Michael R. Ash: Is the Tower of Babel historical or mythological?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Possibly. But the passive/aggressive-martyr behavior is something that has caused my family intense pain in the past (in topics completely unrelated), so perhaps I'm a little sensitive and tend to be prone to calling it out when I recognize it being utilized,

I am causing your "family" pain? Now I am passive/ aggressive

[David T]

Very well...but that would make the Book of Ether "questionable". Thus the entire BoM;

Because the application of a mythic structure and history was used in the Origins part of Mormon's abridgment of King Mosiah's inspirationally guided translation/transmission of a traditional family history? Really? That would break the entire Book of Mormon for you?

[David T]

I am causing your "family" pain? Now I am passive/ aggressive

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I don't see why you feel you should leave. In this case no one is offended by your interpretation of scriptures, it's just that you make it sound like people who don't interpret them identically to you are on the road to hell. It's condescending. I don't take it personally, but others do. Perhaps it would be better to focus on why you think we're getting it wrong rather than insinuating that you're the good Mormon and we're bad Mormons simply because we understand the scriptures differently than you do.

Anyway, on the internet, arguing and offending people is inevitable. I don't think you're over the top, for what it's worth. I say that as a person who occasionally goes over the top.

I am not the "good Mormon", I struggle with much

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

That's not what I said. I said the behavior in the past has. And my name isn't Will.

I was speaking of a "Will" who is a pundit and has wrote of this many times...especially to John Williams, who no longer believes...so labeling me as passive / aggressive will have him after me. But at least he will take part in my threads which he never does

[semlogo]

I am not the "good Mormon", I struggle with much

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

You presented yourself as the "real" TBM in a sea of semi-apostates. That's where people are getting offended.

I am a TBM

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Papa, see above. You are a great guy, but you need to look into the issue your thread is about, before going on crusade.

Then I will bow out of this thread and ask that it b closed. After one more post.

[semlogo]

I am a TBM

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

You've said the likes about 20 times now.

Then I will stop

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Red herring. Everyone sins.

I'm a TBM too. You need to realize that there is a diversity of opinion and interpretation of scripture in the gospel. You don't get to decide, based on your personal interpretations, who is TBM and who isn't.

Mod's please close this...it seems I am making an @ss of myself. But that ship sailed long ago didn't it?

[The_Monk]

The pride of the ignorant can be just as harmful to faith as the pride of the learned.

(Since we're talking in black/white polarities here...)

I'd wager Dan Peterson has some things to say about mythic structures in the OT and BoM. His Asherah articles get into it a little bit.

I don't consider myself a "liberal" by any definition.

These ideas are probably new, and it may take some getting used to. But one can view Babel as mythological, and the Book of Mormon as primarily historical, and hold a temple recommend. Really.

This might be useful. (Though I don't like the use of "liberal." I prefer "non-traditional")

http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/07/19/lowered-expectations/

[sansfoy]

Mod's please close this...it seems I am making an @ss of myself. But that ship sailed long ago didn't it?

If you want the thread to die, just walk away and don't check in to see what's happening. It will be dead for you.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

If you want the thread to die, just walk away and don't check in to see what's happening. It will be dead for you.

Good adice again...thanks, Unless Mike Ash answerers.

[Jason]

These ideas are probably new, and it may take some getting used to. But one can view Babel as mythological, and the Book of Mormon as primarily historical, and hold a temple recommend. Really.

On the other hand, the fact that you can hold those beliefs and a temple recommend at the same time doesn't mean those beliefs are correct, merely that they are not as important to our salvation as some other beliefs.

[David T]

Good adice again...thanks, Unless Mike Ash answerers.

.. Mike Ash did respond.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

.. Mike Ash did respond.

To my follow-up response to that rely

[David T]

To my follow-up response to that rely

[semlogo]

I might also point out to Papa that even modern history is by no means free from error. If you're looking for a 100% accurate retelling of events from ANY source, you will be disappointed .

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Oh, I see. Where you questioned his loyalty and suggested he 'thought he was wise' and was doing this for the praise of men. Gotcha.

I guess next I will be called an apostate. Heaven forbid I should have a question and have an opinion. How dare me (or I) question a scholar. What was I thinking? Broke my rule again.

[David T]

I guess next I will be called an apostate. Heaven forbid I should have a question and have an opinion. How dare me (or I) question a scholar. What was I thinking? Broke my rule again.

nonsense. I don't think a single person has intimated that to you, Papa, even though you have intimated that others beliefs deny the faith and are apostate.

There's also difference between questioning a scholar as to his conclusions, and jumping straight to questioning a Church members as to his worthiness, faith, and loyalty. You did the latter, not the former.

[mfbukowski]

On a similar note, while The Chopping Down The Cherry Tree Story about George Washington's childhood honesty is a myth, it is meant to teach a shorthand true principle about George Washington to one not familiar with the details of his political and military dealings. What it does teach about this real historical figure is the truth that he was an honest and honorable man.

And "I know the story is true".

That is, the STORY of him being honest and honorable is true.

There are many ways stories can be "true"- sometimes literally, sometimes not.

[mfbukowski]

My vote myth based on history.

Yep

"His- story".

"The man told his- story to the jury, and as triers of facts, the jury decided his story was true"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trier_of_fact

In effect, the jury defined the statement to be a "fact", after weighing the evidence. No one saw what "actually happened" and that was irrelevant. The story has been determined to be "true".

This is the way that much of history is subject to the definition of "truth". It is all up to the "jury"

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

nonsense. I don't think a single person has intimated that to you, Papa, even though you have intimated that others beliefs deny the faith and are apostate.

There's also difference between questioning a scholar as to his conclusions, and jumping straight to questioning a Church members as to his worthiness, faith, and loyalty. You did the latter, not the former.

Oh and how dare a "Mormon" be concerned" about the "Mormon Church". Also I guess you missed the part about me praising his two books. And how dare I support the 12 and the 1st Presidency as they share my views and are called of God and probably know him "face to face". Oh and the "we" not "he" that I made the comment about. Also I do not believe he holds a PhD. Oh the audacity of an uneducated fool as myself. There I go breaking the rule again. BTW...I have never suggested anyone isn an apostate. Anymore falsehoods you want to make concerning me?

[David T]

Papa, without knowing you, I still believe you're a wonderful person who has done much good in this world, along with a strong testimony of the Gospel, who is trying very hard to seek truth and understand the Lord's will. I apologize if I have hurt your feelings, or have led you to feel otherwise.

I do hope you can believe the same of others who disagree with your understanding on matters of scriptural interpretation.