DonBradley Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Dear Friends,I thought it may be of interest to many here to know that at this August's FAIR conference I'll be presenting a paper tentatively titled "Joseph Smith's Reported Translation from the Kinderhook Plates: Solving a Historical Mystery."I'm saving the crux of the paper for the conference, but I've presented it to Craig Foster, of the FAIR board, and recently to the staff of the Joseph Smith Papers, where I've been interning since the first of the year, and gotten "wows." Though I'll be accused of overstating by some (who haven't yet seen my evidence), I'll say this much: the critical argument based on reports of Joseph Smith translating from the Kinderhook plates will, at this year's FAIR conference, be vaporized--annihilated. Those who've seen the presentation have said it's a tour de force that will settle, once and for all, the Kinderhook plates question. And the evidence is clear and definitive enough that no honest person who sees it laid out will be able to deny the conclusions presented or again apply to this incident the longstanding critical argument, "Only a bogus a prophet translates bogus plates."My personal journey has been a long and winding one. And I can't tell you all how thankful I am to have come to the good, good place I've arrived at in my life and faith, and to be able to contribute to understanding the Restoration's history. Until quite recently I'd never have even dreamed I'd be presenting at FAIR, much less being able to present there the results of an investigation that's both so fun and so definitively reinforces faith. Having been once, and for some time, on the side of coming onto the boards to critique reasons to believe and to offer the reasons I then thought I had to not believe, I have been amazed at how fully I've been accepted as I've returned to my faith and to the church. The outpouring of welcomes when I announced my return here last summer overwhelmed me, and the continuing welcome, and the treatment I've received in my wards, at the Church History Library, among new friends, and everywhere, as a fellow saint--as if the past were simply washed away--moves me beyond what I can express. Thank you, all, for a second chance.Don Link to comment
Mars Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 I'm curious, Don, where have the critics claimed the translation was this whole time? I'm aware of a journal entry (or something like it) that went along the lines of "Translated those crazy Kinderhook plates today!" that critics point to as evidence that Joseph Smith produced a translation, but has anyone ever found that translation? Link to comment
Anijen Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Thanks for the info. Although I am unable to attend I will look forward to reading it. Link to comment
DonBradley Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 I'm curious, Don, where have the critics claimed the translation was this whole time? I'm aware of a journal entry (or something like it) that went along the lines of "Translated those crazy Kinderhook plates today!" that critics point to as evidence that Joseph Smith produced a translation, but has anyone ever found that translation?The William Clayton journal entry is the big evidence. Clayton says Joseph translated and that he gave certain content he'd gotten off of the plates. Parley P. Pratt, writing to a cousin six days later, says a bit that overlaps with the Clayton entry (i.e., that the man the Kinderhook plates were about had Ham as his ancestor), though he doesn't say this came from Joseph. Beyond those documents, I'm not aware of any that give contents of what Joseph is supposed to have translated.Don Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 I have been amazed at how fully I've been accepted as I've returned to my faith and to the church. The outpouring of welcomes when I announced my return here last summer overwhelmed me, and the continuing welcome, and the treatment I've received in my wards, at the Church History Library, among new friends, and everywhere, as a fellow saint--as if the past were simply washed away--moves me beyond what I can express.In the words of the Prophet, 'For friends at first are friends again at last.' Link to comment
cinepro Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Interesting. Sounds like a game changer! Link to comment
DonBradley Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 Indeed, Cinepro. Of course, it's easy to throw such terms around. But the proof is in the pudding. Come August, see if I'm guilty here of false advertising or if I deliver exactly as promised.Don Link to comment
Kevin Christensen Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 I'll be very interested to see what you've done. For me, one of the chief pleasures and rewards of activity and persistence in my LDS life is the periodic arrival of extraordinary and unexpected insights. I've gone through so many in my 57 years on this planet, that I've come to expect pleasant surprises now and then.Kevin ChristensenPittsburgh, PA Link to comment
Craig Paxton Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Dear Friends,I thought it may be of interest to many here to know that at this August's FAIR conference I'll be presenting a paper tentatively titled "Joseph Smith's Reported Translation from the Kinderhook Plates: Solving a Historical Mystery."I'm saving the crux of the paper for the conference, but I've presented it to Craig Foster, of the FAIR board, and recently to the staff of the Joseph Smith Papers, where I've been interning since the first of the year, and gotten "wows." Though I'll be accused of overstating by some (who haven't yet seen my evidence), I'll say this much: the critical argument based on reports of Joseph Smith translating from the Kinderhook plates will, at this year's FAIR conference, be vaporized--annihilated. Those who've seen the presentation have said it's a tour de force that will settle, once and for all, the Kinderhook plates question. And the evidence is clear and definitive enough that no honest person who sees it laid out will be able to deny the conclusions presented or again apply to this incident the longstanding critical argument, "Only a bogus a prophet translates bogus plates."My personal journey has been a long and winding one. And I can't tell you all how thankful I am to have come to the good, good place I've arrived at in my life and faith, and to be able to contribute to understanding the Restoration's history. Until quite recently I'd never have even dreamed I'd be presenting at FAIR, much less being able to present there the results of an investigation that's both so fun and so definitively reinforces faith. Having been once, and for some time, on the side of coming onto the boards to critique reasons to believe and to offer the reasons I then thought I had to not believe, I have been amazed at how fully I've been accepted as I've returned to my faith and to the church. The outpouring of welcomes when I announced my return here last summer overwhelmed me, and the continuing welcome, and the treatment I've received in my wards, at the Church History Library, among new friends, and everywhere, as a fellow saint--as if the past were simply washed away--moves me beyond what I can express. Thank you, all, for a second chance.DonKinderhook was only one of several straws that broke the back of my faith, I'll look forward to your presentation which I'll assume will be available online at some time in the future.Of more interest to me is your personal journey. From your post I'm guessing that you went through a crisis of faith but have been able to put "humpty" together again. I would love to read this personal story if available. Link to comment
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Kinderhook was only one of several straws that broke the back of my faith, I'll look forward to your presentation which I'll assume will be available online at some time in the future.Of more I personally find this interesting. Of course we will have to wait to see what Don has prepared. But I am curious, what you think the stongest points are for the kinderhool plates. I personally think the evidence is very strong that JS really had no association with teh KHP in terms of translation. Link to comment
MAsh Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Don, I'm very much looking forward to this presentation. So glad you decided to share this at the upcoming FAIR Conference.Mike Link to comment
cinepro Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 I personally find this interesting. Of course we will have to wait to see what Don has prepared. But I am curious, what you think the stongest points are for the kinderhool plates. I personally think the evidence is very strong that JS really had no association with teh KHP in terms of translation.FWIW, The Kinderhook Plates were long discussed in these past threads:Kinderhook and CriticsKinderhooked?The discussions make more sense if you know something about the plates.If any new data or perspective can be brought to bear on the subject, I look forward to it.To answer Mola's question, the tough point to get around is William Clayton's statement:I have seen 6 brass plates which were found in Adams County ... President Joseph has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found & he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven & earth An Intimate Chronicle: The Journals of William Clayton, ed. George D. Smith, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1991, p. 100;The key question is why did William Clayton write this in his journal? The most logical answer would be that he was accurately telling the story of what happened. Joseph Smith looked at the plates and instead of discerning their fraudulent nature, he identified them as containing a history of Ham. Hopefully Don has found some new data or perspectives that help us understand Clayton's claim in a more faith-promoting context.But, since the antidote to lost faith is imagination, I offer this theory in advance of Don's presentation for those who are disturbed by Clayton's claim:The Cinepro Faith Promoting Theory of the Kinderhook Plates In 1843, God desired to restore the writings of Ham, to be paired with the yet to be canonized "Book of Abraham". In order to bring this about, he inspired three men with the idea to forge ancient metal plates. In the process of their forgery, the men were inspired to inscribe actual ancient writings conveying the text of the actual "Book of Ham" (the only existing version of which is buried in desert sands and previous attempts by the Lord to have them "discovered" and brought to Joseph Smith having failed).Thus, upon inspection of the assumed "forgery", Joseph was able to accurately identify the writings as those of Ham. The forgers, totally unaware of the inspired nature of their writings, were none the wiser and thus by the weak things of the world was another great thing brought to pass. Faith preserved. Link to comment
Mark Beesley Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 The key question is why did William Clayton write this in his journal? The most logical answer would be that he was accurately telling the story of what happened. Joseph Smith looked at the plates and instead of discerning their fraudulent nature, he identified them as containing a history of Ham.William Clayton was oblivious to Joseph's keen sarcastic wit. Clayton brought the plates to Joseph, and the following exchange ensued:Clatyon: Look at these ancient plates Joseph. What do you s'pose they are?Joseph: They smell.Clayton: No, seriously, they were just uncovered in a grave up north, near Kinderhook.Joseph: Yes, really, they smell. Or maybe Emma is just fryin' up some bacon.Clayton: Get serious Joseph. Enquiring minds want to know. What do the plates say.Joseph: It's the story of ham, ya know, it's history and all.Clayton: The history of Ham?Joseph: No, ham.Clayton: That's what I said, Ham.Joseph: No, you said Ham, I said ham.Clayton: I'm confused.Joseph: That's whay I love you so much. Why don't you go finish updating the journal . . . and grab a slice of bacon on your way out.[Neither copyrighted,nor trademarked. Feel free to plagiarize.] Link to comment
Palerider Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Dear Friends,I thought it may be of interest to many here to know that at this August's FAIR conference I'll be presenting a paper tentatively titled "Joseph Smith's Reported Translation from the Kinderhook Plates: Solving a Historical Mystery."I'm saving the crux of the paper for the conference, but I've presented it to Craig Foster, of the FAIR board, and recently to the staff of the Joseph Smith Papers, where I've been interning since the first of the year, and gotten "wows." Though I'll be accused of overstating by some (who haven't yet seen my evidence), I'll say this much: the critical argument based on reports of Joseph Smith translating from the Kinderhook plates will, at this year's FAIR conference, be vaporized--annihilated. Those who've seen the presentation have said it's a tour de force that will settle, once and for all, the Kinderhook plates question. And the evidence is clear and definitive enough that no honest person who sees it laid out will be able to deny the conclusions presented or again apply to this incident the longstanding critical argument, "Only a bogus a prophet translates bogus plates."My personal journey has been a long and winding one. And I can't tell you all how thankful I am to have come to the good, good place I've arrived at in my life and faith, and to be able to contribute to understanding the Restoration's history. Until quite recently I'd never have even dreamed I'd be presenting at FAIR, much less being able to present there the results of an investigation that's both so fun and so definitively reinforces faith. Having been once, and for some time, on the side of coming onto the boards to critique reasons to believe and to offer the reasons I then thought I had to not believe, I have been amazed at how fully I've been accepted as I've returned to my faith and to the church. The outpouring of welcomes when I announced my return here last summer overwhelmed me, and the continuing welcome, and the treatment I've received in my wards, at the Church History Library, among new friends, and everywhere, as a fellow saint--as if the past were simply washed away--moves me beyond what I can express. Thank you, all, for a second chance.DonI find it enlightening that in your case (now that you have returned to the fold) most here will see your "crisis of faith" as one growing out of your integrity for the respect of truth. Interesting because a certain number here seem to believe that no such principle exists and that your only reason for criticizing the church in the first place would have grown out of your desire to commit sin (if you weren't already involved in some sort of deep wickedness) or lead a more liberal lifestyle.I'm glad you are able to put those misguided creatures to shame........ Sorry for the derail. Link to comment
Duncan Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Don, you are amazing! looking forward to your presentation! Link to comment
Calm Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Having been once, and for some time, on the side of coming onto the boards to critique reasons to believe and to offer the reasons I then thought I had to not believe, I have been amazed at how fully I've been accepted as I've returned to my faith and to the church. The outpouring of welcomes when I announced my return here last summer overwhelmed me, and the continuing welcome, and the treatment I've received in my wards, at the Church History Library, among new friends, and everywhere, as a fellow saint--as if the past were simply washed away--moves me beyond what I can express. Thank you, all, for a second chance.DonYou've never been anything but a gentleman no matter what your position that I can remember so you deserve nothing but good in my opinion. Link to comment
ttribe Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Congratulations Don. I look forward to hearing more about this. Link to comment
Joseph Antley Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 I'll be there this year and am looking forward to it. Link to comment
Mars Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 But, since the antidote to lost faith is imagination, Unnecessary. Link to comment
bookofmormontruth Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 I don't know you Don, but congratulations and welcome back! Link to comment
Mortal Man Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 I thought it may be of interest to many here to know that at this August's FAIR conference I'll be presenting a paper tentatively titled "Joseph Smith's Reported Translation from the Kinderhook Plates: Solving a Historical Mystery."I'm looking forward to your presentation Don. Link to comment
cinepro Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Unnecessary.Just to be clear, I didn't mean "imagination" as in "making stuff up out of thin air". I meant it as "thinking creatively to see things in a new way".For example, my theory of the Kinderhook Plates sprang from my imagination, but it is fully supported by the data; it isn't something I "made up" but instead it is a creative way of reinterpreting something that might not be faith promoting to make it more aligned with a faithful view of Church history. Granted, my theory can be easily dismissed because of the tenuous nature and timing of Joseph's involvement with the plates. But had he actually produced a "Book of Ham" from the plates (with the subsequent canonization of said book), I can guarantee you my theory would be very popular and have it's own entry on the FairWiki.Anytime someone thinks of a new explanation or theory, it's a good use of imagination, and the best apologetic arguments can start out this way. Obviously, the worst ones too. Link to comment
Ariarates Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Personally, I think the Kinderhook plates are no smoking gun by far. Are there serious critics who do? All we really have is Clayton's single, isolated statement (the Pratt reference was new to me, must pray about that tonight). Not enough for me to draw conclusions. How anyone can get into a crisis of faith over that is beyond me. That said, there is one mystery surrounding the Kinderhook plates that I haven't been able to clear up yet:Is it Kinderhook as in blind, or as in wind? Link to comment
Nofear Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Personally, I think the Kinderhook plates are no smoking gun by far. Are there serious critics who do? All we really have is Clayton's single, isolated statement (the Pratt reference was new to me, must pray about that tonight). Not enough for me to draw conclusions. How anyone can get into a crisis of faith over that is beyond me. That said, there is one mystery surrounding the Kinderhook plates that I haven't been able to clear up yet:Is it Kinderhook as in blind, or as in wind?I've always pronounced it as in "wind", not that my opinion matters one whit of worth of Kinderhook criticism. Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.