"Joseph Smith'S Reported Translation From The Kinderhook Plates" - Don Bradley

[LeSellers]

I've always pronounced it as in "wind", not that my opinion matters one whit of worth of Kinderhook criticism.

Since I wind my watch every morning, I see no difference between the pronunciaton of Kinderhood in parallel with "blind" or "wind".

Lehi

[cinepro]

Is it Kinderhook as in blind, or as in wind?

I've always heard it pronounced like "Kindergarten" (i.e. "wind" that blows through the trees).

I agree the Kinderhook Plates are pretty minor concern in the big scheme of things. But if someone were trying to make a case for Joseph Smith having a talent for misidentifying the true history of places and objects, this could certainly be an exhibit in that argument.

[Mars]

Just to be clear, I didn't mean "imagination" as in "making stuff up out of thin air". I meant it as "thinking creatively to see things in a new way".

For example, my theory of the Kinderhook Plates sprang from my imagination, but it is fully supported by the data; it isn't something I "made up" but instead it is a creative way of reinterpreting something that might not be faith promoting to make it more aligned with a faithful view of Church history.

Granted, my theory can be easily dismissed because of the tenuous nature and timing of Joseph's involvement with the plates. But had he actually produced a "Book of Ham" from the plates (with the subsequent canonization of said book), I can guarantee you my theory would be very popular and have it's own entry on the FairWiki.

Anytime someone thinks of a new explanation or theory, it's a good use of imagination, and the best apologetic arguments can start out this way. Obviously, the worst ones too.

Fair enough.

[Craig Paxton]

Don are you going to throw Clayton under the bus? Cuz if you do then a whole boat load of his other writing go under the bus with him i.e. offical version of the first vision circa 1838, published 1842 written by Wm Clayton to name just one.

[Chris Smith]

Don are you going to throw Clayton under the bus? Cuz if you do then a whole boat load of his other writing go under the bus with him i.e. offical version of the first vision circa 1838, published 1842 written by Wm Clayton to name just one.

From what I know of Don's paper, the answer to your question is "no". His defense follows a different tack than the usual FARMS/FAIR stuff on this issue, in that he takes Clayton's account quite seriously.

[Uncertain]

Dear Friends,

I thought it may be of interest to many here to know that at this August's FAIR conference I'll be presenting a paper tentatively titled "Joseph Smith's Reported Translation from the Kinderhook Plates: Solving a Historical Mystery."

I'm saving the crux of the paper for the conference, but I've presented it to Craig Foster, of the FAIR board, and recently to the staff of the Joseph Smith Papers, where I've been interning since the first of the year, and gotten "wows."

Though I'll be accused of overstating by some (who haven't yet seen my evidence), I'll say this much: the critical argument based on reports of Joseph Smith translating from the Kinderhook plates will, at this year's FAIR conference, be vaporized--annihilated. Those who've seen the presentation have said it's a tour de force that will settle, once and for all, the Kinderhook plates question. And the evidence is clear and definitive enough that no honest person who sees it laid out will be able to deny the conclusions presented or again apply to this incident the longstanding critical argument, "Only a bogus a prophet translates bogus plates."

My personal journey has been a long and winding one. And I can't tell you all how thankful I am to have come to the good, good place I've arrived at in my life and faith, and to be able to contribute to understanding the Restoration's history. Until quite recently I'd never have even dreamed I'd be presenting at FAIR, much less being able to present there the results of an investigation that's both so fun and so definitively reinforces faith.

Having been once, and for some time, on the side of coming onto the boards to critique reasons to believe and to offer the reasons I then thought I had to not believe, I have been amazed at how fully I've been accepted as I've returned to my faith and to the church. The outpouring of welcomes when I announced my return here last summer overwhelmed me, and the continuing welcome, and the treatment I've received in my wards, at the Church History Library, among new friends, and everywhere, as a fellow saint--as if the past were simply washed away--moves me beyond what I can express. Thank you, all, for a second chance.

Don

Hi Don,

What I want to know is do you thrust the critical argument under the plates of mount doom . (obscure reference for the win!)

If I had to guess based on previous debates you were involved in concerning the kinderhook plates I bet you argue JS did attempt a translation of the kinderhook plates but a purely secular translation. Hence the fact he got it wrong has no bearing on his status as a prophet. Just that it probably would not have been to wise to hire JS as a secular translator. Translating gibberish into "descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharoh" using a purely secular translation does not give a person great confidence in Josephs secular translating skills . Of course I am just guessing what your argument is going to be I could be way wrong.

If I am right hopefully I did not prematurely spill the beans .

Best,

Uncertain

[Deborah]

Looking forward to this presentation. I plan my days off for Fair Conference in January of every year. Highlight of the year. Well, you can see how exciting my life is. I don't mean that to sound like the conference isn't exciting, just that my life isn't.

[Hamba Tuhan]

But, since the antidote to lost faith is imagination....

Funny, I thought the antidote to lost faith was personal experience.

[DonBradley]

In the words of the Prophet, 'For friends at first are friends again at last.'

[DonBradley]

Looking forward to this presentation. I plan my days off for Fair Conference in January of every year. Highlight of the year. Well, you can see how exciting my life is. I don't mean that to sound like the conference isn't exciting, just that my life isn't.

Then let's hope solving the Kinderhook plates mystery makes your FAIR just a little more exciting!

Don

[DonBradley]

Kinderhook was only one of several straws that broke the back of my faith, I'll look forward to your presentation which I'll assume will be available online at some time in the future.

Of more interest to me is your personal journey. From your post I'm guessing that you went through a crisis of faith but have been able to put "humpty" together again. I would love to read this personal story if available.

Hi Craig,

Thanks for your interest, Craig.

I went through, to say the least, a crisis of faith. I became a stark nonbeliever, and even an atheist, for a few years.

My story as I wrote it up a year ago when announcing my plans to rejoin the church may be found here. The story really could use some updating, both because my account would be more definite now, my testimony has grown, and I've had further experiences along the path.

Don

[DonBradley]

You've never been anything but a gentleman no matter what your position that I can remember so you deserve nothing but good in my opinion.

Aw, thanks Cal!

Don

[DonBradley]

Hi Don,

What I want to know is do you thrust the critical argument under the plates of mount doom . (obscure reference for the win!)

Ohhh yeah. This critical argument is getting thrust under the tectonic plates and buried under Mount Doom. Or maybe thrown into it!

That which is hyperbole in one context may be and often is the strictest truth in another.

Don

[Jaybear]

Then let's hope solving the Kinderhook plates mystery makes your FAIR just a little more exciting!

Don

Just to be clear, it is only a mystery if one assume that Smith actually had the ability to translate ancient manuscripts.

To the non believer, the plates are part of a consistent pattern of Smith convincing his followers that he has stumbled upon ancient historical treasures: seer stones, buried treasures, golden plates, breastplates, Zelph's bones, Adam's alter, Abrahamic writings.

That said, since you don't have a reputation for being hyperbolic, I am actually quite surprised that would make such a bold claim. "The critical argument based on reports of Joseph Smith translating from the Kinderhook plates will, at this year's FAIR conference, be vaporized--annihilated."

I will certainly stay tuned.

[mfbukowski]

Since I wind my watch every morning, I see no difference between the pronunciaton of Kinderhood in parallel with "blind" or "wind".

Lehi

That's because you don't blow a lot of hot air.

[mfbukowski]

Fair enough.

The proof is in the pudding. I suspect this pudding will not prove much.

[Mars]

"Fair enough" is what I say when I want to politely exit the argument/discussion.

[mfbukowski]

"Fair enough" is what I say when I want to politely exit the argument/discussion.

Fair enough.

[Mars]

Well played.

[mfbukowski]

Hi Craig,

Thanks for your interest, Craig.

I went through, to say the least, a crisis of faith. I became a stark nonbeliever, and even an atheist, for a few years.

My story as I wrote it up a year ago when announcing my plans to rejoin the church may be found here. The story really could use some updating, both because my account would be more definite now, my testimony has grown, and I've had further experiences along the path.

Don

Don

Having also been an atheist who "got better" I would love to read your account, but the link doesn't seem to work.

From the error message I received, I suspect it is because it was posted at the Forum Which Shall Not Be Named here, otherwise known as the trailer park.

If that is the case, if you just post the name of the thread, I could find it for myself, or if you re-post it in another place, it would be great if you could provide another link.

I'd really like to read it!

[LeSellers]

That's because you don't blow a lot of hot air.

That may be among the ten nicest things any one has ever told me.

Lehi

[David T]

Here's hoping this year's "Game Changer" has more staying power than last year's.

[Nomad]

Dear Friends,

I thought it may be of interest to many here to know that at this August's FAIR conference I'll be presenting a paper tentatively titled "Joseph Smith's Reported Translation from the Kinderhook Plates: Solving a Historical Mystery."

I'm saving the crux of the paper for the conference, but I've presented it to Craig Foster, of the FAIR board, and recently to the staff of the Joseph Smith Papers, where I've been interning since the first of the year, and gotten "wows."

Though I'll be accused of overstating by some (who haven't yet seen my evidence), I'll say this much: the critical argument based on reports of Joseph Smith translating from the Kinderhook plates will, at this year's FAIR conference, be vaporized--annihilated. Those who've seen the presentation have said it's a tour de force that will settle, once and for all, the Kinderhook plates question. And the evidence is clear and definitive enough that no honest person who sees it laid out will be able to deny the conclusions presented or again apply to this incident the longstanding critical argument, "Only a bogus a prophet translates bogus plates."

My personal journey has been a long and winding one. And I can't tell you all how thankful I am to have come to the good, good place I've arrived at in my life and faith, and to be able to contribute to understanding the Restoration's history. Until quite recently I'd never have even dreamed I'd be presenting at FAIR, much less being able to present there the results of an investigation that's both so fun and so definitively reinforces faith.

Having been once, and for some time, on the side of coming onto the boards to critique reasons to believe and to offer the reasons I then thought I had to not believe, I have been amazed at how fully I've been accepted as I've returned to my faith and to the church. The outpouring of welcomes when I announced my return here last summer overwhelmed me, and the continuing welcome, and the treatment I've received in my wards, at the Church History Library, among new friends, and everywhere, as a fellow saint--as if the past were simply washed away--moves me beyond what I can express. Thank you, all, for a second chance.

Don

Sounds very interesting. I look forward to it.

[Nomad]

Here's hoping this year's "Game Changer" has more staying power than last year's.

This is an odd statement.

I assume you’re referring to the Schryver KEP presentation from 2010. Do you mean to imply that Schryver’s findings have no “staying power?” If not, why not? I must have missed the rebuttals to those findings. Could you please link me to them?

Thanks.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This is an odd statement.

I assume you’re referring to the Schryver KEP presentation from 2010. Do you mean to imply that Schryver’s findings have no “staying power?” If not, why not? I must have missed the rebuttals to those findings. Could you please link me to them?

Thanks.

Out of all the talk of about what amounts to, it seems, that Will's presentation was so poor I have yet to see anything else on the matter. It would seem that all that talk is just that.