Net or Gross Tithing?

[katherine the great]

What does reduction of your tithing through a net process (when you aren't forced to economically) say to the God you worship?

More importantly, what does GOD say it means? In my brother's case, it apparently says that he's worthy to be called as a Bishop.

[Jeff K.]

Perhaps, I am not judging your brother one way or another. If he says he is a full tithe payer then that is that. Such things are between the person and the Lord. I feel that seeking a calculation that reduces tithing when you needn't do so, is to a certain extent skimping. As I have said there are exceptions. I know of a member in a heavily taxed nation, his tithing is not deductible and he paid upwards of 70 and even 80%. i would not think to impoversh a family that way and neither would the Lord. There are exceptions as I have mentioned earlier. Otherwise though, a net tithing seems like a net fast, or even net righteousness (good versus bad deeds).

[awesome0]

Perhaps, I am not judging your brother one way or another. If he says he is a full tithe payer then that is that. Such things are between the person and the Lord. I feel that seeking a calculation that reduces tithing when you needn't do so, is to a certain extent skimping. As I have said there are exceptions. I know of a member in a heavily taxed nation, his tithing is not deductible and he paid upwards of 70 and even 80%. i would not think to impoversh a family that way and neither would the Lord. There are exceptions as I have mentioned earlier. Otherwise though, a net tithing seems like a net fast, or even net righteousness (good versus bad deeds).

However, you have and continue to imply if its not 10% of gross earnings, than someone is selfish.

In my view we are a heavily taxes nation.

In addition I think everyones focus on money (gross vs. net) misses many increases we experience. My yearly increase is not only do to my work at the office, its also do to my wifes work in the home in home production. Money is simply a medium we use to trade services more conveniently and efficiently over time. With that in mind, I don't see how gross income reflects increase in a reasonable way as there are many others ways we experience increase (and decrease).

[Jeff K.]

However, you have and continue to imply if its not 10% of gross earnings, than someone is selfish.

In my view we are a heavily taxes nation.

In addition I think everyones focus on money (gross vs. net) misses many increases we experience. My yearly increase is not only do to my work at the office, its also do to my wifes work in the home in home production. Money is simply a medium we use to trade services more conveniently and efficiently over time. With that in mind, I don't see how gross income reflects increase in a reasonable way as there are many others ways we experience increase (and decrease).

Money is just a medium that is true, it is used to make effective transfers.

I imply that 10% gross is when one gives generously. Aside from strong outside influences of government or something similar, I believe a gross payment reflects a desire or heart of thankfulness. I have not yet heard that a net is more generous. I suppose the ultimate litmus test is what we would say to Christ. "I thought net was good enough" just doesn't sound strong in my view.

As to thinking that this nation is so heavily taxed that you feel a 10% net is necessary. I suppose if you truly believe that then you have your answer. But I find it interesting to note that most in this nation, even among the poor would disagree with you and pay a 10% gross. Even when I was poor, that is what I paid. Now that things are going well for me I don't see how I could justify a net payment of my income. Increase is income according to the President Hinckley by the way.

Wife and kids also calculate what they do for income.

[awesome0]

Money is just a medium that is true, it is used to make effective transfers.

I imply that 10% gross is when one gives generously. Aside from strong outside influences of government or something similar, I believe a gross payment reflects a desire or heart of thankfulness. I have not yet heard that a net is more generous. I suppose the ultimate litmus test is what we would say to Christ. "I thought net was good enough" just doesn't sound strong in my view.

As to thinking that this nation is so heavily taxed that you feel a 10% net is necessary. I suppose if you truly believe that then you have your answer. But I find it interesting to note that most in this nation, even among the poor would disagree with you and pay a 10% gross. Even when I was poor, that is what I paid. Now that things are going well for me I don't see how I could justify a net payment of my income. Increase is income according to the President Hinckley by the way.

Wife and kids also calculate what they do for income.

You do realize you are adding the word "gross". Someone could add the word "net". Someone else could add the "disposable".

[PacMan]

Money is just a medium that is true, it is used to make effective transfers.

I imply that 10% gross is when one gives generously. Aside from strong outside influences of government or something similar, I believe a gross payment reflects a desire or heart of thankfulness. I have not yet heard that a net is more generous. I suppose the ultimate litmus test is what we would say to Christ. "I thought net was good enough" just doesn't sound strong in my view.

As to thinking that this nation is so heavily taxed that you feel a 10% net is necessary. I suppose if you truly believe that then you have your answer. But I find it interesting to note that most in this nation, even among the poor would disagree with you and pay a 10% gross. Even when I was poor, that is what I paid. Now that things are going well for me I don't see how I could justify a net payment of my income. Increase is income according to the President Hinckley by the way.

Wife and kids also calculate what they do for income.

Again, you beg the point. The question isn't what is generous, but what is tithing. To pay ANYTHING is generous. Quantity is simply an issue of degree. Continue to harp that a generous tithing is one based on gross is false doctrine. Moreover, the Brethren for years have talked about generous "tithes and offering." The fact is that offering is subjective. We are encouraged to given generous in regards to our circumstances. Nothing of the sort has ever been stated regarding tithing. If you disagree, then CFR. Otherwise, I think the (non-)issue has been resolved.

PacMan

[Jeff K.]

I have given you the prophets talks and the scriptural references, you can dispute the prophet and scriptures if you wish, but I maintain that if you do so without a generous heart, a willingness and gratefulness to give you will have no blessing in the process.

Perhaps you can show us all where the prophets and apostles encouraged a net payment for tithing. I doubt you can produce it. Or even a reference that encourages something similar to net payment.

Meanwhile I suggest you reread the references I have already placed before you that you have so blithely ignored and have not responded to at all.

[katherine the great]

I suppose one could argue that we should give a tenth of our time to the church as well. Not a tenth of our net time, but our gross time. If we are factoring sleeping time, we are being stingy. Therefore if we are not spending at least 16 and a half hours a week in churc service, we are not receiving the full blessings. of tithing. Now I'M sounding like the Pharisees.

[Jeff K.]

One could argue that. I am not sure what "net time" would be though. Interesting concept. Does that mean while I am making dinner for my family I would simultaneously be making dinner for a family with a sick parent? Can you make net time a subset of fixed time? Though I think many of us do indeed give a minimum of a gross ten percent of our waking hours to the church. If you work in the temple six hours on a Saturday night, two hours teaching the English to a Spanish speaking ward a week, callings in YM, and a few other sections, I would say out of 164 hours, many members put in about 17 in a given week.

I suppose our approaches will always be up for debate Katherine. My personal motivation and this is just me, is that I am so aware of the blessings, the huge blessings and many, that even a gross 10% feels a bit stingy. Part of that is during my calling in the temple I have grown to understand the atonement more than I have in the past and see it as something almost indescribable and what I do something so small and diminutive that I wonder how I could possibly be counted as so lucky.

I also know and acknowledge that the only question asked when you walk in is whether or not you are a full tithe payer. Which leaves the question between the individual and God, and my posts are little more than ruminations that have incited small riots of teeth gnashing.

[Theo]

I recently had a similar discussion with a friend who was helping me create a budget. She was appauled that I was paying tithes on my net and not my gross.

I indicated that while I paid on my net that I always made sure to pay tithes on any tax return. She indicated that I was not taking into account any benefit I might receive from Social Security and any other social benefits, medicare/medicade payments, services from state and county, etc...

Then begins figuring my budget on my net! You can't figure your budget on your gross so why would you pay tithing on your gross?

I explained that if and when I might draw social security I would be happy to pay tithes on it but how do you pay on benefits? The benifits I receive from my current employer do have a value but if you try to figure out how much tithing you actually owe in any given scenario you could pay 10% gross tithes that would amount to 25% of your net!

How much is not enough tithing?

I prefer a simpler solution and pay 10% of anything I get as net income, (that's your actual "increase") including gifts, tax returns, dividends. etc.

But why not pay on my actual increase...that what I have left over after covering the necessities like food, housing, one of my three cars and exclude any credit card debt or unsecure debt?

That is the other extreme...

I believe, and am confident, in the amount I have chosen to pay as tithe and in no way feel any less blessed than someone who believes differently like my friend.

My Bishop admitted paying on net when I asked him so if it's good enough for him I should think it is good enough for me.

Incidently I too beleive that it should be given with a cheerful heart and gratitude but if you are in compliance you are no less qualified to receive any promised blessing. You may be less likley to recognize them if you give grudgingly but your are qualified none the less.

Theo

[Brenda]

Let's not forget the rest of that statement:

"We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly."

That alone should close the debate as to what to pay: gross or net. It's up to the individual; one person, like Jeff K, pays on gross and that's what he feels the Spirit is telling him. Another person might feel the Spirit saying to pay net or some other amount. That's up to them and the Lord and we shouldn't judge.

I completely agree. What someone else pays in tithing is nobody's business but his, his bishop's, and the Lord's.

[awesome0]

I completely agree. What someone else pays in tithing is nobody's business but his, his bishop's, and the Lord's.

Not even bishops business how much he pays. Bishop only checks a box.

[PacMan]

Jeff,

"We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly."

I have not suggested for a moment that paying gross is "wrong." Only that it is not "the" right interpretation. What is clear is that there can be a number of interpretations. To equate "generous" with "gross," and equate them both with "tithing" leaves no way to budge. Yours is a false doctrine and is not supported by either prophetic words or scripture. I have treated your quotes and shown how your conflations and proof-texts are erroneous. You don't agree - so bet it. But to ever suggest that someone paying a net tithing is not generous, or will not get the full blessings because theirs lack the generosity of a gross tithe, is false doctrine, pharisaic, and unfortunate. Your logic is not only lacking, but begs assumptions which you require to prove your thesis. They are erroneous, and I reject them. Let the readers conclude as they may, but we will disagree.

PacMan

[Jeff K.]

Jeff,

I have not suggested for a moment that paying gross is "wrong." Only that it is not "the" right interpretation. What is clear is that there can be a number of interpretations. To equate "generous" with "gross," and equate them both with "tithing" leaves no way to budge. Yours is a false doctrine and is not supported by either prophetic words or scripture. I have treated your quotes and shown how your conflations and proof-texts are erroneous. You don't agree - so bet it. But to ever suggest that someone paying a net tithing is not generous, or will not get the full blessings because theirs lack the generosity of a gross tithe, is false doctrine, pharisaic, and unfortunate. Your logic is not only lacking, but begs assumptions which you require to prove your thesis. They are erroneous, and I reject them. Let the readers conclude as they may, but we will disagree.

PacMan

No not false doctrine, but you have a reading comprehension.

One could argue that. I am not sure what "net time" would be though. Interesting concept. Does that mean while I am making dinner for my family I would simultaneously be making dinner for a family with a sick parent? Can you make net time a subset of fixed time? Though I think many of us do indeed give a minimum of a gross ten percent of our waking hours to the church. If you work in the temple six hours on a Saturday night, two hours teaching the English to a Spanish speaking ward a week, callings in YM, and a few other sections, I would say out of 164 hours, many members put in about 17 in a given week.

I suppose our approaches will always be up for debate Katherine. My personal motivation and this is just me, is that I am so aware of the blessings, the huge blessings and many, that even a gross 10% feels a bit stingy. Part of that is during my calling in the temple I have grown to understand the atonement more than I have in the past and see it as something almost indescribable and what I do something so small and diminutive that I wonder how I could possibly be counted as so lucky.

I also know and acknowledge that the only question asked when you walk in is whether or not you are a full tithe payer. Which leaves the question between the individual and God, and my posts are little more than ruminations that have incited small riots of teeth gnashing.

As you can see point remains valid. Though maybe you feel a little guilty? Not for me to say.

[Brenda]

Not even bishops business how much he pays. Bishop only checks a box.

I said it is the bishop's business what someone pays, meaning whether or not it is a full tithing. You are right that the actual amount is irrelevant to him.

[PacMan]

No not false doctrine, but you have a reading comprehension.

No, but you have a "writing comprehension," whatever that is.

As you can see point remains valid. Though maybe you feel a little guilty? Not for me to say.

Umm...I didn't write that. Maybe you also have "a reading comprehension."

PacMan

[evanrm]

I think tithing is supposed to be a sacrifice of sorts. If it doesn't hurt a bit, it isn't really a sacrifice.

I personally dislike that view of obedience and sacrifice. The widow's mite not withstanding, tithing is still a sacrifice, regardless of the amount. Claiming it should 'hurt' seems to overlook the basic principle of doing what the Lord tells us to do. He said "10%", not "Any amount is okay, as long as it hurts".

Be that as it may, I guess I view it as each to their own. I have been quite blessed as far as income goes, so I can hardly judge another's efforts to obey the Lord.

[evanrm]

If you aren't paying now due to changes in your faith or some other reason, please indicate what you personally would do as a faithful LDS under normal circumstances.

Thank you!

I base my tithing on gross income, since taxes have no relevance to the increase fo wealth I technically recieve. Taxes are like rent or food shopping. At least that's how I've understood it.

[katherine the great]

I personally dislike that view of obedience and sacrifice. The widow's mite not withstanding, tithing is still a sacrifice, regardless of the amount. Claiming it should 'hurt' seems to overlook the basic principle of doing what the Lord teld

ls us to do. He said "10%", not "Any amount is okay, as long as it hurts".

Well I wasn't trying to speak authoritatively. I was just kind of musing about my own experiences with tithing. I certainly never said "any" amount of money counts as tithing. Where did that come from? Tithing MEANS 10 percent.

[Jon63]

When the Church spends it's funds the way Christ would - then I'll pay tithing

Just for added explanation:

Compare the amount spent on TV advertising the fact that Mormons are 'normal' to the amount spent on Haiti or other poor/needy areas.

[bluebell]

Just for added explanation:

Compare the amount spent on TV advertising the fact that Mormons are 'normal' to the amount spent on Haiti or other poor/needy areas.

Could you provide those numbers so we can look at them and compare?

[mnn727]

The question comes when you define what "increase" means.

I can make a great argument that 'increase' does not mean taxes paid where no tangeble benefit is returned (pretty much 90% of Federal taxes would be this way).

Is the interest you pay on your home loan really increase to you? I don't know of any economist that would think so. They classify it as an expese to borrow.

How about insurance - frankly that's gambling - your gamblingthat you will die and teh insurance company gamblingthat you won't.

Frankly I'm tired of all these gross/net discussions - its between the person and God and nobody has the right to say anything more than the Church leaders already have. Contrary to what some people seem to claim here, you are not holier by paying on gross.

[evangelist]

Why churches and religions don't teach the whole teaching on tithes??

The OT tithes was only for the Levi Priest who change this??

one love

[Doctrine 612]

I pay tithing or 10% on the Surplus

Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of aZion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 119:5)

[Jon63]

Am I right in suggesting that tithing isn't a requirement for membership?

It's only required if you wish to attend the Temple isn't it?