Michael R. Ash: Is the Tower of Babel historical or mythological?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

So which is it

[ERayR]

So which is it

[David T]

I voted mythological...in the sense that Ash pointed out that it's used - the results of a shadowy memory of an historical event overlayed with years of cultural interpretation. I'm personally of the opinion that explicit associations of Ether's Tower with the Genesis Tower of Babel story in the highly abridged version of Jaredite tradition we have of the story probably are made stronger by Nephite (and later) redactors of the text, influenced by their version of the Pentateuch, and reinforced by Joseph's KJV understanding.

[Jason]

It's both. There was an actual historical incident, and lots and lots of mythology has grown up around it.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

It's both. There was an actual historical incident, and lots and lots of mythology has grown up around it.

Yes the Book of Ether

[Kenngo1969]

Is the Tower of Babel historical or mythological? My answer is ... wait for it! ... drum-roll, please! ... yes!

(You knew that one was coming, didn't you??? )

[semlogo]

I voted mythological...in the sense that Ash pointed out that it's used - the results of a shadowy memory of an historical event overlayed with years of cultural interpretation. I'm personally of the opinion that explicit associations of Ether's Tower with the Genesis Tower of Babel story in the highly abridged version of Jaredite tradition we have of the story probably are made stronger by Nephite (and later) redactors of the text, influenced by their version of the Pentateuch, and reinforced by Joseph's KJV understanding.

Agreed.

We know that languages change and evolve organically - you don't need a tower and a curse for that to happen. However, it may have been based on some real event, and exaggerated over time.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Agreed.

We know that languages change and evolve organically - you don't need a tower and a curse for that to happen. However, it may have been based on some real event, and exaggerated over time.

Would this not make the Book of Ether false and as such the Book of Mormon in total, and our faith invalid?

[David T]

Would this not make the Book of Ether false and as such the Book of Mormon in total, and our faith invalid?

No, as I expressed above.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

No, as I expressed above.

It is true or it is not.

[David T]

It is true or it is not.

I think that's a major oversimplification when it comes to interpreting 'history' as recounted in ancient scriptural texts. Even those whose final versions are transmitted through inspiration.

[ERayR]

It is true or it is not.

So it is but I think the answer to the tower of Babel account and some other accounts is probably something nobody has publicly espoused as of yet. Don't get in a hurry to tuck in the edges. Leave some hanging out to catch on things and remind us that everything does not always wrap up into neat packages and we may need to keep looking for the answers. In other words for me the myth answers just don't quite cut it.

[semlogo]

Would this not make the Book of Ether false and as such the Book of Mormon in total, and our faith invalid?

"If there are mistakes, they are the mistakes of men."

[thesometimesaint]

Pa Pa:

It is both. Was there a high tower built sometime around the time of the Jaredites. I believe so. Are all the stories that grew up around the building of the tower historically accurate? I don't believe so. It is about like asking if there was a real Job. Yes I believe so. Are all the stories that have grown up around him historically accurate? I don't believe so.

[Jason]

Just because we know that languages can and do change "naturally" over time, does this mean that the reported confounding of speech at the Tower of Babel could not have occured?

[thesometimesaint]

Jason:

The whole story can be dismissed as a series of supernatural miracles. There is no way to contradict such an argument. However, one must wonder about a God who reportedly does one thing and then arranges every bit of evidence to make it look like something else happened. It's entirely possible that confounding of languages occurred 4000 years ago or even last Thursday, and that God subsequently erased all the evidence, including our memories of it. But even if such stories are true, what's the point?

Shamelessly adapted from http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

[David T]

Just because we know that languages can and do change "naturally" over time, does this mean that the reported confounding of speech at the Tower of Babel could not have occured?

Frankly, that account seems more in place in the just-so-stories section of Genesis along with a woman sprouting from a man's rib, and the enemies of the Israelites all sprouting from incestuous ancestors, and the three key classes of peoples coming from the three sons of Noah. The book of the 'Origin of All Things' has many purposes, but I'm not sure teaching us a literal history is one of them. Especially when the genre of literature and culture surrounding the writing of Genesis is taken into consideration.

[semlogo]

Just because we know that languages can and do change "naturally" over time, does this mean that the reported confounding of speech at the Tower of Babel could not have occured?

1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar. 4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children built. 6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do; and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

^^

Whatever happened, it didn't happen like this. Could God have confounded the languages of a small group of people? Sure. But that wouldn't have been the origin of languages. This version reads like a Rudyard Kipling Just So story.

The same goes for the story of the flood. Some much toned down version would be possible, but the Biblical version never happened.

[semlogo]

Frankly, that account seems more in place in the just-so-stories section of Genesis along with a woman sprouting from a man's rib, and the enemies of the Israelites all sprouting from incestuous ancestors, and the three key classes of peoples coming from the three sons of Noah. The book of the 'Origin of All Things' has many purposes, but I'm not sure teaching us a literal history is one of them. Especially when the genre of literature and culture surrounding the writing of Genesis is taken into consideration.

I swear I didn't read this before making the post below it!

[Jason]

Frankly, that account seems more in place in the just-so-stories section of Genesis along with a woman sprouting from a man's rib, and the enemies of the Israelites all sprouting from incestuous ancestors, and the three key classes of peoples coming from the three sons of Noah. The book of the 'Origin of All Things' has many purposes, but I'm not sure teaching us a literal history is one of them. Especially when the genre of literature and culture surrounding the writing of Genesis is taken into consideration.

"Which Jared came forth with his brother and their families, with some others and their families, from the great tower, at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, and swore in his wrath that they should be scattered upon all the face of the earth; and according to the word of the Lord the people were scattered.

And the brother of Jared being a large and mighty man, and a man highly favored of the Lord, Jared, his brother, said unto him: Cry unto the Lord, that he will not confound us that we may not understand our words.

And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord, and the Lord had compassion upon Jared; therefore he did not confound the language of Jared; and Jared and his brother were not confounded.

Then Jared said unto his brother: Cry again unto the Lord, and it may be that he will turn away his anger from them who are our friends, that he confound not their language.

And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord, and the Lord had compassion upon their friends and their families also, that they were not confounded."

So I guess Jared and Mahonri didn't really have to worry about this whole confounding business?

I mean, even without their prayers there was really no chance that they wouldn't understand each other and wouldn't understand their friends, right?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I think that's a major oversimplification when it comes to interpreting 'history' as recounted in ancient scriptural texts. Even those whose final versions are transmitted through inspiration.

I am a simpleton.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

"If there are mistakes, they are the mistakes of men."

Clever

[cinepro]

It is about like asking if there was a real Job. Yes I believe so. Are all the stories that have grown up around him historically accurate? I don't believe so.

I know people who feel the same way about Joseph Smith. And Jesus.

[MistahStokes]

I voted Mythological.

[ttribe]

I know people who feel the same way about Joseph Smith. And Jesus.

Such is the fog of history. Generally, for the figures we care about, the eyewitnesses are dead.