Michael R. Ash: Is the Tower of Babel historical or mythological?

[David T]

Is revelation on historical matter limited to the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve? Or is it possible that the the Lord can open up the way for those seeking truth through scientific means to open up treasures of knowledge that increase our understanding of his work as well?

Does believing in one channel of Revelation mean we have to deny other means by which historical truth comes to light?

A Revelator, a Revelator, we have a Revelator, and can use no more truth-revealers!

[semlogo]

He who has ears...

"For some in the modern world, the historicity of the tower of Babel story, as with the Flood, is often discounted. One modern school of thought considers the account to be nothing more than an

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The Noah's Ark story and the Tower of Babel are stories for children, not to be taken at face value.

Are you my stalker now? Then the whole Bible is for Children's stories, and there is no God.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

If you're looking for scripture inerrancy, you're in the wrong religion.

I am beginning to see that.

[David T]

Sevenbak:

Please tell us what essential doctrines of Christ, the Gospel and the Plan of Salvation we are denying and contending against that would make that Moroni statement applicable as a "harsh" chastisement to us who acknowledge Revelation and Scholarship?

[Sevenbak]

Professor Parry was off the mark. But there is certainly middle ground between his position and the one he is arguing against.

He hit the mark.

There is no middle ground. Either it happened or it didn't. Either the prophets from both sides of the world wrote about it, or they didn't.

Jared and his families experienced it first hand, and the Lord preserved the record for our day.

Either they lied or they didn't.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

It never ceases to amaze me how weak some people's faith is that they must cling to a literalist interpretation of Old Testament stories, despite the clear facts to the contrary and despite church doctrine that states the Bible (and even other scriptures) is NOT inerrant. Aren't we supposed to be seeking wisdom and knowledge from whatever source we may find it in? Modern science sheds some light on some of the old OT stories. There was never a global flood and the origin of different languages didn't start at Babel. So what? Is your faith so weak that it will crumble in the light of these facts? Maybe it was a local flood. Maybe Babel happened, but wasn't the origin of languages (that fits the BOM story better, anyway). The OT also claims that the earth is flat and enclosed in a crystal dome. I bet you don't believe in those two claims, and yet, you're a chapel Mormon, and not an "internet Mormon"?

You know in the book the "Articles of faith" commissioned by the church appears the comment that the (to paraphrase) that "The Bible is foremost among our books". If I remember right.

[David T]

Then the whole Bible is for Children's stories, and there is no God.

This is the key reason why the concept of Biblical inerrancy is such a problem. If people believe that one aspect is incorrect, their worldview is shattered, and then they overcompensate by throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

The Bible is not a single work, by a single author, with a single genre, with a single meaning. Joseph claimed the Song of Solomon wasn't inspired. Prophets have said Eve coming from the rib was figurative. Brigham Young called the creation from the dust a baby story. Does these things break the complete Bible?

[Sevenbak]

Sevenbak:

Please tell us what essential doctrines of Christ, the Gospel and the Plan of Salvation we are denying and contending against that would make that Moroni statement applicable as a "harsh" chastisement to us who acknowledge Revelation and Scholarship?

You seem to be spinning what Moroni said. He's not saying just doctrine and plan of salvation stuff.

"And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh."

Other prophets warn about wresting the scriptures too.

[David T]

He hit the mark.

There is no middle ground. Either it happened or it didn't. Either the prophets from both sides of the world wrote about it, or they didn't.

Jared and his families experienced it first hand, and the Lord preserved the record for our day.

Either they lied or they didn't.

We don't have Jared's record. We have Joseph Smith's inspirationally guided version of Mormon's abridgment of a Nephite King's inspirationally guided translation of a centuries later traditional history.

I'm quite okay if unimportant details got changed along the way which gave the story more familiarity by contextual relevance to events in religious history.

[rodheadlee]

I am a simpleton.

Me too.

[semlogo]

He hit the mark.

There is no middle ground. Either it happened or it didn't. Either the prophets from both sides of the world wrote about it, or they didn't.

Jared and his families experienced it first hand, and the Lord preserved the record for our day.

Either they lied or they didn't.

False dichotomy.

[semlogo]

Are you my stalker now? Then the whole Bible is for Children's stories, and there is no God.

See what I said about being paranoid? I only post in topics that interest me. I could care less if you're in them or not.

Another false dichotomy. You need to brush up on your articles of faith.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

[semlogo]

He hit the mark.

There is no middle ground. Either it happened or it didn't. Either the prophets from both sides of the world wrote about it, or they didn't.

Jared and his families experienced it first hand, and the Lord preserved the record for our day.

Either they lied or they didn't.

Question: do you believe the world is flat and covered by a crystal dome on which the stars hang?

[semlogo]

You know in the book the "Articles of faith" commissioned by the church appears the comment that the (to paraphrase) that "The Bible is foremost among our books". If I remember right.

Sure. That doesn't mean that everything in it is to be taken literally. Do you believe that the earth is flat? And covered by a crystal dome upon which the stars are fixed?

[Sevenbak]

We don't have Jared's record. We have Joseph Smith's inspirationally guided version of Mormon's abridgment of a Nephite King's inspirationally guided translation of a centuries later traditional history.

I'm quite okay if unimportant details got changed along the way which gave the story more familiarity by contextual relevance to events in religious history.

Moroni wrote the Title Page of the BoM, which reiterates the reality of the Tower.

Moroni did have Ether's record, not a bad copy. He also had the interpreters. He was also the one who wrote the huge sealed portion from the same record, twice as large as the present BoM.

The only folks who have to deny he had those plates are the LGT folks, to fit into their modern mold.

[semlogo]

This is the key reason why the concept of Biblical inerrancy is such a problem. If people believe that one aspect is incorrect, their worldview is shattered, and then they overcompensate by throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

The Bible is not a single work, by a single author, with a single genre, with a single meaning. Joseph claimed the Song of Solomon wasn't inspired. Prophets have said Eve coming from the rib was figurative. Brigham Young called the creation from the dust a baby story. Does these things break the complete Bible?

Great points.

[semlogo]

Moroni wrote the Title Page of the BoM, which reiterates the reality of the Tower.

Moroni did have Ether's record, not a bad copy. He also had the interpreters. He was also the one who wrote the huge sealed portion from the same record, twice as large as the present BoM.

The only folks who have to deny he had those plates are the LGT folks, to fit into their modern mold.

I don't think anyone here is denying the existence of towers.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

See what I said about being paranoid? I only post in topics that interest me. I could care less if you're in them or not.

Another false dichotomy. You need to brush up on your articles of faith.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

The "Stalker" remark was a joke...who is paranoid?

[semlogo]

The "Stalker" remark was a joke...who is paranoid?

Be more funny.

[David T]

Moroni did have Ether's record, not a...copy.

My understanding was that he was working from King Mosiah's Translation.

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

Even Joseph Smith didn't believe all the stories that grew up around him.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Be more funny.

Or just be gone...I think I am wearing out my welcome.

[semlogo]

Or just be gone...I think I am wearing out my welcome.

Not at all. Why would you think that? As far as I'm concerned, you're as welcome as anyone else here.

[Sevenbak]

My understanding was that he was working from King Mosiah's Translation.

That's an good understanding, except when you take into consideration Moroni's own words on the matter:

Ether 1:2

And I take mine account from the twenty and four plates which were found by the people of Limhi, which is called the Book of Ether.