The Book Of Mormon Musical

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Exactly like that. I've watched South Park and I don't get offended when Terrance and Philip are on because I understand that it's satirical, it takes an aspect of Canadian culture and amplifies it.

H.

So what would be mockery to you? Since you don't identify with the normal view of the word, I am curious when you would use that word. Or is everything just "witty".

[KevinG]

Exactly like that. I've watched South Park and I don't get offended when Terrance and Philip are on because I understand that it's satirical, it takes an aspect of Canadian culture and amplifies it.

H.

Very good. We have a starting point. Now about those asertions that LDS are acting persecuted because of Stone and Parkers humor while in fact the collective LDS response is more akin to "yawn- another day another parody".

[mfbukowski]

...I love Sesame Street and was raised on it.

I mourn for the generations lost.....

[KevinG]

I mourn for the generations lost.....

What are you? One of those Captain Kangarooans or a follower of Fred Rogers?

[LDSToronto]

Until the next edition of the RM lampoons Missionaries preaching to an AIDs victim with maggots in his anus let's talk about false equivelence.

Let's explore that theme - what do you think the play is trying to say about religion in the scene with the AIDS victim with maggots in his anus (I thought it was his scrotum, I could be wrong)? Can you find a similar message in The RM?

H.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 14 June 2011 - 01:10 PM, said:

I suppose you think people have to see porn to know it is wrong to watch?

Or are you telling us that the musical doesn't mock our religion? Apparently yours is ok with it.

LDS have a penchant for labeling anything they find mildly suggestive, "porn". For instance, I've been told that Beverly Hills 90210 is porn. Perhaps it would do a few people some good to watch some real pornography to get an idea of what porn really is.

Similarly, I find that one can go overboard when labeling something as a mockery. As I pointed out, The RM can be considered a mockery of the LDS culture, dependent on the way the term 'mockery' is defined.

H.

The only penchant I have seen is your ability to overlook anything mocking the church Latter-day Saints belong to. I find it interesting that you do not believe it is mockery, but apparently even if it were so, you would revel in it. Your hostility towards our church is well known.

Perhaps you haven't learned the difference between mocking beliefs and mocking the foibles of man. I know you care very little for the church, but at least have the honesty to accept that it is mockery, and the mockery isn't about our cultural foibles, but our beliefs also. At least be that honest.

[mfbukowski]

Just like Terance and Philip is a witty commentary on Canadian culture.

Oxymoron.

Remain calm. Some of my best friends (and enemies) are Canadian.

They're not bad people once you get used to the constant shivering

[KevinG]

Let's explore that theme - what do you think the play is trying to say about religion in the scene with the AIDS victim with maggots in his anus (I thought it was his scrotum, I could be wrong)? Can you find a similar message in The RM?

H.

I think the RM and the Book of Mormon musical have more to say about cultures of religious people than they do about religion. In fact both are fairly bereft of religion and full of social commentary about Mormons in particular but all missionary minded religions in general.

That is where I feel people get too bent out of shape over these things. Please by all means get offended when our Lord and Savior is blasphemed or our doctrines misrepresented but when someone takes a potshot at the fact that Missionaries are green they just shed light on an obvious truth about 19 year old boys wanting to do a good turn.

On the other hand the real truth of disease and missionary work in Africa is a remarkable and positive story. Frankly miraculous. Hopefully the parody will shine light on what really goes on with these green boys and old couples. Clean water, eyeglasses, disease control, wheelchairs, schools, greater faith in Jesus Christ and His ordained messengers.

[mfbukowski]

Until the next edition of the RM lampoons Missionaries preaching to an AIDs victim with maggots in his anus let's talk about false equivelence.

Come on now- You know they stole that from Saturday's Warrior!

[KevinG]

I'm still puzzed by the persecution complex Walden sees when frankly most LDS don't care about the Musical or file it away with other mocking and protests.

It is a common vision for critics of the LDS Church and culture. So common as to think it is a meme of the critics to justify their own mocking. Meanwhile in the real world most Mormons I interact with use mockery or honest misunderstanding as a launching point for teaching what we really believe. (Notwithstanding the ranks of critics who would tell us what we really believe - but that is a whole other topic).

[LDSToronto]

Very good. We have a starting point. Now about those asertions that LDS are acting persecuted because of Stone and Parkers humor while in fact the collective LDS response is more akin to "yawn- another day another parody".

I don't recall making assertions that the LDS feel persecuted. My original foray into this thread was to comment on the fact that some were judging a play they hadn't even seen. From my experience, most LDS who are aware of the play have said, "I won't watch that play because it is vulgar". Can't argue with that - I won't watch horror movies because they are too violent for my liking.

But, I don't recall anyone telling me that the play makes them feel persecuted.

H.

[mfbukowski]

What are you? One of those Captain Kangarooans or a follower of Fred Rogers?

Don't insult me. You think I'm a kid or something?

Try Howdy Doody!

[KevinG]

But, I don't recall anyone telling me that the play makes them feel persecuted.

H.

Uh... yeah.

Well after reading these posts, it appears that some good is coming out of it: the LDS persecution complex, in which TBMs perceive any slight towards their peculiar beliefs as an assault on the kingdom of god, has again been heightened, thus ensuring that the general LDS population will band more strongly together to fight this perceived injustice, persecution, etc. You guys can thank the writers of this play for helping unify TBMs across the country to speak out against this outrage!

Heck, I even see people stating that this broadway play is some sort of jab at the LDS for their stance on Prop 8.....heck, even Trey Parker would have a difficult time making some of this stuff up

I probably misread this comment.

[KevinG]

Don't insult me. You think I'm a kid or something?

Try Howdy Doody!

Forgive me for insulting my elders. heh.

[LDSToronto]

The only penchant I have seen is your ability to overlook anything mocking the church Latter-day Saints belong to. I find it interesting that you do not believe it is mockery, but apparently even if it were so, you would revel in it. Your hostility towards our church is well known.

Perhaps you haven't learned the difference between mocking beliefs and mocking the foibles of man. I know you care very little for the church, but at least have the honesty to accept that it is mockery, and the mockery isn't about our cultural foibles, but our beliefs also. At least be that honest.

I don't believe it is mockery. Stating that I believe it is mockery would be dishonest of me. I can recognize mockery - the Godmakers is mockery; it's only intention is to harm. And regardless of how I feel towards the church, I don't condone mockery of sacred traditions.

H.

[LDSToronto]

Uh... yeah.

I probably misread this comment.

No, you read it correctly, but I didn't make the comment, Walden did. We aren't the same person.

H.

[Jeff K.]

I think it goes much further than merely making fun ot the cultural aspects, that is one issue.

Note we haven't put up marching groups and signs and what not. But amongst ourselves and non members who happen to come here, we do indeed discuss why the play is wrong, and more to the point, why some members feel the need to be part of the crowd. It is something of a pathetic maneuver with those who think that by going with the crowd they are somehow more sophisticated. It is some sort of pathos that we see all to often, as they will also deny Christ if the mob demands it. It is the same path.

Maybe the crowd are much happier outside the church, in that way they can easily blend in without having to take any stand. The can blithely and easity avoid any controversy and moderate themselves with what the crowd or mob of the day consider moderate.

[Jeff K.]

No, you read it correctly, but I didn't make the comment, Walden did. We aren't the same person.

H.

The differences being almost non existent, it is a common error.

[KevinG]

No, you read it correctly, but I didn't make the comment, Walden did. We aren't the same person.

H.

Right. Please forgive my misquote and assumptions.

[LDSToronto]

I think it goes much further than merely making fun ot the cultural aspects, that is one issue.

Note we haven't put up marching groups and signs and what not. But amongst ourselves and non members who happen to come here, we do indeed discuss why the play is wrong, and more to the point, why some members feel the need to be part of the crowd. It is something of a pathetic maneuver with those who think that by going with the crowd they are somehow more sophisticated. It is some sort of pathos that we see all to often, as they will also deny Christ if the mob demands it. It is the same path.

Maybe the crowd are much happier outside the church, in that way they can easily blend in without having to take any stand. The can blithely and easity avoid any controversy and moderate themselves with what the crowd or mob of the day consider moderate.

Do you believe that anyone who thinks contrary to the "Mormon Crowd" is simply going along with the "Rest of the Crowd"? And, isn't it equally possible that LDS who agree with the "Mormon Crowd" are simply going along with the "Mormon Crowd"?

Or, in addition to righteousness, do LDS have a monopoly on free thought, too?

H.

[KevinG]

I think it goes much further than merely making fun ot the cultural aspects, that is one issue.

Note we haven't put up marching groups and signs and what not. But amongst ourselves and non members who happen to come here, we do indeed discuss why the play is wrong, and more to the point, why some members feel the need to be part of the crowd. It is something of a pathetic maneuver with those who think that by going with the crowd they are somehow more sophisticated. It is some sort of pathos that we see all to often, as they will also deny Christ if the mob demands it. It is the same path.

Maybe the crowd are much happier outside the church, in that way they can easily blend in without having to take any stand. The can blithely and easity avoid any controversy and moderate themselves with what the crowd or mob of the day consider moderate.

Orthodoxy alert!

On cultural issues I think we should be open to mockery or parody or whatever you want to call it. There is a difference between a candid self-assesment and the efforts of others to marginalize or dehumanize. We don't need to be so sensitive to non-doctrinal lampoons as to become reactionary (riots over burning Korans and what not) on the other hand ousiders justifying humiliating portrayals by telling us to lighten-up is offensive too.

It is a cultures business to lampoon themselves. It is not outsiders business to mock to the point of dehumanizing- which portraying all missionaries as wide eyed and ignorant does to an extent.

BTW- Walden (Not Toronto)- "you have a persecution complex" is not a good defense for offensive behavior no matter who you use it on.

[LDSToronto]

The differences being almost non existent, it is a common error.

Please don't mistake Walden and me - it just inflates my ego to be mistaken for him, and it insults the hell out of Walden.

H.

[KevinG]

Do you believe that anyone who thinks contrary to the "Mormon Crowd" is simply going along with the "Rest of the Crowd"? And, isn't it equally possible that LDS who agree with the "Mormon Crowd" are simply going along with the "Mormon Crowd"?

Or, in addition to righteousness, do LDS have a monopoly on free thought, too?

H.

Going along with the crowd LDS style...

1 Nephi 8:26 And I also cast my eyes round about, and

beheld, on the ^aother side of the river of water, a great and ^bspacious building; and it stood as it were in the

^cair, high above the earth. 27And it was filled with people, both old and young, both

male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were

in the ^aattitude of ^bmocking and pointing their fingers towards those who

had come at and were partaking of the fruit. 28And after they had ^atasted of the fruit they were ^bashamed, because of those that were ^cscoffing at them; and they ^dfell away into forbidden paths and were lost.

There is a fine line between being open to other points of view and denying what you know to be true to appease the opinions of others. There are many critics of the LDS that would live to see Saints deny their grasp of the truth in order to justify their own critical positions. At some point mockery becomes mean, friendly criticism becomes opposition and going along becomes betrayal.

Of course Saints err on the side of caution or defensiveness. Hardly an inhuman or persecution reflex. Then again I've seen many people justify self-destruction through trying to be popular or go along with the crowd.

The positive aspects of Mormon culture (that even our critics admit) are not borne separately from our doctrines and beliefs.

[LeSellers]

it insults the **** out of Walden.

Must you profane?

Lehi

[Craig Paxton]

Until the next edition of the RM lampoons Missionaries preaching to an AIDs victim with maggots in his anus let's talk about false equivelence.

The charactor actually complains of maggots in his scrotum not anus