bluebell Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Why churches and religions don't teach the whole teaching on tithes??The OT tithes was only for the Levi Priest who change this??one loveCan you provide references for this idea? It would be interesting to understand where you are coming from.
katherine the great Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Can you provide references for this idea? It would be interesting to understand where you are coming from.Tithing was primarily for the support of the temple and the Levites. Jews were also supposed to pay a festival tithe to pay for their primary annual festivals and also a tithe for the poor, but I believe this was every third year. I personally think our tithes are rather similar because they are used to build and support our temples and chapels where we worship and also used to run the church. It costs money to run an organization even with mostly volunteer labor.
bluebell Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Tithing was primarily for the support of the temple and the Levites. Jews were also supposed to pay a festival tithe to pay for their primary annual festivals and also a tithe for the poor, but I believe this was every third year. I personally think our tithes are rather similar because they are used to build and support our temples and chapels where we worship and also used to run the church. It costs money to run an organization even with mostly volunteer labor.Oh, i thought he was saying that only the Levite priests paid tithing. I couldn't figure out where he was getting that.
katherine the great Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 Oh, i thought he was saying that only the Levite priests paid tithing. I couldn't figure out where he was getting that.Oh haha! I wonder though if the Levites were exempt from paying the tithe for the poor.
Jon63 Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 It costs money to run an organization even with mostly volunteer labor.It does, the General Authroities stipends and company cars don't come cheap.What proportion of tithing goes on helping the poor and the needy in comparison to the money spent on running the Church? Nobody can answer that the because the Church doesn't produce financial information, hmmmm....What we can compare is the data on Church funds that is available:1. LDS Money spent on humanitarian (poor & needy) aid in total for the last 25 years = $1.1 billion2. LDS Money spent by the Church tarting up Salt Lake City with one shopping mall, condo complex and some offices = significantly more than number 1.If Christ returned tomorrow do you think he would continue this building project whilst the people of Haiti die from desease?You can tell the nature of an organization by what it does.How are you not embarassed?
bluebell Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 It does, the General Authroities stipends and company cars don't come cheap.This shot was definitely cheap.What proportion of tithing goes on helping the poor and the needy in comparison to the money spent on running the Church? Nobody can answer that the because the Church doesn't produce financial information, hmmmm....Tithing isn't supposed to go to help the poor and the needy. It's a completely different fund.What we can compare is the data on Church funds that is available:1. LDS Money spent on humanitarian (poor & needy) aid in total for the last 25 years = $1.1 billion2. LDS Money spent by the Church tarting up Salt Lake City with one shopping mall, condo complex and some offices = significantly more than number 1.If Christ returned tomorrow do you think he would continue this building project whilst the people of Haiti die from desease?You can tell the nature of an organization by what it does.How are you not embarassed?The church is more than just a charity. I think that the leadership of the church is doing the best it can and i think Jesus is pleased with that.That's personally why I'M not embarrassed.
Jon63 Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 The church is more than just a charity.I agree with you on this, the Church is1. The Corporation of the President and 2. The Corporation of the Presiding BishopricTithing doesn't go towards the poor and the needy? WOW, just WOW
bluebell Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 I agree with you on this, the Church is1. The Corporation of the President and 2. The Corporation of the Presiding BishopricTithing doesn't go towards the poor and the needy? WOW, just WOWI thought you said you were an active member of the church? How do you not know what tithing is used for? (and just so you know, tithing isn't being used to fund the mall project either).It says it right on the church's website where tithing goes, and as Katherine pointed out, it functions prety much as it did in OT times-to support the running of the Church. Tithing is used for:
Jon63 Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 I thought you said you were an active member of the church? How do you not know what tithing is used for? (and just so you know, tithing isn't being used to fund the mall project either).It says it right on the church's website where tithing goes, and as Katherine pointed out, it functions prety much as it did in OT times-to support the running of the Church. Tithing is used for:
katherine the great Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 It does, the General Authroities stipends and company cars don't come cheap.What proportion of tithing goes on helping the poor and the needy in comparison to the money spent on running the Church? Nobody can answer that the because the Church doesn't produce financial information, hmmmm....What we can compare is the data on Church funds that is available:1. LDS Money spent on humanitarian (poor & needy) aid in total for the last 25 years = $1.1 billion2. LDS Money spent by the Church tarting up Salt Lake City with one shopping mall, condo complex and some offices = significantly more than number 1.If Christ returned tomorrow do you think he would continue this building project whilst the people of Haiti die from desease?You can tell the nature of an organization by what it does.How are you not embarassed?Quote from Jesus: "For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always." That is a fact. We could spend every penny that comes into the church on the poor, and they would still be legion and then we would have no church and no way to worship and reach out spiritually to others. You obviously have no experience running an organization. I have experience running a few small organizations and even if I didn't have to pay my employees, there are still a lot of expenses--almost enough to drive you nuts. I can't even imagine what it would be like trying to run an organization with 12 million plus members? (let me guess--you will dispute that number because of activity rates, so let's just say 6 million for fun.) If you were in charge of an organization with 6 million people, would you give all of your income away to the poor and not invest any of it into the building up of the organization? If so, I think Jesus would be displeased with the way you handled your stewardship. Please refer to the parable of the talents. An organization that is irresponsibly run I would be ashamed of.
ELF1024 Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 If Christ returned tomorrow do you think he would continue this building project whilst the people of Haiti die from desease?Yes, I do think that Christ would allow the people of Haiti to continue to die from disease. At what point does your own personal responsiblity come into play? At what point do you have to accept responsibility for your own actions to pull yourself up from your own filth and make better of your own life.How much money has been thrown at Haiti and what good has it done? What has their stewardship of their country been worth? Once again, refer back to the parable of the talents.
Jon63 Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 Quote from Jesus: "For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always." That is a fact. We could spend every penny that comes into the church on the poor, and they would still be legion and then we would have no church and no way to worship and reach out spiritually to others. You obviously have no experience running an organization. I have experience running a few small organizations and even if I didn't have to pay my employees, there are still a lot of expenses--almost enough to drive you nuts. I can't even imagine what it would be like trying to run an organization with 12 million plus members? (let me guess--you will dispute that number because of activity rates, so let's just say 6 million for fun.) If you were in charge of an organization with 6 million people, would you give all of your income away to the poor and not invest any of it into the building up of the organization? If so, I think Jesus would be displeased with the way you handled your stewardship. Please refer to the parable of the talents. An organization that is irresponsibly run I would be ashamed of.Interesting point of view and I commend you for having a stab at guessing active member numbers.An organization that is iresponsibly run I would be ashamed of...Let's think about the Good Samaritan.Figuratively speaking, is building the City Creek Mall (a project that is going to make a loss in the hundreds of millions of dollars even after all the condo's and offices are sold/leased) whilst people are going hungry around the world, the equivalent of 'walking by on the other side of the road'....I may be wrong in this but here's a little challenge if you're up for it.Tonight when you kneel in prayer, sincerely ask the Lord if he really wants a Shopping Mall and see if your bosom burns.
ELF1024 Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 Let's think about the Good Samaritan.Figuratively speaking, is building the City Creek Mall (a project that is going to make a loss in the hundreds of millions of dollars even after all the condo's and offices are sold/leased) whilst people are going hungry around the world, the equivalent of 'walking by on the other side of the road'....And how many of these people have already had the good samaritan come and nurse them back to health, and are now demanding the the GS continue to care for them because they are too lazy or content to live off the milk of human kindness and will not do anything for themselves?Charity doesn't mean you have to support a lazy man for life.
Jon63 Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 Yes, I do think that Christ would allow the people of Haiti to continue to die from disease. At what point does your own personal responsiblity come into play? At what point do you have to accept responsibility for your own actions to pull yourself up from your own filth and make better of your own life.How much money has been thrown at Haiti and what good has it done? What has their stewardship of their country been worth? Once again, refer back to the parable of the talents.I'm gobsmacked, truly gobsmacked.
ELF1024 Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 I'm gobsmacked, truly gobsmacked.The LDS Church isn't the only organization that has thrown money at Haiti. Millions have been sent to Haiti, and what good as it done? What are they doing for themselves? How much rebuliding has happened in the past year. Why wasn't the Dominican Republic, on the SAME ISLAND just as devistated by the earthquake as Haiti?
katherine the great Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 Interesting point of view and I commend you for having a stab at guessing active member numbers.An organization that is iresponsibly run I would be ashamed of...Let's think about the Good Samaritan.Figuratively speaking, is building the City Creek Mall (a project that is going to make a loss in the hundreds of millions of dollars even after all the condo's and offices are sold/leased) whilst people are going hungry around the world, the equivalent of 'walking by on the other side of the road'....I may be wrong in this but here's a little challenge if you're up for it.Tonight when you kneel in prayer, sincerely ask the Lord if he really wants a Shopping Mall and see if your bosom burns.Are you just hung up on the shopping mall? I admit that wouldn't have been my choice for an investment at first, but I see the wisdom in it when I ponder it. First of all, it is right across the street from Temple Square which is really the face of the church to most people. I'm not from Utah but I can remember noticing how run down Salt Lake City seemed as soon as I stepped off of temple square. I think the church is trying very hard to improve the area around temple square. I'm sorry you find that ridiculous but I find it very practical to beautify the area surrounding the temple and make it more pleasant and safe for visitors. New York City was a cesspool of crime and poverty in the 70's and 80's and it took a whole lot of money and vision to make it into the relatively safe and beautiful place it is today. They didn't do it by giving away all the tax payer money to welfare. They did it by giving the money to law enforcement and investing it into the "broken windows" plan that beautified the area. Crime is down significantly, and the residents enjoy a much greater quality of life now than then. Now, obviously we are a church and not a city, but our headquarters is located in a city and we ARE an organization whether we choose to view ourselves as such or not. I don't run the church, but I trust the leaders and I know enough about business to know that you have to lose money in order to make money. I trust our leaders to be wise stewards of the Lord's money and I believe the Lord trusts them too. Just out of curiosity, have you been to Haiti?
katherine the great Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 The LDS Church isn't the only organization that has thrown money at Haiti. Millions have been sent to Haiti, and what good as it done? What are they doing for themselves? How much rebuliding has happened in the past year. Why wasn't the Dominican Republic, on the SAME ISLAND just as devistated by the earthquake as Haiti?The DR is not as poor as Haiti. Haiti collapsed because the buildings were poorly built. This is not because of their wickedness or slothfulness. These are NOT lazy people. It is because of their government. The Haitian people I have known are amazing and more intelligent than most Americans I know.
ELF1024 Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 The DR is not as poor as Haiti. Haiti collapsed because the buildings were poorly built. This is not because of their wickedness or slothfulness. These are NOT lazy people. It is because of their government. The Haitian people I have known are amazing and more intelligent than most Americans I know.All people are wicked, slothful and lazy. I was not implying that the Hatian people were any more so or any less so. I wasn't implying that the earthquake was due to the wickeness or slothfulness of the people. I have no idea why the earthquake happened. Yes, I agree that the government of Haiti is to blame. Yet, it is still a fact that millions has been poured into the country, with very little to show for it.Personal responsiblity and stewardship are major components of my belief in the LDS church. You can only live on welfare for so long before you should be required to return to being a productive member of society.
bluebell Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 I accept your chastisement. I really should know better and I will try and learn a bit more.Can you point me in the direction of the financial information that will show me how much is spent on each of these areas? Actually just a total figure would suffice.Thanks in anticipationYou'd probably hurt yourself if you attempted actual sincerity. I can see why you steer clear of it. Diversionary tactics are best used when you've completely lost the point but don't want to concede. As you know, the LDS church doesn't disclose those figures so yeah, for people in your mind frame, it's a good topic to focus on-doensn't prove your arguement, but still handy to whip out in a pinch.
Jon63 Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 You'd probably hurt yourself if you attempted actual sincerity. I can see why you steer clear of it. Diversionary tactics are best used when you've completely lost the point but don't want to concede. As you know, the LDS church doesn't disclose those figures so yeah, for people in your mind frame, it's a good topic to focus on-doensn't prove your arguement, but still handy to whip out in a pinch. LOL, yes I think I would struggle to attempt sincerity.Personally I think spending all that Church money on the City Creek centre is appalling.Think of the difference those funds could make if properly managed around the world. The Church could even afford to put in a management structure to make sure they were properly utilised.The fact that the Church doesn't disclose financial information shows (in my view) that they are frightened of how it would be perceived/used - they hide it for a reason.If funds were being used by inspiration they should have nothing to fear by being open about it.
ELF1024 Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 LOL, yes I think I would struggle to attempt sincerity.Personally I think spending all that Church money on the City Creek centre is appalling.Think of the difference those funds could make if properly managed around the world. The Church could even afford to put in a management structure to make sure they were properly utilised.Funny, don't we have enough aide organizations already... Red Cross, Red Crecent, United Nations, United Way, US State Dept.The fact that the Church doesn't disclose financial information shows (in my view) that they are frightened of how it would be perceived/used - they hide it for a reason.If funds were being used by inspiration they should have nothing to fear by being open about it.Oh please... gimme a break. That is a pile of manure.
katherine the great Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 LOL, yes I think I would struggle to attempt sincerity.Personally I think spending all that Church money on the City Creek centre is appalling.Think of the difference those funds could make if properly managed around the world. The Church could even afford to put in a management structure to make sure they were properly utilised.The fact that the Church doesn't disclose financial information shows (in my view) that they are frightened of how it would be perceived/used - they hide it for a reason.If funds were being used by inspiration they should have nothing to fear by being open about it.So do you believe in paying on the net or gross? I think that's the topic.
bluebell Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 LOL, yes I think I would struggle to attempt sincerity.Personally I think spending all that Church money on the City Creek centre is appalling.Think of the difference those funds could make if properly managed around the world. The Church could even afford to put in a management structure to make sure they were properly utilised.The fact that the Church doesn't disclose financial information shows (in my view) that they are frightened of how it would be perceived/used - they hide it for a reason.If funds were being used by inspiration they should have nothing to fear by being open about it.Isn't it great how we can each have our opinions and freedom not to give to organizations we don't personally trust? Now, i'm sure you have donations to make in your quest to personally end poverty, so i'll leave you to it.
Vance Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 So do you believe in paying on the net or gross? I think that's the topic.Those that tend to complain the loudest about how the Church spends money don't actually give money to the Church.
katherine the great Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 Those that tend to complain the loudest about how the Church spends money don't actually give money to the Church.Most likely that is true. If I felt that the church was grossly mismanaging tithing funds, I would probably quit paying my tithing and give more to other organizations.
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