Michael R. Ash: Is the Tower of Babel historical or mythological?

[bu11fr0g]

It is dangerous to base one's beliefs on an associate professor at BYU's untempered writing in the Ensign over ten years ago.

which is frankly only somewhat better than someone's faith being based on something that their seminary teacher told them.

..... different if they felt true inspiration from God for themselves.

[mapman]

Myth has to do with function. The birth, atonement, death and resurrection of Christ is a myth- but one that I believe truly did happen.

Exactly. Myth does not equal lie.

[Jason]

Exactly. Myth does not equal lie.

But that's not what most people understand when they hear someone say "it's just a myth".

[semlogo]

Johnny Appleseed is somewhat of a mythical figure, but he was also a real person and he did go around planting apple trees.

[David T]

Johnny Appleseed is somewhat of a mythical figure, but he was also a real person and he did go around planting apple trees.

On a similar note, while The Chopping Down The Cherry Tree Story about George Washington's childhood honesty is a myth, it is meant to teach a shorthand true principle about George Washington to one not familiar with the details of his political and military dealings. What it does teach about this real historical figure is the truth that he was an honest and honorable man.

[cinepro]

It is dangerous to base one's beliefs on an associate professor at BYU's untempered writing in the Ensign over ten years ago.

Well, he's not an associate professor anymore.

I wonder if he still believes what he wrote in that Ensign article, or if he had to adopt a less literal view of these things before he could make the transition to full professorhood...?

The irony is that we usually get to discount the fallible statements of the Prophets and Apostles based on their unfamiliarity with the mythical nature of some of the scriptural stories. "If only they knew more about Hebrew and the story-telling habits of the ancients, they would see things more clearly and less literally."

But here we have a stone-cold expert in Hebrew and the Old Testament who loudly and boldly (and somewhat embarrassingly) declares that "For some in the modern world, the historicity of the tower of Babel story, as with the Flood, is often discounted. One modern school of thought considers the account to be nothing more than an

[Ron Beron]

So which is it

[J Green]

Nack and the Monk have made cogent arguments on this. Ash's article is short but accurate.

The Babel story focuses on the tower and giving the people a name, and I've always been intrigued by the tower-and-a-name theme that reappears in other contexts. Jacob ascends a tower staircase to meet God at the "gate of heaven" (compare to Babel's "Gate of God") in renewing the name/seed covenant given to his father and grandfather. (Note how the tower/name episode of Babel in Gen 11 is immediately followed by the name/seed covenant with Abraham in Gen 12.) The tower is the temple and the name is the covenant for redemption through Yahweh associated with the Day of Atonement kingship ritual (the fall ingathering festival) at the temple. Nimrod appears to be conducting this temple ceremony inappropriately to proclaim himself God. (Early interpretations of Isaiah 14 tie this rebellion to Nimrod.)

King Benjamin builds a tower at the temple during this same fall festival to proclaim his son a king and give his people a name that consists of redemption through Yahweh. It is another tower/name/kingship/redemption story, and I suspect that he is using the occasion of the fall festival to address the themes of rebellion and redemption with Jaredite remnants who retained this story in their culture. He makes very specific observations about his own status as king (just a man) that would appear to specifically contradict Nimrod's elevation of himself as king and god. Since Jaredite remnants maintained secret oaths (related to the theme of a name) to get gain and influence, I suspect that Benjamin has seen these elements already at work in his kingdom. He preaches humility and giving of ones subsistence to the needy as opposed to Nimrod's power and gain. I think there is a direct link.

I fleshed out these ideas more here.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

It won't be me. If the BoM people were real ancient people they would have had myths. Histories, espeically ancient-histories, can be be based on actual people and events and still contain mythological elements and legends. They are not mutually exclusive. As I state in my MT article, I believe in actual Nephites/Lamanites/Jaredites.

Well I read your two books and loved them

[David T]

Well I read your two books and loved them

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Why do you feel that the conclusions we've reached with our own diligent and prayerful studies somehow has anything to do with seeking the praise of men?

History

[David T]

History

Could you elaborate? Do you realize that it is extremely offensive, and makes you appear highly self-righteous and arrogany, to condemn our own different-than-your-own conclusions by making the proclamation that we must only believe them because we desire to get praise form the world?

Seriously? You don't think it's possible that the studies we've done are honest, diligent desires to better understand God and our relationship with him, and to this world in which we now live?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Could you elaborate? Do you realize that it is extremely offensive, and makes you appear highly self-righteous and arrogany, to condemn our own different-than-your-own conclusions by making the proclamation that we must only believe them because we desire to get praise form the world?

Seriously? You don't think it's possible that the studies we've done are honest, diligent desires to better understand God and our relationship with him, and to this world in which we now live?

The history of all mankind

[David T]

Yet...you are passing a sweeping judgment on individuals here. You are professing that you believe I hold a certain belief and have conclusions different than yours solely for reasons of vanity, and implying that I do so because I lack faith, and value the praise of men over the truth of God. In contrast with your beliefs, which are expressed as making a stand for truth, and as a true symbol of your humility and great faith, even against the ridicule of the world!

You have presented yourself as a martyr, and presented us as Nehor.

I have no problem with your believing as you do. None at all, actually. I'd say a majority of amazing servants of the Lord share your understanding. And that's fine. Your beliefs on these matters are not offensive at all.

Its your attacks and judgments on those who have a different understanding that I am strongly against.

As someone whose questioning of easy answers and attendant prayerful study led to my joining the Church in the first place, and as one who's patriarchal blessing calls me out as a seeker of truth, and encourages and invites me to continue in my scholastic studies as a way I will learn a great deal more about the Church, and also invites me to write and help explain the things I learn for the benefit of others ---- I find your insinuations that I am a faithless anti-Christ opposing the clear and simple revealed word of God more than a little arrogant and self-righteous. And yes - offensive.

That's what history shows me.

But if you meant something different, by all means, I would welcome a clarification.

[sansfoy]

I find your insinuations that I am a faithless anti-Christ opposing the clear and simple revealed word of God more than a little arrogant and self-righteous.

Don't you think you're overreacting?

[David T]

Don't you think you're overreacting?

Possibly. But the passive/aggressive-martyr behavior is something that has caused my family intense pain in the past (in topics completely unrelated), so perhaps I'm a little sensitive and tend to be prone to calling it out when I recognize it being utilized,

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Yet...you are passing a sweeping judgment on individuals here. You are professing that you believe I hold a certain belief and have conclusions different than yours solely for reasons of vanity, and implying that I do so because I lack faith, and value the praise of men over the truth of God. In contrast with your beliefs, which are expressed as making a stand for truth, and as a true symbol of your humility and great faith, even against the ridicule of the world!

You have presented yourself as a martyr, and presented us as Nehor.

I have no problem with your believing as you do. None at all, actually. I'd say a majority of amazing servants of the Lord share your understanding. And that's fine. Your beliefs on these matters are not offensive at all.

Its your attacks and judgments on those who have a different understanding that I am strongly against.

As someone who's patriarchal blessing calls me out as a seeker of truth, and encourages and invites me to continue in my scholastic studies as a way I will learn a great deal more about the Church, and also invites me to write and help explain the things I learn for the benefit of others ---- I find your insinuations that I am a faithless anti-Christ opposing the clear and simple revealed word of God more than a little arrogant and self-righteous. And yes - offensive.

That's what history shows me.

But if you meant something different, by all means, I would welcome a clarification.

I just don't want us to outsmart ourselves

[David T]

I'm sorry, but I don't equate the accounts of Babel and a global flood in Genesis with the Gospel/ Atonement of Christ and the restoration of priesthood authority through Joseph Smith. I am a strong defender of the Faith in the latter two. I don't see any religious obligation to defend faith in the former two.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I'm sorry, but I don't equate the accounts of Babel and a global flood in Genesis with the Atonement of Christ and the restoration of priesthood authority through Joseph Smith. I am a strong defender of the Faith in the latter two. I don't see any religious obligation to defend faith in the former two.

Very well...but that would make the Book of Ether "questionable". Thus the entire BoM; in that case why be a Mormon? As you can see I am a very "black and white' thinker. Maybe there is no room for me anywhere?

Seems the only thing left for me who believes if in error is atheisism. If these are myth

[sansfoy]

It is becoming clearer that I don't belong here

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

It would be a pretty boring place if everyone just nodded and agreed. Diversity of opinion is a good thing.

Good point...but of all faiths, should we not come together in the "unity of the faith"? Is that not why we have Apostles and Prophets (in fact that is the very reason we have them). They believe and bear witness to these events as noted in this thread.

[volgadon]

I just don't want us to outsmart ourselves

[volgadon]

Very well...but that would make the Book of Ether "questionable". Thus the entire BoM; in that case why be a Mormon? As you can see I am a very "black and white' thinker. Maybe there is no room for me anywhere?

Seems the only thing left for me who believes if in error is atheisism. If these are myth

[Senator]

Maybe there is no room for me anywhere?

You've said the likes about 20 times now.

[semlogo]

I just don't want us to outsmart ourselves