Trail Blazer Brings Hard Choices To Church

[mfbukowski]

I wonder if caring about others effects our salvation? I wonder if learning from others effects our salvation? I wonder if sharing and teaching others effect our salvation?

Have I done any good in the world today?

Have I helped anyone in need?

Have I cheered up the sad and made someone feel glad?

If not, I have failed indeed.

Has anyone’s burden been lighter today

Because I was willing to share?

Have the sick and the weary been helped on their way?

When they needed my help was I there?

Then wake up and do something more

Than dream of your mansion above.

Doing good is a pleasure, a joy beyond measure,

A blessing of duty and love.

Really good point.

Obviously you can't believe in any of these things and be a Mormon.

No, Dehlin's beliefs do not affect my salvation.

Now I can see why they shut down the other thread.

5, 4, 3.....

[ELF1024]

I wonder if caring about others effects our salvation? I wonder if learning from others effects our salvation? I wonder if sharing and teaching others effect our salvation?

Have I done any good in the world today?

Have I helped anyone in need?

Have I cheered up the sad and made someone feel glad?

If not, I have failed indeed.

Has anyone’s burden been lighter today

Because I was willing to share?

Have the sick and the weary been helped on their way?

When they needed my help was I there?

Then wake up and do something more

Than dream of your mansion above.

Doing good is a pleasure, a joy beyond measure,

A blessing of duty and love.

Rather self-serving corruption of a nice song.

Salvation is personal. I see no reason why I should get all hot and bothered over one person's decision to make trouble for himself. I don't see a need to go borrowing trouble. I have enough of my own.

Frankly, this so called "Trail blazer"'s faith and actions are between him and his God, and are none of my concern.

[rockslider]

Definitely apostate

Sure, most definitely an apostate from orthodox standards. But, in my understanding, there is more to this story. John started Mormon Stories when he first stated in his own crisis of faith. For a time he totally shut down Mormon stories for a significant time as he worked with his SP and local leaders. After working things out with them, I believe he ended up as a High Counseler in his state, and started Mormon stories back up, with the full knowledge and I assume support of his local leaders.

Now this is my speculation/assumptions and I may be totally wrong. I assume (and hope) that the Church was willing to explore ways in which it could help its struggling members, and hence why they allowed it to continue over the years, with John in a trusted position.

I also assume this would have continued as long as John stayed active. Any way it went down, I was encouraged in my thoughts, that the church was willing to experiment with ways to help.

[bluebell]

Ok I looked him up.

If it gets locked it gets locked.

It seems fine to the mods that Rob Bowman gets to take over any thread spouting his personal beliefs- why can't we discuss Dehlin's beliefs and whether or not they constitute "apostasy"

To me, it is not really a personal issue, it is a question of doctrine and what constitutes "apostasy"

http://mormonstories.org/?p=1583

Clearly he wants to start his own organization with beliefs which differ from the church in certain ways (or so he imagines)

Of course they do not actually- these are beliefs anyone IN the church can believe just fine.

But starting another organization?

Definitely apostate

He doesn't understand that all his points do in fact co-exist perfectly with the "ortho-praxis" of Mormonism. There is no conflict.

It sounds like unitarianism a bit, mixed with a reformed mormonism flavor as well. Kind of a 'take what we like, ignore what we don't, make room for all beliefs' approach to a religion. Would that be a proper understanding? (for those who know more about his beliefs)

[jskains]

Rather self-serving corruption of a nice song.

Salvation is personal. I see no reason why I should get all hot and bothered over one person's decision to make trouble for himself. I don't see a need to go borrowing trouble. I have enough of my own.

Any individual who wants to preach things counter to an organization can not complain when the organization asks them to go away.

The reason IMHO the thread got locked is it is not only personally targeted. but very assumptive (is that a word?). He might want to go attention whoring by annoucing what should be a personal event to the world, but I plan not to feed his ego by spending any more time on a related thread.

JMS

[Whiskeypete]

John's podcast is fascinating.

I would have to disagree with jskains-- plenty of people know who he is. His videos on youtube have accumulated thousands of views. His "Why People Leave the LDS Church" presentation alone has logged over 75,000 views. Since Tuesday, there have been 417 responses to his announcement about his meeting with a church leader. I have no idea how heavy his site traffic is, but I would assume it is significant. John is pretty well known.

There is an difference between 75,000 views and 75,000 unique views. And 417 responses doesn't mean 417 users, as they tend to become conversations.

Even if we were generous and assum that each one of the 75,000 views represented an active member of the church who watched it themselves and then showed it to 2 other people, it still would be less than 1% of the members of the church who viewed it. And viewing it does not mean that they necessarily are impacted one way or another.

In my case, I look at it as, "Thats sad that someone is leaving the church, but even sadder is they expect it to impact my testimony."

[rockslider]

It sounds like unitarianism a bit, mixed with a reformed mormonism flavor as well. Kind of a 'take what we like, ignore what we don't, make room for all beliefs' approach to a religion. Would that be a proper understanding? (for those who know more about his beliefs)

Yes, I suppose in some ways, John could be considered the father of Cafeteria Mormonism (i.e. don’t just leave it because you have some issues with some things).

[mfbukowski]

Sure, most definitely an apostate from orthodox standards. But, in my understanding, there is more to this story. John started Mormon Stories when he first stated in his own crisis of faith. For a time he totally shut down Mormon stories for a significant time as he worked with his SP and local leaders. After working things out with them, I believe he ended up as a High Counseler in his state, and started Mormon stories back up, with the full knowledge and I assume support of his local leaders.

Now this is my speculation/assumptions and I may be totally wrong. I assume (and hope) that the Church was willing to explore ways in which it could help its struggling members, and hence why they allowed it to continue over the years, with John in a trusted position.

I also assume this would have continued as long as John stayed active. Any way it went down, I was encouraged in my thoughts, that the church was willing to experiment with ways to help.

NOW you really ARE speculating by your own admission on personal issues.

I was trying to keep it general for you- but clearly this guy has made his own bed-

You don't go around trying to start alternative organizations "within" ANY organization and remain "within".

He's gone dude! And imo should be!

[rockslider]

NOW you really ARE speculating by your own admission on personal issues.

I was trying to keep it general for you- but clearly this guy has made his own bed-

You don't go around trying to start alternative organizations "within" ANY organization and remain "within".

He's gone dude! And imo should be!

So how do you feel about his leaders allowing him to remain, for several years now, in full knowledge, and implied acceptance of this ongoing Mormon stories work?

[ELF1024]

So how do you feel about his leaders allowing him to remain, for several years now, in full knowledge, and implied acceptance of this ongoing Mormon stories work?

Why do you think that is any of our business?

[TNBu]

There is an difference between 75,000 views and 75,000 unique views. And 417 responses doesn't mean 417 users, as they tend to become conversations.

Even if we were generous and assum that each one of the 75,000 views represented an active member of the church who watched it themselves and then showed it to 2 other people, it still would be less than 1% of the members of the church who viewed it. And viewing it does not mean that they necessarily are impacted one way or another.

In my case, I look at it as, "Thats sad that someone is leaving the church, but even sadder is they expect it to impact my testimony."

Well duh. :0)

I wasn't assuming unique views, or 417 unique posters, or the composition of his audience, or the impact of his efforts, or the ratio of people who know who John is versus church membership- just stating the fact that he is not unknown. If everyone who viewed it watched it five times (highly unlikely, as it's an hour long) that would be 25,000 people who know who John Dehlin is. I doubt anyone would sit through it twice (just because it's long and fairly straightforward). Even taking into account multiple views, John has a formidable internet presence.

I mean, sure, he's not google, but his audience is limited in the first place just because of the topic.

[Deborah]

Back in the days of the Kirtland Bank many people ended up leaving the church. By revelation missionaries were sent to Britain and many people joined the church to build it up again. This was a time of sifting. Why? Because very hard times were coming. The Lord needed a people who had been tried and stood firm.

I think a similar thing is happening today. I never heard of any of these supposedly well-known dissidents until this board. I have never heard of them outside this board. They are certainly not the topic of discussion in any of the many places I've lived. I couldn't care less what they have to say and their salvation or standing with the church and with God is between them, their Bishop and God.

[Ceeboo]

One last contribution and then I will wander away from this thread.

If I may:

If there were ever a need for a hero to appear in a thread, now would be a very good time (My opinion).

Peace,

Ceeboo

[mfbukowski]

This whole "cultural mormon" thing is a mystery to me

Either you believe it or you don't!

"I am a 'cultural Republican' but I believe in Socialist Revolution. I just can't stand that my family won't like me for leaving the Republican party, so just let's reform the Republicans, and start some support groups for like-minded Republicans, ok? "

What's that all about??

[Deborah]

If there were ever a need for a hero to appear in a thread, now would be a very good time (My opinion).

What in the heck does that mean?

[Whiskeypete]

So his audience is both Limited and Formidable.

I'm sure whatever happens to him -which will NOT be reported by the Church as they hold such things to be private, so if we find out it is because he chose to reveal this to his limited formidable audience - will affect a number of people. Him, his family, his ward, his limited, formidable audience. But definately will have no impact on the stakes and wards of the church as the original post stated.

[rockslider]

Why do you think that is any of our business?

M&G put the correct words to it … “a middle way”.

I’m suggesting that the church realizes that there is a real issue here and they would like to address it (this is good). I’m suggesting that they allowed this (and did not excommunicate John long ago) for a positive experience if not a purpose.

Of course many view this as a threat (i.e. John might also be considered the father of the Mormon Fifth columnist) and yet others might believe that the gospel net gathers many sizes and flavors of good fish.

It is for these reasons that I think we should consider these things. I’m not arguing for or against if John should be excommunicated. I’m suggesting that even the Church hates to see this experiment come to an end, and even if John must go, should or should not a middle way be considered? Must the members all be orthodox or out the door? These are the important issues, which no matter which way John’s situation turns out, should be important to all of us as Mormons.

[MorningStar]

This thread just seems like a excuse to let everyone know that a prominent (?) Mormon left the church. His name is familiar, but I don't listen to podcasts either. I do seem to recall him looking for participants here and I didn't know if he was Mormon or a critic at the time.

[SeattleGrunge]

This thread just seems like a excuse to let everyone know that a prominent (?) Mormon left the church. His name is familiar, but I don't listen to podcasts either. I do seem to recall him looking for participants here and I didn't know if he was Mormon or a critic at the time.

He's about as well known as you can be w/o being a GA or a world celebrity.

to everyone else:

The real interesting thing about this issue and this thread specifically is how people can push others out of the church so easily and that is a very sad thing in my opinion. Why jump on this so easily and say things like "he should be gone for sure" or "good riddance." That is so sad. If he is struggling, which he definitely is as that is his motivation for doing Mormon Stories, than why not reach out to him and those that are having similar struggles. Those who are in the church and don't react more christlike to those who are wavering out of it will be held accountable to a certain extent when they push rather than reach out and pull back.

[Deborah]

should or should not a middle way be considered? Must the members all be orthodox or out the door?

Seriously?

Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Orthodoxy isn't the issue. As you can see from this forum there are a lot of different opinions even from faithful members. It's about humility and obedience, even when you don't understand the reasons (ie Adam making an offering when he knew not why). I do not think humility is part of the equation when one starts a website supposedly to hear sob stories from others. That invites feeding on others' negative experiences and leads to contention and is not conducive to keeping the Spirit.

[Deborah]

The real interesting thing about this issue and this thread specifically is how people can push others out of the church so easily and that is a very sad thing in my opinion.

And how do you know that those close to such people are "pushing" them out? It has been my experience that when people are struggling friends and neighbors for the most part become very supportive. Being on an open forum is not the way to come back to church, especially when one is spouting things against the faith of others.

[rockslider]

Seriously?

Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Deborah, it's been many years since I've studied the scriptures, but I'm pretty sure that what you quoted there refers to only one thing, and it's not a church, it's not a doctrine, it's via Christ:

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

[bluebell]

M&G put the correct words to it … “a middle way”.

I’m suggesting that the church realizes that there is a real issue here and they would like to address it (this is good). I’m suggesting that they allowed this (and did not excommunicate John long ago) for a positive experience if not a purpose.

Of course many view this as a threat (i.e. John might also be considered the father of the Mormon Fifth columnist) and yet others might believe that the gospel net gathers many sizes and flavors of good fish.

It is for these reasons that I think we should consider these things. I’m not arguing for or against if John should be excommunicated. I’m suggesting that even the Church hates to see this experiment come to an end, and even if John must go, should or should not a middle way be considered? Must the members all be orthodox or out the door? These are the important issues, which no matter which way John’s situation turns out, should be important to all of us as Mormons.

My concerns with the idea of a 'middle way'-which i voiced earlier in a different thread-is that the scriptures seem to speak against it.

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

That seems to imply that making the way broad enough that all different beliefs can feel comfortable there does no one any good-that it does not help anyone's salvation.

Also-

"15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

Again, this seems to imply that a lukewarm invovlement with the gospel is worse than actually being against it.

I don't mean to suggest that my interpretations of these verses proves that a 'middle way' is wrong. Knowing these verses exist though, where the Lord seems clear on their being one right path, not many, and where He speaks about the need to be 'hot' in our invovlement with the gospel, does, as i said, give me pause in embracing the idea of a 'middle way'.

[3DOP]

M&G put the correct words to it … “a middle way”.

I’m suggesting that the church realizes that there is a real issue here and they would like to address it (this is good). I’m suggesting that they allowed this (and did not excommunicate John long ago) for a positive experience if not a purpose.

Of course many view this as a threat (i.e. John might also be considered the father of the Mormon Fifth columnist) and yet others might believe that the gospel net gathers many sizes and flavors of good fish.

It is for these reasons that I think we should consider these things. I’m not arguing for or against if John should be excommunicated. I’m suggesting that even the Church hates to see this experiment come to an end, and even if John must go, should or should not a middle way be considered? Must the members all be orthodox or out the door? These are the important issues, which no matter which way John’s situation turns out, should be important to all of us as Mormons.

I find it important to me as a Catholic too. If "middle ways" that permit doctrinal deviation become increasingly acceptable for Latter-day Saints, it seems necessary to allow a corresponding increasing latitude in evaluating apostasy on the part of "Former-day Saints".

[SilverKnight]

M&G put the correct words to it … “a middle way”.

I’m suggesting that the church realizes that there is a real issue here and they would like to address it (this is good). I’m suggesting that they allowed this (and did not excommunicate John long ago) for a positive experience if not a purpose.

Of course many view this as a threat (i.e. John might also be considered the father of the Mormon Fifth columnist) and yet others might believe that the gospel net gathers many sizes and flavors of good fish.

I have listened to many of John's podcasts and read almost the entirety of his StayLDS website.

During my own faith crisis I had my wife watch his "Why People Leave the LDS Church" youtube video to better understand the issues I was dealing with.

I believe John is (at least was) a friend to the church and struggling members.

It is for these reasons that I think we should consider these things. I’m not arguing for or against if John should be excommunicated. I’m suggesting that even the Church hates to see this experiment come to an end, and even if John must go, should or should not a middle way be considered?

The church will never, nor should it, recognize a "middle way" within the larger umbrella of the restored church.

However, it should continue to strive for compassion and reach out to unbelievers in the most Christlike manner possible.

It should also aim to have as big as tent/net as possible, where nobody feels ostracized, marginalized or unwelcome.

Must the members all be orthodox or out the door?

I am very much a heterodox/middle path mormon and I have never ran into any problems.

However I know if I proclaim in gospel doctrine how I have come to the conclusion The Book of Mormon is inspired but ahistorical, it would be quite upsetting to my fellow Mormons.

It would damage their worship experience, and should not be tolerated.

The question is how much public apostasy and undermining of faith should the church allow before it asks someone to stop.

These are the important issues, which no matter which way John’s situation turns out, should be important to all of us as Mormons.

As John's fate is essentially the whim of his Stake President, I don't think this is some monumental moment upon which the fate of LDS "middle pathers" hinges.