"Joseph Smith'S Reported Translation From The Kinderhook Plates" - Don Bradley

[Pahoran]

Thanks, Don. I look forward to seeing your presentation.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Skywalker]

Hi Craig,

Thanks for your interest, Craig.

I went through, to say the least, a crisis of faith. I became a stark nonbeliever, and even an atheist, for a few years.

My story as I wrote it up a year ago when announcing my plans to rejoin the church may be found here. The story really could use some updating, both because my account would be more definite now, my testimony has grown, and I've had further experiences along the path.

Don

Hi Don,

Long time lurker...

I'm interested in your story, but the link didn't work. Could you post it again, or fix it?

Thanks,

Skywalker

[DonBradley]

My guess is that Don has found similarity between one or more of the Kinderhook characters and those in the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (GAEL), or perhaps even the BOA translation MSS, and argues that JS used those fake translations to translate the Kinderhook plates. Therefore, it wasn’t an inspired translation, just a mistake. If I’m right, it will be interesting to see if he can make a cogent argument of this.

Well, it looks there will be surprises to go around for everyone.

Don

[DonBradley]

Let's assume that you clearly demonstrate that Joseph Smith did not attempt an inspired translation. I hope you address the fact that the LDS Church believed for years that he did, so much so that the reported attempt was included in the official History of the Church.

Just how much thinking were you doing when you wrote this? It's entirely irrelevant to the faith having divine foundations.

Cheers,

Don

[DonBradley]

Thanks, Skywalker. I appreciate your interest.

Unfortunately, I can't link to that thread directly.

However, if you Google using the search terms, in quotes, "don bradley" "being lds," you should see a thread titled "Being LDS" on another board, or perhaps just the thread "Don Bradley Rebaptized," which has a link in its second post (by ttribe) to that thread.

Don

[Nemesis]

Keep this thread on topic any more disruptions will be dealt with harshly.

Nemesis

[sjdawg]

Dear Friends,

I thought it may be of interest to many here to know that at this August's FAIR conference I'll be presenting a paper tentatively titled "Joseph Smith's Reported Translation from the Kinderhook Plates: Solving a Historical Mystery."

I'm saving the crux of the paper for the conference, but I've presented it to Craig Foster, of the FAIR board, and recently to the staff of the Joseph Smith Papers, where I've been interning since the first of the year, and gotten "wows."

Though I'll be accused of overstating by some (who haven't yet seen my evidence), I'll say this much: the critical argument based on reports of Joseph Smith translating from the Kinderhook plates will, at this year's FAIR conference, be vaporized--annihilated. Those who've seen the presentation have said it's a tour de force that will settle, once and for all, the Kinderhook plates question. And the evidence is clear and definitive enough that no honest person who sees it laid out will be able to deny the conclusions presented or again apply to this incident the longstanding critical argument, "Only a bogus a prophet translates bogus plates."

My personal journey has been a long and winding one. And I can't tell you all how thankful I am to have come to the good, good place I've arrived at in my life and faith, and to be able to contribute to understanding the Restoration's history. Until quite recently I'd never have even dreamed I'd be presenting at FAIR, much less being able to present there the results of an investigation that's both so fun and so definitively reinforces faith.

Having been once, and for some time, on the side of coming onto the boards to critique reasons to believe and to offer the reasons I then thought I had to not believe, I have been amazed at how fully I've been accepted as I've returned to my faith and to the church. The outpouring of welcomes when I announced my return here last summer overwhelmed me, and the continuing welcome, and the treatment I've received in my wards, at the Church History Library, among new friends, and everywhere, as a fellow saint--as if the past were simply washed away--moves me beyond what I can express. Thank you, all, for a second chance.

Don

If you can't get an unbiased review from the fair board I'm not sure where you would get one.

[mfbukowski]

Thanks, Skywalker. I appreciate your interest.

Unfortunately, I can't link to that thread directly.

However, if you Google using the search terms, in quotes, "don bradley" "being lds," you should see a thread titled "Being LDS" on another board, or perhaps just the thread "Don Bradley Rebaptized," which has a link in its second post (by ttribe) to that thread.

Don

Thanks.

I see remarkable parallels with my journey, both in my spiritual life history and the present conclusions which bring us both to Mormonism.

[Thinking]

It's entirely irrelevant to the faith having divine foundations.

A faith which believes to have divine foundations also believes that its first prophet has begun to translate another ancient record written on metal plates. Although he does not finish it, the initial reported attempt is included in the official history. The plates and the reported initial translation are proclaimed as evidence for the Book of Mormon.

How is this not relevant?

[Skywalker]

Thanks, Skywalker. I appreciate your interest.

Unfortunately, I can't link to that thread directly.

However, if you Google using the search terms, in quotes, "don bradley" "being lds," you should see a thread titled "Being LDS" on another board, or perhaps just the thread "Don Bradley Rebaptized," which has a link in its second post (by ttribe) to that thread.

Don

Thanks, Don.

I'm assuming you're "onandagus?"

I really enjoyed your story. Do you have a blog somewhere where you've posted this? I've read so many "exit stories" from RfM and the like, it would be nice to have an "exit and re-entry" story out there.

Just a thought

Thanks,

Skywalker

[Fifth Columnist]

Somebody once wrote

I sincerely hope that your annihilation doesn't depend on the "he wasn't acting as a prophet" defense.

I think it does. The new argument will be that Joseph performed a non-revelatory translation (Don has said before that he discovered an eyewitness to Joseph's translation). If so, then this will hurt the current preferred critical argument (Joseph claimed revelation and it was fake) and apologetic argument (Joseph didn't translate anything; William Clayton was just mistaken when he said he did).

Don, you asked the question why Joseph associated the writings with a descendant of Ham. I wonder if it has something to do with the Masonic traditions that the rites descended from Adam through Ham? Maybe something from Clinton Bartholomew's presentation at MHA shines some light on this. For example, perhaps some some of the symbols on the forged plates were Masonic in nature, thus leading Joseph down that road. It could be that the forgers were Masons thus explaining the presence of Masonic symbols on the plates.

[DonBradley]

A faith which believes to have divine foundations also believes that its first prophet has begun to translate another ancient record written on metal plates. Although he does not finish it, the initial reported attempt is included in the official history. The plates and the reported initial translation are proclaimed as evidence for the Book of Mormon.

How is this not relevant?

How is it relevant? The Church has no foundational claim that the History of the Church compiled by George A. Smith, et al. is inerrant. As you are undoubtedly aware, the Church doesn't even believe its canon is infallible, much less its non-canonical 19th century compilations....

I have no interest in chasing down all the red herrings that can be hatched here. What I'll be addressing--and demolishing--will be the substantive critical argument. If you think you can get some traction afterward with the peripheral spin-off argument "The church is not true because the compilers of its history put in that Joseph Smith translated from forged plates," all I can say is, good luck with that.

Don

[DonBradley]

If you can't get an unbiased review from the fair board I'm not sure where you would get one.

Clever!

I don't really care whether the FAIR board gives it an unbiased review. I care more whether potential readers/watchers like you give it one.

BTW, Mike Reed, who has done considerable work on the cross in Mormonism and on Mormonism and Freemasonry and who is a former FAIR-ite and present nonbeliever, has seen a version of the presentation I'm going to be giving. Perhaps he would better qualify for you as an unbiased reviewer? If so, see his comments above.

Don

[DonBradley]

I think it does. The new argument will be that Joseph performed a non-revelatory translation (Don has said before that he discovered an eyewitness to Joseph's translation). If so, then this will hurt the current preferred critical argument (Joseph claimed revelation and it was fake) and apologetic argument (Joseph didn't translate anything; William Clayton was just mistaken when he said he did).

Don, you asked the question why Joseph associated the writings with a descendant of Ham. I wonder if it has something to do with the Masonic traditions that the rites descended from Adam through Ham? Maybe something from Clinton Bartholomew's presentation at MHA shines some light on this. For example, perhaps some some of the symbols on the forged plates were Masonic in nature, thus leading Joseph down that road. It could be that the forgers were Masons thus explaining the presence of Masonic symbols on the plates.

All in due time, 5th!

Don

[DonBradley]

MFB and Skywalker,

Thank you! I'm glad my story resonates. I should, indeed, put it up on a blog, in polished and updated form.

Don

[LeSellers]

Thank you! I'm glad my story resonates. I should, indeed, put it up on a blog, in polished and updated form.

Then no one will believe you because you will have changed your story, and we all know that if you polish the account, you are lying about it.

Lehi

[cdowis]

A faith which believes to have divine foundations also believes that its first prophet has begun to translate another ancient record written on metal plates.

I don't believe it. Any Mormons who believe this, please raise your hand. The relevance is that we have the antimormons telling us what we "believe".

[Skywalker]

MFB and Skywalker,

Thank you! I'm glad my story resonates. I should, indeed, put it up on a blog, in polished and updated form.

Don

Let us know when you do. I look forward to it.

[cdowis]

In case anyone is interested......this is what I think.

This is just another "north star" story. People kept bothering JS about where the ten lost tribes were. Finally, one night when someone asked him for the hundreth time, he pointed to the sky, to the north star. It was just a nonsense statement to get them to stop bothering him.

I think the same thing happened with the kinderhook plates. "Joseph, when are you going to finish translating the plates. What do they say."

Finally he told one of these nuisance questioners his north star answer -- "Yes, I'm finished. It's all about ham, etc etc" People stopped asking and he could get on with the real work.

This explanation tells us why there is no evidence of translation, and why Clayton makes a journal entry -- it was third hand information, and the matter was finally settled. JS was famous for his jokes, and this joke served its purpose.

[mfbukowski]

In case anyone is interested......this is what I think.

This is just another "north star" story. People kept bothering JS about where the ten lost tribes were. Finally, one night when someone asked him for the hundreth time, he pointed to the sky, to the north star. It was just a nonsense statement to get them to stop bothering him.

I think the same thing happened with the kinderhook plates. "Joseph, when are you going to finish translating the plates. What do they say."

Finally he told one of these nuisance questioners his north star answer -- "Yes, I'm finished. It's all about ham, etc etc" People stopped asking and he could get on with the real work.

This explanation tells us why there is no evidence of translation, and why Clayton makes a journal entry -- it was third hand information, and the matter was finally settled. JS was famous for his jokes, and this joke served its purpose.

It must be tremendously difficult to have people walking around writing down every word that comes out of your mouth, and then "playing telephone" with the results, especially when you hear the story back after the 15th reiteration of what 15 people thought they heard somebody say.

Heck I have a hard enough time figuring out what my wife is saying and I have known her 30 years!

[cinepro]

Honestly, the weirdest thing about the story of the Kinderhook plates is that the only thing that surprises LDS is that the artifacts were fraudulent. No one raises an eyebrow at the plates having been found in the first place, or the claimed origin and contents of the plates.

Take cdowis's "north star" theory (i.e. Joseph was just joking). Would it be possible to have such a theory if the plates hadn't been proven fraudulent? Where were the LDS in the 1840's who doubted the plates and their purported meaning?

If the plates had been permanently lost and were never able to be scientifically tested, everything about them from their finding, their presentation to Joseph, and Joseph's ability to discern an ancient and theologically important meaning from them, would fit comfortably in the LDS history of that period with no need for "north star" theories.

It would be the critics suggesting he made it up, not the believers.

[Fifth Columnist]

In case anyone is interested......this is what I think.

This is just another "north star" story. People kept bothering JS about where the ten lost tribes were. Finally, one night when someone asked him for the hundreth time, he pointed to the sky, to the north star. It was just a nonsense statement to get them to stop bothering him.

I think the same thing happened with the kinderhook plates. "Joseph, when are you going to finish translating the plates. What do they say."

Finally he told one of these nuisance questioners his north star answer -- "Yes, I'm finished. It's all about ham, etc etc" People stopped asking and he could get on with the real work.

Interesting theory. I guess N.C. Saxton must have been continually pestering him about this question because Joseph said:

"And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the hystory of our nation pestalence hail famine and earthquake will sweep the wicked off this generation from off the face of this Land to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country"

http://beta.josephsm...-january-1833#4 (starts at the bottom of the page).

[cinepro]

Interesting theory. I guess N.C. Saxton must have been continually pestering him about this question because Joseph said:

"And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the hystory of our nation pestalence hail famine and earthquake will sweep the wicked off this generation from off the face of this Land to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country"

http://beta.josephsm...-january-1833#4 (starts at the bottom of the page).

This comment was actually taken from Joseph's stand-up comedy routine at the Red Brick Comedy Store in Nauvoo on April 11, 1843.

When weighing Joseph's comments about such things, we need to keep in mind that he was a kidder!

[Mars]

I am invariably misquoted on something I never should have said in the first place.

[wenglund]

It's entirely irrelevant to the faith having divine foundations.

Exactly. This is key to much, if not all, of the criticism raised against the church.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-