Net or Gross Tithing?

[PacMan]

Economics is the study of choices. Finance and accouting are the mehtods used in those choices. I don't see it as an either/or. Much like transitivity is part of the utilization process. The point still rolls down to desire. The incident in my life in which it was saved reflected a desire to give thanks for something I knew clearly saved me from a horrible predicament.

So do I pay gross or net to the man that saved me? Is it even worth the discussion. I think grateful generosity (and that is something between the individual and the Lord) is the term that comes to mind.

Gross vs. net has nothing to do with desire. Grateful generosity isn't the key in tithing - its obedience. Just to be clear.

[Jeff K.]

I disagree. If you pay with a slothful heart, you are being obedient but you are also following the dictates of the pharisees in doing without understanding. The gratefulness in your heart, if that stirs your obedience then you are paying your tithing for the right reason. Grateful generosity does indeed pay a big part in tithing and most of what you do in the church.

[PacMan]

I disagree. If you pay with a slothful heart, you are being obedient but you are also following the dictates of the pharisees in doing without understanding. The gratefulness in your heart, if that stirs your obedience then you are paying your tithing for the right reason. Grateful generosity does indeed pay a big part in tithing and most of what you do in the church.

Now you're just making it up as you go. "Slothful heart?" What's that? And doing without what understanding? This is one commandment which blessing are predicated on obedience. Period. That's exactly why Malachi says "prove me now herewith..." It's spoken to the skeptical and previously unfaithful. We are actually invited to test the Lord, and nothing is said of sentiment. Why one gives is irrelevant to these blessings. Now, that's not to say that there aren't other blessing that are received for being grateful, etc. That's a good thing on its own. But confounding the gross vs. net discussion with illusions of superior gratitude is not only ironically pharisaic in and of itself, but finds no basis in scripture. 10% payment of tithing offers 100% of the blessings. (To contrary of local community banks, there's no such thing as 110%). That's the doctrine, and you are in no position to say otherwise.

Cheers,

PacMan

[Jeff K.]

All blessings are predicated upon obedience but not mere physical obedience.

So, no, I am not making anything up, but I will tell you the pharisees were a most obedient people, they did follow the law to the letter. Your advocacy does the exact same thing. Therefore I am forced to disagree with it.

If you are obedient with a hard heart towards the law then no blessing will come to you. Doctrine and Covenants 58

29But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned.

One should be anxiously engaged this meaning is significant in the same chapter. Obedience alone as you can see is insufficient. Obedient in heart and mind is required, not simply physical obedience.

Period.

Apparently there is more to obedience than you are aware of.

[Jeff K.]

But confounding the gross vs. net discussion with illusions of superior gratitude is not only ironically pharisaic in and of itself, but finds no basis in scripture. 10% payment of tithing offers 100% of the blessings. (To contrary of local community banks, there's no such thing as 110%). That's the doctrine, and you are in no position to say otherwise.

To me you are stating that regardless of the attitude a person has when he pays tithing, he recieves the blessings. I disagree. Physically the person is certainly obedient. But if the person fulfills the commandment reluctantly without a heart towards obedience, then the blessings will be denied and that person will be damned. Now what state of mind does one have when paying tithing if not grateful? Is it "the church owes me because I am supporting admin", is it "because I have to" or is it "a tradition of my people". All of these are inadequate because they do not approach obedience with the ideal of humility.

Is it 110%, no, but if you do not approach the commandments correctly, you are giving 80% or perhaps 20% not sure, but certianly one is inadequate.

[Let_Us_Reason]

Just in case this hasn't been said here yet:

"The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay 'one-tenth of all their interest annually,' which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this." Gordon Hinckley, 1970.

Let's not forget the rest of that statement:

"We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly."

That alone should close the debate as to what to pay: gross or net. It's up to the individual; one person, like Jeff K, pays on gross and that's what he feels the Spirit is telling him. Another person might feel the Spirit saying to pay net or some other amount. That's up to them and the Lord and we shouldn't judge.

[Let_Us_Reason]

Perhaps, but then, would you consider net fasting as opposed to fasting. Ie, I am really not hungry so I will pass on the creme brulee and count it as a fast. Tongue in cheek of course.

Remember one can count any rule adhered to as pharisaitical (I think its right), the difference is whether one is following the spirit of the law, or simply following the law. In both the law is almost always followed.

I think there are clear, close-ended commandments and open-ended commandments. A pretty close-ended commandment is thou shalt not kill (I know some will bring up war, self-defense, but you get my point.) A open-ended commandment is keep the sabbath day holy. One person's holy activities is another person's sabbath breaker. It's up to the individual and God.

Likewise with tithing and fasting. Fasting is close-ended (go without food for 2 consecutive meals). Tithing is open-ended (up to the individual and God [see my reply to Brenda's post])

[bluebell]

Let's not forget the rest of that statement:

"We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly."

That alone should close the debate as to what to pay: gross or net. It's up to the individual; one person, like Jeff K, pays on gross and that's what he feels the Spirit is telling him. Another person might feel the Spirit saying to pay net or some other amount. That's up to them and the Lord and we shouldn't judge.

I think the only time it's an issue is when one person tries to tell someone else that they need to do tithing a specific way or it's not tithing.

That seems to be the time when this topic gets contentious.

[Jeff K.]

I think there are clear, close-ended commandments and open-ended commandments. A pretty close-ended commandment is thou shalt not kill (I know some will bring up war, self-defense, but you get my point.) A open-ended commandment is keep the sabbath day holy. One person's holy activities is another person's sabbath breaker. It's up to the individual and God.

Likewise with tithing and fasting. Fasting is close-ended (go without food for 2 consecutive meals). Tithing is open-ended (up to the individual and God [see my reply to Brenda's post])

Just so you know, "thou shalt not kill" is definately not a close ended commandment when you consider the original Hebrew is murder not kill.

It is fine to bring up the theories of close ended or open ended commandments, but I would also ask, if, when you fast, you simply skimp on dessert alone (net fasting) or skip meals completely (gross fasting)? Now some due to health reasons that they cannot control are forced to "net fast" but those who are healthy, and able, do they need to "net fast" is that enough? Sometimes prodding helps when someone is trying to decide.

I believe the same holds true with my point on tithing. What sacrifice is there when it is merely deciding to pay tithing instead of going to Disney Land based on net discretionary income, versus tithing that is a ten percent gross that may include additional more substantial sacrifices? I think common sense dictates, for someone who has done so much for you that to skimp or lesson the sacrifice we make in order to lessen the pain of sacrifice we make for someone who did not lessen His pain for us, is, in my view ungrateful and unseemly. Unless of course there is a strong reason to go net and in that sense I consider an onerous government tax without the opportunity of deduction to be a potentially good reason. As to using the difference between net and gross to help other financial victims, I would say we are more blessed when we pay a gross tithe and truly sacrifice by continuing to give more to those who need.

And yes, the final arbiter is what the spirit leads you to do. I have always felt that to be the important confirmation that all should seek, as Joseph Smith did.

[LDSToronto]

I think there are clear, close-ended commandments and open-ended commandments. A pretty close-ended commandment is thou shalt not kill (I know some will bring up war, self-defense, but you get my point.) A open-ended commandment is keep the sabbath day holy. One person's holy activities is another person's sabbath breaker. It's up to the individual and God.

Likewise with tithing and fasting. Fasting is close-ended (go without food for 2 consecutive meals). Tithing is open-ended (up to the individual and God [see my reply to Brenda's post])

I think with enough rationalization and apologetics, just about any commandment becomes open-ended.

H.

[awesome0]

Just so you know, "thou shalt not kill" is definately not a close ended commandment when you consider the original Hebrew is murder not kill.

It is fine to bring up the theories of close ended or open ended commandments, but I would also ask, if, when you fast, you simply skimp on dessert alone (net fasting) or skip meals completely (gross fasting)? Now some due to health reasons that they cannot control are forced to "net fast" but those who are healthy, and able, do they need to "net fast" is that enough? Sometimes prodding helps when someone is trying to decide.

I believe the same holds true with my point on tithing. What sacrifice is there when it is merely deciding to pay tithing instead of going to Disney Land based on net discretionary income, versus tithing that is a ten percent gross that may include additional more substantial sacrifices? I think common sense dictates, for someone who has done so much for you that to skimp or lesson the sacrifice we make in order to lessen the pain of sacrifice we make for someone who did not lessen His pain for us, is, in my view ungrateful and unseemly. Unless of course there is a strong reason to go net and in that sense I consider an onerous government tax without the opportunity of deduction to be a potentially good reason. As to using the difference between net and gross to help other financial victims, I would say we are more blessed when we pay a gross tithe and truly sacrifice by continuing to give more to those who need.

And yes, the final arbiter is what the spirit leads you to do. I have always felt that to be the important confirmation that all should seek, as Joseph Smith did.

I agree fully. And the spirit prompted Joseph to translate genesis 14:39. Look it up.

"Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need."

Sounds to me like Abraham paid on net after taking care of needs.

[PacMan]

Jeff,

All blessings are predicated upon obedience but not mere physical obedience.

Again, what in the world does that mean? You

[PacMan]

Jeff,

I think common sense dictates, for someone who has done so much for you that to skimp or lesson the sacrifice we make in order to lessen the pain of sacrifice we make for someone who did not lessen His pain for us, is, in my view ungrateful and unseemly

That

[Jeff K.]

Quote

All blessings are predicated upon obedience but not mere physical obedience.

Again, what in the world does that mean? You

[Robspectre]

I pay on Net. If taxes were 90 percent of my Gross, would I still pay 10%? Pay Caesar what is Caesars. Caesars can pay his own Tithing. I do not pay Tithing for the sake of Blessings, but Blessings are a nice perk!

[PacMan]

Jeff,

You have't countered the post at all. Perhaps you don't understand what it means, but it is fairly supportive of my position.

I have used numerous scriptures, including those dealting with tithing and commandments as well as the word of modern apostles and prophets. I suggest you reread the posts.

It

[awesome0]

Jeff,

It

[Jeff K.]

Apparently Pacman is unaware of that and believes the mere act is sufficient to recieve any and all blessings. As if the mere act of being baptized forgives you of your sins, and if you do it for selfish reasons? To Pacman it doesn't matter. It didn't matter to the Pharisees either. It is why Christ so often rebuked them.

[katherine the great]

Apparently Pacman is unaware of that and believes the mere act is sufficient to recieve any and all blessings. As if the mere act of being baptized forgives you of your sins, and if you do it for selfish reasons? To Pacman it doesn't matter. It didn't matter to the Pharisees either. It is why Christ so often rebuked them.

That isn't what Pacman is saying. There are blessings that come to us from being obedient. The more we become in tune with God's will, the more happy we are to be obedient. That happiness is the extra blessing right there, but we are blessed for the obedience whether or not we are fully joyful to do it or not. Why on earth would someone part with 10 percent of their income if they hate the Lord and His church? That doesn't make any sense. The Lord is happy with any progress we make and often the act of obedience itself leads to increased love and understanding.

[Jeff K.]

No, Pacman is saying the act itself regardless of what is in the heart is the defining act.

The more we become in tune with God's will, the more happy we are to be obedient.

I agree with your point the we become in tune not however the mere act of obedience which is Pacman's stance on the subject. I know people who pay that do so without being in tune with the spirit and do so because they fear different things, perhaps losing their respect from their bishop, or their husband or wife. They are obedient, but not for the right reason.

Doing something for the purpose of being obedient, is enough.

Are his words. The reasons behind obedience is, as I maintain the defining of whether one gives with a grateful heart and generosity (reflecting the same). Not simply obedience.

[Jeff K.]

6But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall areap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

7Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

2nd Corinthians 9

As I said, obedience alone is not enough.

[katherine the great]

No, Pacman is saying the act itself regardless of what is in the heart is the defining act.

Are his words. The reasons behind obedience is, as I maintain the defining of whether one gives with a grateful heart and generosity (reflecting the same). Not simply obedience.

Pacman is responding (as seem to be others on this thread) to your insistence that it is better to go beyond the mark. Our modern prophets have defined what the Lord expects of us and it is to pay one tenth of our increase. We've been told very specifically that we are not to admonish each other about what that means, but it is a personal decision between us and the Lord. Pacman argues (and I agree) that we are to do what we are told and everything else is gravy. When I tell my children to do the dishes and we can go to the movies, I don't care if they don't want to do it. If they do it, I take them to the movies. Now, I might decide to bestow extra popcorn or treats on them if they do it joyfully(or not), but I still give them the promised reward whether they do it happily or not. The blessing that comes to them from doing it happily is that they spend that fifteen minutes happily instead of miserably. That IS the reward for their attitude.

[Jeff K.]

I have not gone beyond the mark, I have not insisted that we pay 11%. I have noted that the spirit of the giving is as important as the act of obedience itself. I have presented my view on the subject and admonished no one to accept my view on the subject.

Obedience as a mere act is not sufficient. The Pharisees were highly obedient, the followed the law to the letter. They were strict adherents to the law. I don't think the Lord wants us to be pharisees or sadducees or any other sect, He corrected them for their adherence and obedience without understanding the spirit and doing things with proper intent. The scriptural reference in Corinthians and other scriptural references I have provided show that. The talks given by prophets show that. Christ's reflection upon the sects that followed his rules but lost his spirit reflect that.

Mere obedience without the proper attitude and spirit is like going through a temple session or hitting your hometeaching numbers because you don't want to look bad in front of your quorum president or bishop rather than doing so with the pure love of Christ. Action without proper intent does not profit a person. Pacman insists that it does.

[katherine the great]

I have not gone beyond the mark, I have not insisted that we pay 11%. I have noted that the spirit of the giving is as important as the act of obedience itself. I have presented my view on the subject and admonished no one to accept my view on the subject.

From the sound of your posts, you believe that full blessings only come from paying 10% of gross earnings and that a person who pays on the net is not a full tithe payer. BTW, I also pay on the gross, but I haven't noticed more blessing coming to my family than the blessings that come to my Bishop Brother who pays on his net.

[Jeff K.]

From the sound of your posts, you believe that full blessings only come from paying 10% of gross earnings and that a person who pays on the net is not a full tithe payer. BTW, I also pay on the gross, but I haven't noticed more blessing coming to my family than the blessings that come to my Bishop Brother who pays on his net.

Is such a payment beyond the mark? I wasn't aware that paying 10% of your gross was beyond the mark. And I do not do it for the blessing, which is gravy to me. But I do it for the attitude with my knowledge as Christ's debtor. If no blessing were offered I would still pay.

Nor has Pacman acknowledge the allowance for different economic environments. What does reduction of your tithing through a net process (when you aren't forced to economically) say to the God you worship?