Michael R. Ash: Is the Tower of Babel historical or mythological?

[semlogo]

Oh and how dare a "Mormon" be concerned" about the "Mormon Church". Also I guess you missed the part about me praising his two books. And how dare I support the 12 and the 1st Presidency as they share my views and are called of God and probably know him "face to face". Oh and the "we" not "he" that I made the comment about. Also I do not believe he holds a PhD. Oh the audacity of an uneducated fool as myself. There I go breaking the rule again. BTW...I have never suggested anyone isn an apostate. Anymore falsehoods you want to make concerning me?

More red herrings. No one is complaining about your viewpoint, only how you chose to express it.

You can climb down off that cross any time now. No one has brought any nails, even though you seem to think you're being crucified.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Papa, without knowing you, I still believe you're a wonderful person who has done much good in this world, along with a strong testimony of the Gospel, who is trying very hard to seek truth and understand the Lord's will. I apologize if I have hurt your feelings, or have led you to feel otherwise.

I do hope you can believe the same of others who disagree with your understanding on matters of scriptural interpretation.

You can go to the Social Folder and give your opinion. My love for this Church and Christ and my passion is (are) maybe too much. Maybe I need to be more practical

[cinepro]

I think there might be some resistance on the part of LDS leaders to a re-interpretation of the Tower of Babel (and Noah's Flood) towards being a myth for one reason:

If the Tower Of Babel isn't a literal, accurately re-told story, then some people might logically wonder if the story of Adam and Eve and the Fall isn't also a "myth" instead of a literal, historical account of a real man and woman who actually lived in an immortal paradise and brought death into the world by being disobedient.

It's a very logical progression of thought (after all, the story of Adam and Eve is much older and more unusually supernatural than the Flood or Babel stories), and one which could be very, very damaging to a literal belief in the Plan of Salvation.

Some LDS might be very comfortable re-classifying Babel and Noah's Flood as mythical events while maintaining a firm belief in the literalness of the story of the Fall. But how many won't? How many can't? And how many is too many? Maybe with the help of Mike Ash and Mormon Times, we'll start to find out.

[David T]

I think there might be some resistance on the part of LDS leaders to a re-interpretation of the Tower of Babel (and Noah's Flood) towards being a myth for one reason:

If the Tower Of Babel isn't a literal, accurately re-told story, then some people might logically wonder if the story of Adam and Eve and the Fall isn't also a "myth" instead of a literal, historical account of a real man and woman who actually lived in an immortal paradise and brought death into the world by being disobedient.

It's a very logical progression of thought (after all, the story of Adam and Eve is much older and more unusually supernatural than the Flood or Babel stories), and one which could be very, very damaging to a literal belief in the Plan of Salvation.

Some LDS might be very comfortable re-classifying Babel and Noah's Flood as mythical events while maintaining a firm belief in the literalness of the story of the Fall. But how many won't? How many can't? And how many is too many? Maybe with the help of Mike Ash and Mormon Times, we'll start to find out.

As I've said before, I think the Fall is personal.

1. We all lived in a state where we could no longer progress in the presence of God.

2. We all made a decision, without knowing what it fully meant, to fall into Mortality.

3. We all made a decision at some point to transgress a Law of God, thus falling away from God Spiritually.

4. We all need to rely on the Atonement to return us to God's presence, and to cleanse us of our Sins, preparing us for our Return.

'Adam' would just need to be the first child of God to participate in this pattern.

A literal belief in an ancient man eating fruit in a deathless garden really has no importance in and of itself concerning our salvation, or in the Plan of Salvation in general - but it is a powerful visual message that can - and has - taught us (and myself) many things about our lives, and God's plan for us.

[cinepro]

A literal belief in an ancient man eating fruit in a deathless garden really has no importance in and of itself concerning our salvation, or in the Plan of Salvation in general - but it is a powerful visual message that can - and has - taught us (and myself) many things about our lives, and God's plan for us.

And thus ends any dream nackhadlow had of ever being on the Correlation Committee.

[David T]

And thus ends any dream nackhadlow had of ever being on the Correlation Committee.

- Being a High Councilor is enough work, thanks. I have no ambitions of ever moving to Utah. I look forward to the day I'm released, and get to work in nursery with my wife.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

- Being a High Councilor is enough work, thanks. I have no ambitions of every moving to Utah. I look forward to the day I'm released, and get to work in nursery with my wife.

Brother on the moving to Utah...we can totally agree. Even though I love Utah, but I am Southern born and Southern breed, and here I will die! .

[thesometimesaint]

Pa Pa:

Four almost five years in the South was quite enough for me, but then again only two years in Utah was too.

With friends and family all here in southern California. It looks like I'm here for the duration of my mortal existence. An added plus is we have four season just like the South. We just call them the Fire Season, the Flood Season, the Drought Season, and the Earthquake Season.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Pa Pa:

Four almost five years in the South was quite enough for me, but then again only two years in Utah was too.

With friends and family all here in southern California. It looks like I'm here for the duration of my mortal existence. An added plus is we have four season just like the South. We just call them the Fire Season, the Flood Season, the Drought Season, and the Earthquake Season.

At long as it is somewhere south. Those people from the north (except GG) I am not so sure about.

[semlogo]

The South will never rise again. Just sayin.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The South will never rise again. Just sayin.

Oh ye of little faith.

[semlogo]

Oh ye of little faith.

Chick-fil-A is actually a Yankee invention - we've put them all over the South to keep you gray coats pacified and too full to rise up.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Chick-fil-A is actually a Yankee invention - we've put them all over the South to keep you gray coats pacified and too full to rise up.

Not...the original store is right down the road from my office. Try again Yankee scum!

[semlogo]

Not...the original store is right down the road from my office. Try again Yankee scum!

S. Truett Cathy is our best agent.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

S. Truett Cathy is our best agent.

How long did he train for his southern accent?

[Whiskeypete]

The language of Jared, his brother, and friends were not confounded.

I can see two ways to interpret that phrase.

1. This group all had their language changed together, thus they could still understand each other.
   
2. Their language wasn't changed from what it was before.
   

I know that #2 is the "traditional" LDS interpretation, and it leads to the assumption that the Jaredite language was equal to the Adamic tongue. But I think that it reading something into the text that isn't there.

[semlogo]

How long did he train for his southern accent?

He had to watch every Looney Tunes featuring Foghorn Leghorn as research before beginning his mission.

[mfbukowski]

How long did he train for his southern accent?

Speaking of the confounding of tongues.....

[Robert F. Smith]

So it is but I think the answer to the tower of Babel account and some other accounts is probably something nobody has publicly espoused as of yet. Don't get in a hurry to tuck in the edges. Leave some hanging out to catch on things and remind us that everything does not always wrap up into neat packages and we may need to keep looking for the answers. In other words for me the myth answers just don't quite cut it.

Certainly Ether thought it was true, but then he was separated from the supposed event by thousands of years. How are we in any different situation? Nibley's approach to this and the associated Nimrod legend is best: It is the typology which ought to catch our attention.

[Robert F. Smith]

Moroni wrote the Title Page of the BoM, which reiterates the reality of the Tower.

There were plenty of temple towers (ziggurats) in Sumer & Akkad, beginning at a date long before the Tower of Babel mentioned in Genesis. Once unified languages have also changed and become less mutually intelligible over time. These are the facts. Could it be that we have a variety of etiological explanations for these facts? This reminds me of Schliemann's notion that the legends of Troy (Ilium) might have a kernel of historical fact, and that the Mycaenean age might have been an age of heroic achievement -- including literacy. Since then, we have indeed found that Linear A & B writing was being used by the Achaians (ancient Greeks) and Minoans, but was later lost, and that there was a great civilization in Late Bronze Age Greece and the Aegean.

[Robert F. Smith]

Myth has to do with function. The birth, atonement, death and resurrection of Christ is a myth- but one that I believe truly did happen.

Wasn't that how C. S. Lewis realized the truth of Christianity? Did Joseph Smith believe that holy writ could be interpreted via allegory, figuration, and metaphor? Compare D&C 77.

[Nathair/|\]

I understand a myth to be a story we are to "liken...unto ourselves" or one that tells us something fundamental about ourselves. The accounts of George Washington praying at Valley Forge and Abraham Lincoln praying during the Civil War that he would be on God's side are myths, but they also literally happened.

[Hyrum Page]

I voted mythological. At a certain point I think it doesn't matter. History is interpretation, and people interpret through their narrative habits.

By the way, I enjoyed Ash's article. Good stuff.

[katherine the great]

The South will never rise again. Just sayin.

This made me laugh. When I visited my brother in North Carolina last March, I mentioned the Civil war and he corrected me by saying, "You mean The War of Northern aggression!"

[mfbukowski]

I voted mythological. At a certain point I think it doesn't matter. History is interpretation, and people interpret through their narrative habits.

By the way, I enjoyed Ash's article. Good stuff.