Deborah Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 I don't think that could be it. I post on StayLDS and have found it to be a wonderfully supportive place with participating and vocal moderators who encourage posters toward staying in the church. It sounds like with good moderation it can be positive rather than negative. I've not looked at that site but then I already spend too much time on this one.
Duncan Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 It sounds like with good moderation it can be positive rather than negative. I've not looked at that site but then I already spend too much time on this one.I appreciate your thoughts!!! Plus I hit the green circle on your behalf because I figured out what that means now!!!
Calm Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 Agreed, however I believe they typically tended (and still do) to remain very silent about their stance. They are known, and often limited to callings etc. based on this, depending on how vocal they might have been.If the Internet had been up and running during the time my uncle was doing this kind of stuff....or if he had ever cared enough about money as opposed to teaching his own version of the 'middle way' so he could have actually published his multitude of writings, I would not have been the least bit surprised to see his name where John Dehlin's is today. I can think of a couple of others in my past who taught the same thing in as public of a forum as they could attract.So yes, those who choose the so-called middle way are typically silent, but there have been plenty in my personal experience that have not been...there just has not been as easy and as inexpensive of a way as the internet to in which to attract a large enough audience to make it a self-sustainable movement.The whole Sunstone thing was often promoted in my hearing as a forum for those who were trying to be part of the Church but had questions, who wanted to deal with the hard issues, etc. ("sunstone mormons" anyone?) and that's been going since 1974. Honestly these claims for John Dehlin remind me of some claims about Al Gore and the Internet.Yes, he created something uniquely his own, but it wasn't as global of an innovation as it is being presented by some here.
Calm Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 It seems that finding a balance here is key.As it is in everything.
Pahoran Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 bluebell,Yes, these are good points.I suppose that we would all agree that one thing that Mormonism instills in us is a strong desire and need to be perfect. The ideal situation would be if we were totally obedient and perfect. Well on second thought, that sounds like the premortal, alternate plan.Not really.The "premortal, alternate plan" was to ensure everyone's salvation by destroying agency. The only way that could work is if choices would no longer entail consequences.And if choices no longer entail consequences, then all choices are equally valid, and there is no meaningful distinction between rectitude and turpitude.That's the "premortal, alternate plan."And it is still remarkably popular today.And I fail to see why Mr. Dehlin gets so heavily lionised. "Trail blazer?" Really? The John C. Frémont of the Mormon blogosphere?Why is public navel-gazing such a popular substitute for actual courage these days?Regards,Pahoran
ELF1024 Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 Christ blazed the trail for us, and showed us the way to Eternal life. For someone who advocated a "lukewarm" approach to following the path to be called a trail blazer is rather weak IMHO.There are no extra points for straddling the line between right and wrong, only for making it safely to the destination.
mfbukowski Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 What in the heck does that mean?At least he's consistent.
mfbukowski Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 So how do you feel about his leaders allowing him to remain, for several years now, in full knowledge, and implied acceptance of this ongoing Mormon stories work?I don't have a clue, but I can tell you that that powerpoint he delivered in NYC appears definitely to be seeking an organization with an identity other than the CoJClds.Sounds like apostasy to me- but I really don't know anything about him. If that is a new position- imo that is an important change- but what do I know?
Duncan Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 Not really.The "premortal, alternate plan" was to ensure everyone's salvation by destroying agency. The only way that could work is if choices would no longer entail consequences.And if choices no longer entail consequences, then all choices are equally valid, and there is no meaningful distinction between rectitude and turpitude.That's the "premortal, alternate plan."And it is still remarkably popular today.And I fail to see why Mr. Dehlin gets so heavily lionised. "Trail blazer?" Really? The John C. Frémont of the Mormon blogosphere?Why is public navel-gazing such a popular substitute for actual courage these days?Regards,PahoranBig Meanie. There wasn't two plans presented, what there was one plan with two (possibly more) volunteers to carry out that plan. Lucifer wanted to destroy our agency and Christ wanted to preserve it and Lucifer as you know lost out. I think people like John Dehlin highlight the fact that not all Mormons are the same and these are the reasons people quit the Church and he wants to help out, I don't know how effective he is, if he has ulterior motives, or about his own testimony as I am not in a position of judgement on him or anyone else.
Avatar4321 Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 Clearly if after two pages I still have no clue who this person is, he can't be that fundamental or that big of a trail blazer.With that said, I hope he remains on the straight and narrow. If he goes elsewhere, then I am sorry to hear that.
mfbukowski Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 Must the members all be orthodox or out the door? Define orthodox- I mean Ostler says we don't even have doctrine. All you have to do is answer some questions truthfully and get a recommend- what do you want?
mercyngrace Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 I don't have a clue, but I can tell you that that powerpoint he delivered in NYC appears definitely to be seeking an organization with an identity other than the CoJClds.Sounds like apostasy to me- but I really don't know anything about him. If that is a new position- imo that is an important change- but what do I know?I think one of his main points, for some time now, has been that active, believing, members need to have a better understanding of why people leave the church and the complexities that accompany the loss of faith. I did listen to the presentation you're referring to and had some mixed feelings about it. Got interrupted by the kiddos at the end so I want to listen to that part again because I missed the discussion of ways "uncorrelated Mormons" can gather to help socialize and whatnot and I think that is what seems like the creation of an organized distinct identity.Has anyone else listened to the presentation? Is he proposing a kind of loose therapeutic fellowshipping or something more defined?
Mark Beesley Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 So, this middle way that seems to be a topic of interest, does it have an iron rod next to it? Are there multiple gates to get onto this path, or do you find it later? Do you have to let go of the iron rod in order to find this middle way path? Has anyone looked to see was is at the end of that path? Has a prophet of God ratified the existence of such a path as being sufficient to lead to exaltation?I watched the strangest YouTube video recently that talked about all sorts of silly stuff that make people struggle in the Church. I was very tempted to create my own video to explain what that same silly stuff doesn't have to make you struggle, but I've not been asked by the Lord to conduct that kind of a ministry. Anyway, who gave this Dehlin character the commission that he has assumed for himself.
mfbukowski Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 I have listened to many of John's podcasts and read almost the entirety of his StayLDS website.During my own faith crisis I had my wife watch his "Why People Leave the LDS Church" youtube video to better understand the issues I was dealing with.I believe John is (at least was) a friend to the church and struggling members.The church will never, nor should it, recognize a "middle way" within the larger umbrella of the restored church.However, it should continue to strive for compassion and reach out to unbelievers in the most Christlike manner possible.It should also aim to have as big as tent/net as possible, where nobody feels ostracized, marginalized or unwelcome.I am very much a heterodox/middle path mormon and I have never ran into any problems.However I know if I proclaim in gospel doctrine how I have come to the conclusion The Book of Mormon is inspired but ahistorical, it would be quite upsetting to my fellow Mormons.It would damage their worship experience, and should not be tolerated.The question is how much public apostasy and undermining of faith should the church allow before it asks someone to stop.As John's fate is essentially the whim of his Stake President, I don't think this is some monumental moment upon which the fate of LDS "middle pathers" hinges.I agree with everything but the last line.Whatever the SP's decision, it will not be a "whim". These decisions are monumentally difficult and would try the patience of a Solomon.
mfbukowski Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 ok . (however this is not about him, its about the trail he blazed and how that might effect us).What trail?He has "followers"? That makes it worse!
rockslider Posted May 5, 2011 Author Posted May 5, 2011 So, this middle way that seems to be a topic of interest, does it have an iron rod next to it? Are there multiple gates to get onto this path, or do you find it later? Do you have to let go of the iron rod in order to find this middle way path? Has anyone looked to see was is at the end of that path? Has a prophet of God ratified the existence of such a path as being sufficient to lead to exaltation?I watched the strangest YouTube video recently that talked about all sorts of silly stuff that make people struggle in the Church. I was very tempted to create my own video to explain what that same silly stuff doesn't have to make you struggle, but I've not been asked by the Lord to conduct that kind of a ministry. Anyway, who gave this Dehlin character the commission that he has assumed for himself.Once again, I’m speculating, based on implied observations.Asking if a prophet of God ratified FAIR or MI might be the same type of question as asking did one ratify Mormon Stories.Does the Church object to the workings of FAIR or MI, and if they did, how would we know? When a person or entity threatens the church, action is taken. When it is working in beneficial ways, it may even be quietly supported.When John first started Mormon Stories, I assume leaders and he addressed this (the site was shut down, voluntarily by John). After this, John remained active, and in my understanding held the position of a High Councilor in the stake. During this time, Mormon Stories was started back up and has run continually since.Now maybe things have turned sour and the time for action has come. But it seems implied that at least for a period of time, Mormon stories operated under a green light from John’s local leaders. I’m also suggesting that this sheds a good light on the church, and hold hopes that future trials/works/programs/forums, or whatever might continue to evolve to address the issue of retention of those that struggle.
Duncan Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 I think one of his main points, for some time now, has been that active, believing, members need to have a better understanding of why people leave the church and the complexities that accompany the loss of faith. I did listen to the presentation you're referring to and had some mixed feelings about it. Got interrupted by the kiddos at the end so I want to listen to that part again because I missed the discussion of ways "uncorrelated Mormons" can gather to help socialize and whatnot and I think that is what seems like the creation of an organized distinct identity.Has anyone else listened to the presentation? Is he proposing a kind of loose therapeutic fellowshipping or something more defined?I may have sometime ago but I honestly don't recall, it had that much of an effect on me! I have watched his other interviews and some of them were great, although I odn't know how valid or how much weight I should put in them.
SilverKnight Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 So, this middle way that seems to be a topic of interest, does it have an iron rod next to it? Are there multiple gates to get onto this path, or do you find it later? Do you have to let go of the iron rod in order to find this middle way path? Has anyone looked to see was is at the end of that path? Has a prophet of God ratified the existence of such a path as being sufficient to lead to exaltation?In between the stalwart souls treading the narrow iron-rod path and the great and spacious building filled with mocking evildoers, is an infinitely wide plain called real life that most people find themselves wandering. Some end up on the straight and narrow path. Some check into the big building. But most wander about somewhere in between.I watched the strangest YouTube video recently that talked about all sorts of silly stuff that make people struggle in the Church. I think minimizing the issues that shake people's testimonies is a sure way to ensure their eventual apostasy.I was very tempted to create my own video to explain what that same silly stuff doesn't have to make you struggle, but I've not been asked by the Lord to conduct that kind of a ministry. Neither have Hugh Nibley, Richard Bushman or Dan Peterson, but their efforts have prove a great help to struggling mormons. Anyway, who gave this Dehlin character the commission that he has assumed for himself.Maybe the Maxwell Institute, FAIR and MADB should close up shop too, after all nobody "commissioned" any of them to produce apologetics.
rockslider Posted May 5, 2011 Author Posted May 5, 2011 What trail?He has "followers"? That makes it worse!I suppose it was a trail that his works may have helped me blaze through my own valley of demons.http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/54223-trail-blazer-brings-hard-choices-to-church/page__view__findpost__p__1209003855edit: link fixed
SilverKnight Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 Whatever the SP's decision, it will not be a "whim". These decisions are monumentally difficult and would try the patience of a Solomon.You're right, and should have phrased it differently.I should have said 'decision' - as such decisions do involve much reflection, patience and difficulty.
Calm Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 After this, John remained active, and in my understanding held the position of a High Councilor in the stake. CFR please.
jskains Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 Sorry, did want to pipe in one one fact. I think Internet Mormonism / Internet Anti-Mormonism as a whole thinks itself more important than reality supports.JMHO.JMS
consiglieri Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 Never heard of him, couldn't care less. It has no effect on my salvation.How can you be so sure?
consiglieri Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 Salvation is personal. Mormonism being the counter example, where salvation is also famously communal.Paul cannot be saved without us, and we cannot be saved without Paul.In Mormonism more than any other Christian church with which I am familiar, "No man is an island."All the Best!--Consiglieri
rockslider Posted May 6, 2011 Author Posted May 6, 2011 CFR please.I will look, I really believe this is true. I believe the answer is on Mormon stories where he first anounced that he was starting it back up again, but of course there are hours and hours of material there ... but I will try
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