1838 executive order to exterminate Mormons!

[ERayR]

History is nearly always written by the winners.

You see that is a big problem here because the Mormons are still around and able to refute the winners. Every time they get a good story going some mormon comes up with the real story.

[Doctor Steuss]

Alexander Baugh, a Mormon historian who has studied the Missouri period extensively, had this to say about Governor Boggs:

<snip quote>

Hi Nevo,

Do you happen to have a citation handy for this quote (i.e. was it in an article, book, speech, private correspondence, etc.)?

As always, thank you,

Stu

[thesometimesaint]

USU78:

Divisions within the Russian Revolution not withstanding, I believe we can all think of the rare instances when the losers left some trace of their history. Carthage was destroyed by the Romans, then the Muslims, but the ruins are still there.

[wenglund]

History is nearly always written by the winners.

Were there really any winners in relation to the extermination order?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Storm Rider]

"Objective" history is a fantasy.

I have never said that an objective historian exists; all history has some degree of influence from the historian writing. However, it is the Reconstructionist that goes back and rewrites and reframes history that I reject. They create narration, psycho-babble, and attempt to explain what an individual was thinking. It makes my skin crawl when I read that drivel.

[Ceeboo]

Were there really any winners in relation to the extermination order?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Peace,

Ceeboo

[ERayR]

I have never said that an objective historian exists; all history has some degree of influence from the historian writing. However, it is the Reconstructionist that goes back and rewrites and reframes history that I reject. They create narration, psycho-babble, and attempt to explain what an individual was thinking. It makes my skin crawl when I read that drivel.

I agree there is all too much of this. If they are taking from journal, etc. and feelings have been recorded ok but if they are imagining and embelishing I am with you.

[LeSellers]

Were there really any winners in relation to the extermination order?

Yes, at least in terms of the temporal world.

The Saints left millions of dollars worth of stock, improved lands, equipment, etc. The "old Settlers" got to keep slavery (for another 20 years or so). They got braggin' rights on having Joseph Smith in jail.

Oh, yes, there were "winners". Until the judgment of God, when they will have to answer for their works.

Lehi

[mfbukowski]

Which was actually true until the Mensheviki named themselves Bolsheviki.

I usta be a Trot but I got better.

I think this comment belongs over there on the Law of Consecration thread. I like that Bolshevoy fella, but he's several hundred yards to my left nowadays.

But after all, I'm always Right.

[Stargazer]

There, that is my contribution to the subject.

Why do they say "Exterminate!" just before shooting? Makes no sense, they already know what they're going to do, and it just warns the target.

Daleks are over-rated.

[frankenstein]

How dare you?

After Haun's Mill, you dare say that? I have found in life that we reap what we sow.

didn't joseph smith something along the lines that the deaths at haun's mill were the fault of the dead? as he had warned them if not instructed them to leave? I did not learn this tidbit till my mission at 22yrs of age, i learned this while listening to a set of Truman G. Madsen discs which focused on Joseph Smith. What happened at haun's mill is not excusable, but personal responsibility for both sides should be taken into account.

[ttribe]

didn't joseph smith something along the lines that the deaths at haun's mill were the fault of the dead? as he had warned them if not instructed them to leave? I did not learn this tidbit till my mission at 22yrs of age, i learned this while listening to a set of Truman G. Madsen discs which focused on Joseph Smith. What happened at haun's mill is not excusable, but personal responsibility for both sides should be taken into account.

Reposting - Link. Go down to the section entitled "Aftermath."

[mfbukowski]

didn't joseph smith something along the lines that the deaths at haun's mill were the fault of the dead? as he had warned them if not instructed them to leave? I did not learn this tidbit till my mission at 22yrs of age, i learned this while listening to a set of Truman G. Madsen discs which focused on Joseph Smith. What happened at haun's mill is not excusable, but personal responsibility for both sides should be taken into account.

I was a bit "exercised" when I made that post. He clearly was being an insensitive bozo when he wrote that. How's that for an ad hominem?

[Stargazer]

didn't joseph smith something along the lines that the deaths at haun's mill were the fault of the dead? as he had warned them if not instructed them to leave? I did not learn this tidbit till my mission at 22yrs of age, i learned this while listening to a set of Truman G. Madsen discs which focused on Joseph Smith. What happened at haun's mill is not excusable, but personal responsibility for both sides should be taken into account.

Wait a minute. I know you don't mean it like it just sounded.

In 1980 Mt. St. Helens blew skyhigh. Harry Truman (not the late president) owned a lodge at the edge of Spirit Lake, next to the volcano. He refused to leave, despite warnings that the mountain looked like it was about to blow. The mountain blew, and Harry is still there, buried with his lodge about 150 feet below the current ground level at that point. Harry's death IS his own fault.

But even if Joseph had warned them to leave Haun's Mill, their deaths were not their own fault, because their deaths were caused by thinking, breathing human beings who should have known that what they were doing was wrong. The residents of Haun's Mill might be characterized as having unwisely remained. But the fault was not theirs.

Edited to add: and after following mfbukowski's link, I see that they didn't actually get that word.

[thesometimesaint]

wengland:

Nothing permanent. But the Missourians did get rid of their Mormon problem for a while.

[Stargazer]

wengland:

Nothing permanent. But the Missourians did get rid of their Mormon problem for a while.

Well, that's gotta count for sumthin'

[cinepro]

Edited to add: and after following mfbukowski's link, I see that they didn't actually get that word.

Looks like someone else didn't get the word that they didn't get the word...

[Nevo]

Hi Nevo,

Do you happen to have a citation handy for this quote (i.e. was it in an article, book, speech, private correspondence, etc.)?

As always, thank you,

Stu

Hi Stu,

Professor Baugh made these comments in the documentary Joseph: Exploring the Life and Ministry of the Prophet, which aired on BYU-TV in 2005. The transcription was made by me. Predictably, Baugh's sympathetic assessment of Boggs didn't make it into the companion book, but his (revisionist?) take on the extermination order remains:

Contrary to the belief of many Latter-day Saints and even some Mormon historians, the governor's Extermination Order was not meant to give authorization to the state militia or its citizens to kill or eradicate the Latter-day Saint population. Boggs certainly did not like the Mormons, but in a report to the Missouri House of Representatives, he stated that the order and call-up of troops was issued "to prevent the effusion of blood." Significantly, the first definition of the word exterminate as defined in Webster's 1828 dictionary reads, "to drive from within the limits or borders." Given this definition, the order should probably be interpreted to read that "the Mormons must be exterminated or [in other words] driven from the State . . . for the public peace." Thus, Governor Boggs was calling for the removal of the Mormons by the militia, not their death.

[Pahoran]

Hi Stu,

Professor Baugh made these comments in the documentary Joseph: Exploring the Life and Ministry of the Prophet, which aired on BYU-TV in 2005. The transcription was made by me. Predictably, Baugh's sympathetic assessment of Boggs didn't make it into the companion book, but his (revisionist?) take on the extermination order remains:

I agree that it's a revisionist take. When we look at the actual text of the order, it includes specific instructions to particular militia units to head north in order to cut off the Mormons' retreat. Why cut off their retreat? When my next door neighbour's cat gets into our house, and I want to chase her out, the first thing I do is make sure there is an open line of retreat.

The fact is that Boggs didn't just want to drive us out of the state. He also wanted to capture -- and execute -- the leaders of the Church.

When we take the entire set of actions taken by the Missourians, under the auspices of the extermination order, as a whole, we find two apparently discrete objectives in play: the annihilation of the leaders of the Church, and the scattering of the members. And upon reflection, we realise that these are not discrete objectives at all; a people whose leaders are killed and whose population is dispersed is effectively destroyed.

And that's what the "Christian" hero Boggs had in mind for the Saints, when he authorised his pogrom. "Extermination" wasn't merely expulsion; it was destruction.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Nevo]

The fact is that Boggs didn't just want to drive us out of the state. He also wanted to capture -- and execute -- the leaders of the Church.

This would be a damning indictment of Boggs if it were true. However, as Professor Baugh points out:

"Sufficient historical evidence exists to show that Governor Boggs and Austin A. King (the circuit court judge who conducted the preliminary court hearing against Mormon leaders taken into custody after the surrender at Far West) never intended to prosecute Joseph Smith and the other Mormon prisoners. At the completion of the Richmond hearing in late November, as Joseph Smith and his companions were being taken to Liberty Jail, one of the men in charge of the prisoners informed them that "the Judge declared his intention to keep us in jail until all the 'Mormons' were driven out of state. He also said that the Judge had further declared that if he let us out before the 'Mormons' had left the state, . . . there would be another . . . fuss kicked up." Some of the details of how this happened were given in the following statement by Hyrum Smith:

The jailer [at Liberty Jail], Samuel Tillery, Esq., told us . . . that the whole plan was concocted by the governor down to the lowest judge in that upper country. . . . He also told us that the governor was now ashamed of the whole transaction and would be glad to set us at liberty if he dared do it. "But," said he, "you need not be concerned, for the governor has laid a plan for your release." He also said that Squire Birch . . . was appointed to be circuit judge on the circuit passing through Daviess county, and that he (Birch) was instructed to fix the papers, so that we would be sure to be clear from any incumbrance in a very short time.

In short, Boggs and the lower court judges instigated a plan whereby once the main body of Mormons complied with the order to leave the state, the leaders would be released. That is indeed what took place. On 16 April 1839, following the Gallatin hearing, while en route with the prisoners to Columbia, Boone County, Sheriff William Morgan, the officer in charge of the transport, allowed the Mormon prisoners to escape. Morgan told the men that Judge Birch had instructed him to let them go. Six days later, the escapees crossed the Mississippi River, where they joined the main body of Saints who had assembled in Quincy.

(Baugh, "The Mormons Must Be Treated as Enemies," GospeLink.com; emphasis added)

Samuel Lucas tried to have Joseph Smith and other leaders summarily executed, which might have happened had it not been for Alexander Doniphan's timely intervention, but he was acting outside orders. Lucas, in fact, wasn't even supposed to be in Far West. Boggs remarked in a letter to General Clark dated 6 November 1838 that he "regret[ted] very much to hear that Gen. Lucas has been guilty of disobedience of orders....Gen. Lucas was not ordered out at all...." (quoted in Baugh, "A Call to Arms: The 1838 Mormon Defense of Northern Missouri," [Ph.D diss., Brigham Young University, 1996], 308).

[Stargazer]

Well, good. That should take care of that, now, shouldn't it? Nevo has provided us with the moderate word, and I'm convinced. Anyone else want to join me? Let's let this thread go.

[USU78]

This would be a damning indictment of Boggs if it were true. However, as Professor Baugh points out:

Baugh: "In short, Boggs and the lower court judges instigated a plan whereby once the main body of Mormons complied with the order to leave the state, the leaders would be released. That is indeed what took place. On 16 April 1839, following the Gallatin hearing, while en route with the prisoners to Columbia, Boone County, Sheriff William Morgan, the officer in charge of the transport, allowed the Mormon prisoners to escape. Morgan told the men that Judge Birch had instructed him to let them go.

Samuel Lucas tried to have Joseph Smith and other leaders summarily executed, which might have happened had it not been for Alexander Doniphan's timely intervention, but he was acting outside orders. Lucas, in fact, wasn't even supposed to be in Far West. Boggs remarked in a letter to General Clark dated 6 November 1838 that he "regret[ted] very much to hear that Gen. Lucas has been guilty of disobedience of orders....Gen. Lucas was not ordered out at all...." (quoted in Baugh, "A Call to Arms: The 1838 Mormon Defense of Northern Missouri," [Ph.D diss., Brigham Young University, 1996], 308).

There is a monstrous big disconnect between Doniphan disobeying illegal orders wherupon Boggs went to Plan "B," which was to imprison JSJr and the rest until they could have a non-military tribunal hear the charges and Boggs being a good Christian guy. Only upon reading the political winds [The Eastern Press was having a field day with Missouri and Boggs especially over the extermination order, the trumped-up charges, and the locked-up Mormon leadership], and, perhaps finally getting competent legal advice that the charges would never stick, did Boggs then go to Plan "C," letting leadership go to join the troops in the Illinois swamp. In order to do so, however, there had to be a complete breakdown of State governance, with the governor suborning gross malfeasance of judicial officers, including a sitting county judge. This is as bad as it gets, folks, and as unAmerican, and as unChristian a series of events that no amount of quibbling over whether "or driven from the State" describes or is an alternative to "exterminate" can cover.

Boggs was a monster, and Missouri was a cesspool of corruption and violence.

[Nevo]

Boggs was a monster, and Missouri was a cesspool of corruption and violence.

Well, at least Boggs had the good grace to be shot repeatedly in the head for his malfeasance so it's all good.

[mfbukowski]

Edited to add: and after following mfbukowski's link, I see that they didn't actually get that word.

I am not sure what link you meant to link to- but that one goes to my profile. Is that what you meant to do? I am not getting it either way.

[USU78]

Well, at least Boggs had the good grace to be shot repeatedly in the head for his malfeasance so it's all good.

.