warrior

2. My Turn on Earth

3. The Book of Mormon

[Deborah]

Here is a review that showed up on FB. I don't think I'll be seeing this...ever.

review

[Jeff K.]

I think the review clearly places those Mormons who go along with the crowd in an uncomfortable position.

[Mortal Man]

My perspective, as of last January:

http://www.mormontim...eaching-moments

Which is to say that the majority of humankind will continue to be either ignorant of or indifferent toward its claims or, as depicted in Lehi's vision (1 Nephi 8:26-28; 11:35-36), will sneer at them and find them (and us) ridiculous. We should not be dismayed when we encounter such reactions.

Are you saying we should be nice to people, even if we think they "sneer" at us?

[why me]

That's kind of interesting. I know when the Sister Act movie came out with Whoopi, there were quite a few Catholics who felt that it was mocking their religion and that anyone who saw it was contributing to said mocking.

Jeffk, did you feel that way about the Sister Act movie as well? Did you agree that it was mocking of religion and therefore should be avoided? It's a sincere question-just trying to understand your point of view better and where you draw your lines.

Sister Act does not actually mock the catholic faith at all. It is a fun movie and treats the religion with respect. For example the songs that they sing and practice in the movie come right from the catholic song book. The movie showed a dying parish but with a little help in community involvement, the parish became successful again. One can not compare Sister Act with The Book of Mormon musical.

[why me]

Are you saying we should be nice to people, even if we think they "sneer" at us?

Yes. What is important is pride in the faith and what that faith does for the individual. People have been around mormons for a long time and the majority find mormons to be nice people and an asset to any community. Those that sneer will eventually show their own ignorance.

[bluebell]

Sister Act does not actually mock the catholic faith at all. It is a fun movie and treats the religion with respect. For example the songs that they sing and practice in the movie come right from the catholic song book. The movie showed a dying parish but with a little help in community involvement, the parish became successful again. One can not compare Sister Act with The Book of Mormon musical.

I agree, i didn't find anything mocking in Sister Act. Some Catholics apparently did, however. Jeffk has taken the stance that if anyone finds something offensive, then everyone has to treat it as such, regardless of their own views on it.

I personally feel that people have to judge for themselves to some degree and that there should be a balance between not mocking others, and not surrendering our sincere judgements to someone else.

[Jeff K.]

Actually my stance is if I think that something shows offense I will not see it. And if someone asks me why I think it is offense I will explain why. What others decide is up to their own devices.

[bluebell]

Actually my stance is if I think that something shows offense I will not see it. And if someone asks me why I think it is offense I will explain why. What others decide is up to their own devices.

In the past though Jeff, you've said some very judgemental things about anyone who disagrees with you-even in this thread. Your stances seems to be that it is up to everyone else to decide how they may, but if their decision disagrees with yours it's unrighteous and a sin.

If i'm misrepresenting you then i apologize but that is honestly how i have read your many remarks on the subject.

[Jeff K.]

Sometimes judgement can be confused with why someone does or does not accept something. For instance I think premarital sex cheapens the idea of intimacy, now to couples living together that sounds like a prejudgement, but it explains why I think such is wrong. How one can avoid explaining why something is wrong and not have those doing the wrong take offense is perhaps a path that cannot easily be tread.

[Jeff K.]

Your stances seems to be that it is up to everyone else to decide how they may, but if their decision disagrees with yours it's unrighteous and a sin.

I suppose there might be a righteous reason for some sinful things along the lines of what we were speaking of. I have yet to hear them though.

[cinepro]

Here is a review that showed up on FB. I don't think I'll be seeing this...ever.

review

To be clear, it's a "review" of the soundtrack, not the entire show.

[Jeff K.]

And that of course means the rest of it makes up for the musical portion?

[Jaybear]

And that of course means the rest of it makes up for the musical portion?

I would say that the Tony awards and the box office receipts more than make up for this one critical review.

[mfbukowski]

[not pc]That's because those faiths are boring, have no sense of humour and kill people who disagree with them. We don't do that anymore[/not pc]

Yep

I was just wondering in this PC culture where you are not supposed to "bully" any one or use derogatory ethnic slurs of any kind or call people with a different sexual preference anything at all- in this culture why is it OK to slam Mormons?

I agree we should not bash- but why not a reasonable response? Kind of like an Anti-Defamation League thing?

One of the reasons no one would take on the Jews I think is because of the ADL.

What's wrong with that?

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 13 June 2011 - 02:30 PM, said:

And that of course means the rest of it makes up for the musical portion?

I would say that the Tony awards and the box office receipts more than make up for this one critical review.

For those who see no difference between money and morality, you are absolutely correct. Porn memberships on the internet are skyrocketing, based on your logic, it is a good thing.

I reject such logic. You of course are free to indulge in it.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mocking yes, but which LDS beliefs do you feel they "misrepresented"?

Other than the part about Jesus "having his own planet", which I've never heard explicitly taught (although it's certainly implicit) and God living near Kolob and not on it, and it's a star, not a planet (a distinction I am eager to make should anyone ask me about it), they seem to be pretty spot-on in their presentation of unusual things many LDS believe.

Since you noted some misrepresented beliefs then you acknowledge that my post was accurate.

I also think the entire premise behind "I believe" is a complete misrepresentation.

[Jaybear]

Yep

I was just wondering in this PC culture where you are not supposed to "bully" any one or use derogatory ethnic slurs of any kind or call people with a different sexual preference anything at all- in this culture why is it OK to slam Mormons?

I agree we should not bash- but why not a reasonable response? Kind of like an Anti-Defamation League thing?

One of the reasons no one would take on the Jews I think is because of the ADL.

What's wrong with that?

Its okay to seek to amend the constitution to taking away the rights of gays to marry, and its okay to "slam" mormons.

That is what the first amendment is about.

[Jeff K.]

The Consittution never defined marraige between two men nor between two women. Rather judges decided to impose that interpretation. The people decided to clarify the definition so as to refute the interpretation of judges. Jaybear your interpretation produces a false context which never existed.

[Pahoran]

I would say that the Tony awards and the box office receipts more than make up for this one critical review.

Well of course you would; you are always impressed by the argument from popularity, especially when it suits you. However, a moment's actual thought would reveal that it really takes no intelligence, imagination or empathy to fail to notice when someone else's ox is being gored.

Does that explain something?

Regards,

Pahoran

[cinepro]

Since you noted some misrepresented beliefs then you acknowledge that my post was accurate.

I also think the entire premise behind "I believe" is a complete misrepresentation.

Just to be clear, do you believe that Jesus will rule over planets just as his Father rules over ours? I suspect most LDS do, so that would be an accurate claim.

As for Kolob being a star or planet...

Star or planet?

The Book of Abraham is unclear about whether Kolob was a star or a planet,[2] and Mormon writings have taken positions on either side of this issue. One part of the Book of Abraham states that Abraham "saw the stars...and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God;...and the name of the great one is Kolob."[5] Thus, Kolob is referred to as a "star". However, the book defines the word Kokaubeam (a transliteration of the Hebrew "כּוֹכָבִים" [c.f., Gen. 15:5]) as meaning "all the great lights, which were in the firmament of heaven".[13] This would appear to include planets as among the "stars",[14] and apparently, the earth itself as considered to be among these "stars".[15] In addition, the Book of Abraham text appear to classify Kolob as among a hierarchy of "planets".[16] On the other hand, in Joseph Smith's Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar, he classifies Kolob as one of twelve "fixed stars", in distinction with fifteen "moving planets".[17] The term fixed star generally refers to an astronomical object that does not seem to move across the sky, but may have a slow proper motion as discovered in 1718 by Edmund Halley. Though "fixed", according to Smith, Kolob moves "swifter than the rest of the twelve fixed stars".[18] Moreover, in the Book of Abraham, Smith refers to "fixed planets or stars",[19] implying that some planets may be "fixed". He also refers to the sun as a "governing planet",[20] further complicating the terminology. Therefore, there is no consensus on whether Joseph Smith knew Kolob to be a planet or a star as those terms are used in modern astronomy.

Writers in the Latter Day Saint movement have taken positions on both sides of the issue of whether Kolob is a star or a planet. Brigham Young, second President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, spoke of Kolob as a planet.[21] Likewise, LDS Apostles John Taylor,[22] Orson Pratt (a mathematician with an interest in astronomy),[23] Orson F. Whitney,[24] and Alvin R. Dyer[25] referred to Kolob as a planet. Other Mormon theologians have also viewed Kolob as a planet.[26] Several other Mormon writers have referred to Kolob as a star, including B. H. Roberts[27] and President David O. McKay[28]

When it comes to broadway musicals, I don't expect the doctrine to be any more accurate than that presented by LDS prophets and apostles. And it is certainly believable to me that an LDS missionary might sincerely believe Kolob was a planet.

So, unless someone can present other evidence that the show misstates LDS beliefs, it appears they at least have some company among LDS thinkers for their claims and I would have to argue that they do accurately present LDS beliefs at least as well as (and maybe even better than) Church productions do.

[mfbukowski]

deleted-

[TAO]

Mocking yes, but which LDS beliefs do you feel they "misrepresented"?

Other than the part about Jesus "having his own planet", which I've never heard explicitly taught (although it's certainly implicit) and God living near Kolob and not on it, and it's a star, not a planet (a distinction I am eager to make should anyone ask me about it), they seem to be pretty spot-on in their presentation of unusual things many LDS believe.

Or, to put it another way, which of these musicals most distorts LDS beliefs and doctrines?

1. Saturday's Warrior

2. My Turn on Earth

3. The Book of Mormon

cinepro, also the part about Jesus visiting 'in the USA' in ancient times or whatnot (considering that is not known). I listened to about a 10 second segment on the radio, and of course, they picked an error.

I think if we went through it, we could probably find many more errors... I think the play is accurate in terms of cultural morminism... but doesn't actually really explain spiritual mormonism very well at all.

[Ron Beron]

Mocking yes, but which LDS beliefs do you feel they "misrepresented"?

Other than the part about Jesus "having his own planet", which I've never heard explicitly taught (although it's certainly implicit) and God living near Kolob and not on it, and it's a star, not a planet (a distinction I am eager to make should anyone ask me about it), they seem to be pretty spot-on in their presentation of unusual things many LDS believe.

Or, to put it another way, which of these musicals most distorts LDS beliefs and doctrines?

1. Saturday's Warrior

2. My Turn on Earth

3. The Book of Mormon

The question is not only one of distortion. There is enough of that to go around, but one of civility and respect. The play seeks nothing but to mock the religious beliefs of a large group of people in a pornographic manner. If Mormons can be attacked now in such prurient manner then how long will it be before they target Jesus in like manner. At least Monty Python realized that their planned attempt at poking fun at the gospel narrative with the Life of Brian wouldn't work in the satire of Jesus because he was a good and decent person. South Park makes no distinctions.

[TAO]

Just to be clear, do you believe that Jesus will rule over planets just as his Father rules over ours? I suspect most LDS do, so that would be an accurate claim.

As for Kolob being a star or planet...

When it comes to broadway musicals, I don't expect the doctrine to be any more accurate than that presented by LDS prophets and apostles. And it is certainly believable to me that an LDS missionary might sincerely believe Kolob was a planet.

So, unless someone can present other evidence that the show misstates LDS beliefs, it appears they at least have some company among LDS thinkers for their claims and I would have to argue that they do accurately present LDS beliefs at least as well as (and maybe even better than) Church productions do.

Cinepro, there isn't a mention of Kokaubeam in the two verses that classified Kolob as a star, and governing body closest to God.

2 And I saw the ^astars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;

3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is ^aKolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.

So nah, they are right... the play does not characterize it correctly.

The play really does a rather bad job imo. =/