"Joseph Smith'S Reported Translation From The Kinderhook Plates" - Don Bradley

[cinepro]

None of them apply. The pictured event falls outside the scope of spiritual gifts (which scope is fixed by the intent and purpose of the gospel). You may have known this were you the least bit familiar with spiritual gifts and the intent and purpose of the gospel.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Again we're back to square one. I fully recognize all the different reasons we have to explain how our leaders can be duped, tricked, lied to or otherwise deceived without having any spiritual assistance to detect it (in other words, the ways in which our leaders are just like every other person on earth who doesn't have the Priesthood or authority in the Church).

I was only saying it would be awesome if they did have some sort of spiritual guidance on matters such as these, and based on the teachings of the Church and the scriptures about discernment, I'm not surprised when Church members over assume.

Although one would have to wonder why the gift of discernment wouldn't be available to Church leaders when making decisions about the ways in which Church funds should be spent.

[wenglund]

Again we're back to square one. I fully recognize all the different reasons we have to explain how our leaders can be duped, tricked, lied to or otherwise deceived without having any spiritual assistance to detect it (in other words, the ways in which our leaders are just like every other person on earth who doesn't have the Priesthood or authority in the Church).

I was only saying it would be awesome if they did have some sort of spiritual guidance on matters such as these, and based on the teachings of the Church and the scriptures about discernment, I'm not surprised when Church members over assume.

Although one would have to wonder why the gift of discernment wouldn't be available to Church leaders when making decisions about the ways in which Church funds should be spent.

I don't know if this discussion has come full circle or just stood still. You seem no closer to understanding the workings of the spirit than when we began. Here we have a guy who evidently instead of concerning himself with how he doesn't utilize now days the gifts of the spirit in spiritual matters, he is sticking his nose in the business of the prophet and concerning himself about about whether the prophet aught to have spiritual gifts in a secular matter that happened over 25 years ago. Some people you just can't reach.

But, lest Jaybear gets his sensibilities ruffled, I am not insulting cinepro. I am treating him to the same kind of sarcastic criticism that he has subjected my faith and leaders to for many years.

Besides, none of this will have the least impact on cinepro. He is expectantly impervious to his own medicine. Naysayers of things LDS tend to be very open to giving criticism, but also very closed to receiving it--as evident by the lack of progress in his and my exchange.

Be that as it may, this will be my last comment in this thread on this tangent, say what others will.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

-continued-

WHO WAS THERE?

The people involved in the discovery of the plates include two of the men in on the fraud, Wiley and Fugate (evidently Whinton wasn't at the excavation at the time of the discovery). Others not in on the fraud, who were there at the dig, included: W.P. Harris, G.W.F. Ward, W. Longnecker, Fayette Grubb, Ira S. Curtis, Geo. Deckenson, and J.R. Sharp. These men all signed the certificate declaring the discovery of the plates. A Mr. Marsh was later claimed to have been there by Fugate.

Of the 10 named men, two were LDS (Sharp and Marsh). This means that six of the eight men who were not in on the fraud, and who were defrauded, or in other words the majority of men involved in the discovery, were not LDS, thus suggesting that the "money digging" fraud may have been intended to be perpetrated on more than just the LDS faith.

-continued-

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

For George's benefit, thus far in the brief rendition of part of the story (from the beginning of excavation to discovery of the plates) there has been discrepancies/inconsistencies in the historical data regarding when the digging began, why the dig was undertaken, why the digging first stopped, the depth at which the hole was initially and later dug, who inscribed the "hieroglyphs," how and where the plates were put into the hole, who exactly discovered he plates, and who was there when the plates were discovered.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[cinepro]

he is sticking his nose in the business of the prophet and concerning himself about about whether the prophet aught to have spiritual gifts in a secular matter that happened over 25 years ago.

Can you explain to me how the disposition of tithing funds is not a "spiritual" matter? And should I assume that because this particular case of non-discernment happened 25 years ago that something has changed in the meantime? If so, what?

And, as a tithe-payer, should the non-discernment of Church leaders make me feel better about the closed books, or worse?

[cdowis]

Can you explain to me how the disposition of tithing funds is not a "spiritual" matter? And should I assume that because this particular case of non-discernment happened 25 years ago that something has changed in the meantime? If so, what?

And, as a tithe-payer, should the non-discernment of Church leaders make me feel better about the closed books, or worse?

Perhaps you should read the account of the brother of Jared when he asked the Lord how they would provide light in the ships when they were totally enclosed. In that case he gave an answer that was specifically approved by the Lord, but he still gave his own answer.

In the case of tithing funds, the Lord has given us the three (or, four) fold mission of the church. Tithing money is expended in each of these areas, and the Lord gave general guidelines but the leaders need to decided for themselves how to divide up the funds, and specific use.

You can be assured that no money is expended outside those missions of the church, and those decisions are made by wise men who are inspired by the Lord. Not infallible, but lead by intelligence, wisdom, experience, and the spirit.

[wenglund]

It may be of interest to some to query where the fraudsters may have derived the "ancient characters" they etched onto the plates.

The characters were described as follows: "There are four lines of characters or hieroglyphics on each; on one side of the plates are parallel lines running lengthwise. A few of the characters resemble, in their form, the Roman capitals of our alphabet -- for instance, the capital B and X appear very distinct. In addition, there are rude representations of three human heads on one of the plates, the largest in the middle; from this head proceeds marks or rays, resembling those which usually surround the head of Christ, in the pictorial representations of his person. There is also figures of two trees with branches, one under each of the two small heads, both leaning a little to the right. One of the plates, has on it the figure of a large head by itself, with two ==> pointing directly to it." (Article by Mr. J. Roberts, Quincy Whig, May 3, 1843)

Charlotte Haven described the plates as having "scratches that looked like writing, and strange figures like symbolic characters." (letter of May 2, 1843). She also claimed that Joshua Monroe, the man who had displayed the plates to her, had "showed them to Joseph, the latter said that the figures or writing on them was similar to that in which the Book of Mormon was written." (ibid.)

Parley Pratt said they were "engravings in Egyptian language." (Letter, May 7th, 1843) And, the Antiquarian Society of Philadelphia said they were "Hyeroglyphics" that were unknown. (W. Fugate letter, April 8th, 1878)

However they may be described, W.P. Harris, who was named in the certificate, mentioned years later that "Mr. Fugit, Mr. Whitten and I are all of us belonging to one order that ought to bear witness to the truth." (W.P. Harris letter to Flagg, April 25th, 1855) It is uncertain whether these men belonged to that "order" at the time of the discovery, nor is it at all clear what "order" it was to which he referred. Could it have been Freemasonry? Who knows? However, it is something to investigate. George mentioned something earlier about Masonry, which is why I mention it here.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

Okay. I will indulge this tangential nonsense one more time.

Can you explain to me how the disposition of tithing funds is not a "spiritual" matter?

We don't know the source for the funds that were used. We don't know this because it is none of our business. We have not been given that stewardship, nor are such things accountable to us, rather than God. Were you rightly focused on your own spiritual affairs, rather than busying yourself steadying the ark of Church finances, you may have known this. You may have also known that about which I now have to educate you.

That Church funds may have been derived in spiritual ways, like tithing, the funds may be put to use in non-spiritual ways, like purchasing physical commodities such as carpet, heating systems, land, automobiles, lawns and trees and shrubs for landscaping, airline tickets, chairs, tables, toilets and bathroom tissue, cleaning fluids, food and kitchen implements, etc. etc.. Granted, while some of these physical things may end up being used at times during spiritual events, they are not, themselves, spiritual things. HOw did you not know this?

And should I assume that because this particular case of non-discernment happened 25 years ago that something has changed in the meantime? If so, what?

I don't think you should assume anything about things that are really none of your business, particularly not things which are several decades past being timely or pertinent. How did you not know this?

And, as a tithe-payer, should the non-discernment of Church leaders make me feel better about the closed books, or worse?

It shouldn't cross your mind one way or the other since it really is none of your business. What you should be considering feeling better or worse about is whether you correctly understand the intents of the gospel, the purpose of charitable offerings, your place in the gospel, and whether you are spiritually progressing in faith in the gospel. How did you not know this?

Yet, that would mean turning the lamp of criticism inward rather than externally and at the Church and its leaders, and this isn't something you could feel the least bit better about.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[cinepro]

So, we're all agreed that Church leaders do not use the Gift of Discernment when dealing with tithing funds or when faced with people trying to perpetuate a fraud against the Church?

[LeSellers]

So, we're all agreed that Church leaders do not use the Gift of Discernment when dealing with tithing funds or when faced with people trying to perpetuate a fraud against the Church?

No.

Lehi

[cdowis]

So, we're all agreed that Church leaders do not use the Gift of Discernment when dealing with tithing funds or when faced with people trying to perpetuate a fraud against the Church?

post 156 gives you my response.

[cinepro]

post 156 gives you my response.

As long as you have an N. Eldon Tanner available to help out when the Church goes millions of dollars in the hole, I suppose the Non-Discernment Method of managing Church finances can work.

Deficit Spending and Modern Financing

The combination of bad financial investments, declines in church businesses, and the Great Depression once again pushed the LDS church into deficit spending. First counselor J. Reuben Clark announced to general conferences that the church had spending deficits amounting to $100,000 in 1937 to nearly $900,000 in 1938. In Clark's view, voluntary disclosure of regrettable deficits was a way to encourage greater austerity on the part of the leaders at headquarters and elsewhere. During the 1940s Clark allowed the church to spend only 27 percent of its annual tithing revenues. The rest went into bank savings accounts as a "reserve fund."

Twenty years later the First Presidency's deficit spending caused the end of detailed financial reports regularly given to April general conferences since 1915. In the period of a few months in mid-1956, the church suffered a loss of $1 million of tithing funds invested in municipal government bonds, yet later that year the First Presidency committed two-thirds of church income to continued investment in municipal bonds.128 The next annual financial report gave fewer details about expenditures of church funds, and the church published its last financial report in April 1959.129

By the end of 1959, the church spent $8 million more than its income that year. This was extraordinary in view of the fact that the church had surplus income of $7 million after 1958's expenditures. To conceal the massive increase of building expenditures in the last half of 1959 which created that deficit, the church stopped releasing even abbreviated financial reports. At the close of 1961, Apostle Harold B. Lee expressed "my stubborn resistance to the principle of `deficit spending,' supposedly justified in the hope of increasing the tithing of the Church to cover the deficit."131 To no avail.

At the end of 1962 the church was deficit-spending $32 million annually. New York financiers had to advise against the First Presidency's proposal "to finance such spending by selling Church securities for the next fifty years."132 The new year looked no better. By the end of February there was already a $5 million shortfall, and 1963 threatened to equal or exceed the spending deficit of 1962.

Then in 1963 N. Eldon Tanner entered the First Presidency as the church was struggling to avoid the worst financial crisis of its history. By then, his biographer notes, the building program "had so drained Church reserves that at one point financial officers wondered if they would be able to meet the payroll" for church employees.

Known as the church's modern financial wizard, President Tanner's legacy is an extraordinary success story which deserves separate discussion not possible here. In brief, he responded to Mormonism's financial crisis of 1963 by declaring "a moratorium" on the LDS building program and by halting investments "until a buffer reserve could be built up." Five years of deficit spending had wiped out the church's reserve fund, yet under Tanner's careful stewardship, "step by step the Church was introduced to corporate financing." The task of rebuilding church finances was so daunting that not until 1966 did church administrators conclude that "the finances of the Church are now in a little better shape." Once church finances were comfortably in the black again, there was no incentive to resume the detailed annual reports to general conference.

One example of that success story is the Deseret News purchase of a large bloc of Los Angeles Times stock in 1965. Four years later its valued had increased from less than $1 million to nearly $30 million. Silence concealed massive church deficits for years, and later concealed massive financial successes that resulted from N. Eldon Tanner's impact on church finances.