Trail Blazer Brings Hard Choices To Church

[Duncan]

When people talk about a "middle way" what does it mean? what is teh behaviour and beliefs of a middle way Mormon?

[ERayR]

I don't have a clue what you guys are talking about, since I live outside the Mormon ghettos.

All I know is someone said the name "John" who I presume is John Dehlin, who I have heard about peripherally on this board and at the trailer park.

What's the big deal and why all the secrecy?

What is this, the CIA?

There must be a mormon conspiracy in there somewhere.

[rockslider]

bluebell,

Yes, these are good points.

I suppose that we would all agree that one thing that Mormonism instills in us is a strong desire and need to be perfect. The ideal situation would be if we were totally obedient and perfect. Well on second thought, that sounds like the premortal, alternate plan.

We choose the hard way. As a final touch to our creation, it was decreed. We shall allow Lucifer our common enemy to test and to try them, that by their own experience they may learn to choose the good from the evil.

Along our journeys we are all in different places at different times. I’m afraid that by our high expectations of perfection, of ourselves, our church, and our fellow travelers, maybe we drive some to premature decisions. Maybe more tolerance to imperfection, as we all strive for that perfection would help the church and its members at this time.

[MorningStar]

He's about as well known as you can be w/o being a GA or a world celebrity.

I don't think anyone in my ward would know who he is.

[Jeff K.]

Anyone well known is a celebrity. And no, he isn't well known.

[SilverKnight]

When people talk about a "middle way" what does it mean? what is teh behaviour and beliefs of a middle way Mormon?

It can mean many things I think.

Primarily it means a person who rejects, or is agnostic toward, certain LDS doctrines, practices and truth claims, but retains belief in the rest.

A Cafeteria Mormon.

[rockslider]

SilverKnight;

I find no fault in your comments.

Thank you for your remarks.

[ERayR]

I wonder if caring about others effects our salvation? I wonder if learning from others effects our salvation? I wonder if sharing and teaching others effect our salvation?

Have I done any good in the world today?

Have I helped anyone in need?

Have I cheered up the sad and made someone feel glad?

If not, I have failed indeed.

Has anyone’s burden been lighter today

Because I was willing to share?

Have the sick and the weary been helped on their way?

When they needed my help was I there?

Then wake up and do something more

Than dream of your mansion above.

Doing good is a pleasure, a joy beyond measure,

A blessing of duty and love.

OK????

[ERayR]

No, they want to waste as much of your time as possible speaking slowly while you wait for them to get to the point which is often not worth it to start with

Not to mention the ego boost.

[rockslider]

OK????

I'm not sure what you are asking here? I simply responded to elf1024's comment of wondering what this had to do with his/her salvation

If there is a satanic win, of the likes of the lie that Satan has horns, and cloven feet (that we might not really recognize him), it would be that some limited (correlated if you would) list of specific things is going to ensure my personal salvation.

[ELF1024]

M&G put the correct words to it … “a middle way”.

I’m suggesting that the church realizes that there is a real issue here and they would like to address it (this is good). I’m suggesting that they allowed this (and did not excommunicate John long ago) for a positive experience if not a purpose.

Of course many view this as a threat (i.e. John might also be considered the father of the Mormon Fifth columnist) and yet others might believe that the gospel net gathers many sizes and flavors of good fish.

It is for these reasons that I think we should consider these things. I’m not arguing for or against if John should be excommunicated. I’m suggesting that even the Church hates to see this experiment come to an end, and even if John must go, should or should not a middle way be considered? Must the members all be orthodox or out the door? These are the important issues, which no matter which way John’s situation turns out, should be important to all of us as Mormons.

Manure! His status in the Church is between him, his God, and his Priesthood Leaders. It has nothing to do with anyone else.

[rockslider]

Manure! His status in the Church is between him, his God, and his Priesthood Leaders. It has nothing to do with anyone else.

ok . (however this is not about him, its about the trail he blazed and how that might effect us).

[Deborah]

I’m afraid that by our high expectations of perfection, of ourselves, our church, and our fellow travelers, maybe we drive some to premature decisions. Maybe more tolerance to imperfection, as we all strive for that perfection would help the church and its members at this time.

I'm not sure why you think this isn't what is taught. Most expectations of perfection are self imposed, and people tend to be harder on themselves than others.

There is also the old philosophy that a person will rise to what is expected of him. Maybe that's why so many kids are failing in basic things like reading and math; no one expects anything of them anymore.

[Deborah]

ok . (however this is not about him, its about the trail he blazed and how that might effect us).

What trail did he blaze? I don't think he should be made a hero because he invited people to complain.

[rockslider]

I'm not sure why you think this isn't what is taught. Most expectations of perfection are self imposed, and people tend to be harder on themselves than others.

There is also the old philosophy that a person will rise to what is expected of him. Maybe that's why so many kids are failing in basic things like reading and math; no one expects anything of them anymore.

I don't disagree with this at all.

[SilverKnight]

What trail did he blaze? I don't think he should be made a hero because he invited people to complain.

He didn't invite people to complain at all.

Rather, he created a website called StayLDS, that encouraged shaken LDS members to find ways to remain in the church after a major faith trial.

EDIT: However I don't know what his current position is. He may have since gravitated toward more 'separatist' apostasy and might think the best route for doubting mormons is to distance themselves from the church.

[rockslider]

What trail did he blaze? I don't think he should be made a hero because he invited people to complain.

Well I don’t know who might be considered the actual “fathers” of NOMism, or Cafeteria Mormonism, or social Mormonism, but John was certainly the first to do all that he could to put out the message that it was OK be these things.

A secondary trail might be to not fear facing the hard questions. The endless hours of live interviews with some very key players over the years is a wealth of much experience from which much can be gleaned. This is the aspect that was most valuable to me personally.

Hero or villian? One interesting thing about John, he is considered both by critics as well as TBM's. He has taken the heat from all sides. I suppose that rather he blazed these trails as a hero or a villian, or simply as a man trying the best he knew how, is in the eye of the beholder.

[Calm]

Yes, I suppose in some ways, John could be considered the father of Cafeteria Mormonism.

That's just silly. There were plenty of "cafeteria mormons" around when I was growing up 50 years ago.

[Deborah]

Rather, he created a website called StayLDS, that encouraged shaken LDS members to find ways to remain in the church after a major faith trial.

That may have been the original intent but I don't think you can put something like that up without it degenerating into a support system for those who are disaffected and thereby giving no reason to hang in there when so many people feel like you do.

I still wouldn't consider it being trail-blazing. It may have been a way for him to hold on to the church and he may very well have been sincere but I think it was misguided. Perhaps the Bishop had asked him to take it down because it was doing more harm than good but he refused. I don't know and I think it is as I said before between his bishop, himself and God.

[SilverKnight]

Well I don’t know who might be considered the actual “fathers” of NOMism, or Cafeteria Mormonism, or social Mormonism, but John was certainly the first to do all that he could to put out the message that it was OK be these things.

A secondary trail might be to not fear facing the hard questions.

I think the best example of this might be Richard Bushman.

I can think of no other LDS scholar/personality that has done a better job of maintaining faith in the restoration while being willing to plunge headlong into the hardest issues.

Hero or villian? One interesting thing about John, he is considered both by critics as well as TBM's. He has taken the heat from all sides. I suppose that rather he blazed these trails as a hero or a villian, or simply as a man trying the best he knew how, is in the eye of the beholder.

There was a time when John held a precarious and lonely position of being a liberal believer who wanted to help struggling mormons, who was also honest enough about the hard issues to earn the respect of critics.

If he has fully apostatized then it's truly a loss.

But, life goes on.

[rockslider]

That's just silly. There were plenty of "cafeteria mormons" around when I was growing up 50 years ago.

Agreed, however I believe they typically tended (and still do) to remain very silent about their stance. They are known, and often limited to callings etc. based on this, depending on how vocal they might have been.

How about "He is the father of coming out of the closet, cafeteria Mormons"

I’m still pretty sure he owns the title of Father of Fifth Columnist Mormons J

Silverknight made a key observation:

The church will never, nor should it, recognize a "middle way" within the larger umbrella of the restored church.

However, it should continue to strive for compassion and reach out to unbelievers in the most Christlike manner possible.

It should also aim to have as big as tent/net as possible, where nobody feels ostracized, marginalized or unwelcome.

It seems that finding a balance here is key.

[frankenstein]

Never heard of him, couldn't care less. It has no effect on my salvation.

excellent post. Thank You.

as for why the other topic was locked, mostly because it is tabloidish or national enquirer material.

[Stargazer]

Never heard of him, couldn't care less. It has no effect on my salvation.

I've heard of him, found him boring, couldn't care less. Ditto.

[mercyngrace]

That may have been the original intent but I don't think you can put something like that up without it degenerating into a support system for those who are disaffected and thereby giving no reason to hang in there when so many people feel like you do.

I still wouldn't consider it being trail-blazing. It may have been a way for him to hold on to the church and he may very well have been sincere but I think it was misguided. Perhaps the Bishop had asked him to take it down because it was doing more harm than good but he refused. I don't know and I think it is as I said before between his bishop, himself and God.

I don't think that could be it. I post on StayLDS and have found it to be a wonderfully supportive place with participating and vocal moderators who encourage posters toward staying in the church. I've even read posts by folks whose anger against the church has diminished such that they've left sites like NOM in favor of StayLDS in order to find a way to ease back into the church.

When this issue about John came up at that site, moderator Ray posted the following:

Notice John said he is not active anymore (and, based on everything else, I read that in the traditional "attends every week" sense) and that he still generally enjoys sacrament meeting.

Iow, he's still struggling with lots of things (like he has for years), but his activity level has dropped.

That doesn't surprise me at all, and it doesn't even bother me very much. If he ever leaves formally and starts to fight the Church, that would be different. As it is, he's still trying to figure it all out. I support that fully, even though it's not the path I've chosen for myself.

(Ray is an active, believing member - I believe he's currently serving on the High Council.)

The environment there is one of gentle support and even when complaints about the church are voiced, they are done so in a respectful way. Honestly, the moderators there are some of the best examples of charity, I've seen on the internet.

[rockslider]

I think the best example of this might be Richard Bushman.

I can think of no other LDS scholar/personality that has done a better job of maintaining faith in the restoration while being willing to plunge headlong into the hardest issues.

It also appears that he is having a big impact on a new generation of Mormon Scalars. It will be very interesting to see the works of this new generation.