1838 executive order to exterminate Mormons!

[frankenstein]

Reposting - Link. Go down to the section entitled "Aftermath."

i can only answer based on memory. so thanks for the links

the quote ttribe recommends can be found here on lds.org

though there is this

Joseph Smith told all the Saints to move into Far West or Adam-ondi-Ahman for protection, but Jacob Haun did not want to leave his property. He ignored what the Prophet said and instructed the other families to stay in the town. They set up guards to protect the mill and the town.

and

Discussion and Application Questions

Study the following questions and the scripture references as you prepare your lesson. Use the questions you feel will best help the children understand the scriptures and apply the principles in their lives. Reading and discussing the scriptures with the children in class will help them gain personal insights.

• [*] <a name="39">[*]

[OtterPop]

The extermination order was inexcusable. But it's also worth noting that the Missouri legislature issued an apology for it in March 2004.

(I've looked at the entire thread, but skimmed some of it, so I'm not sure whether anyone has already mentioned this.)

[ERayR]

The extermination order was inexcusable. But it's also worth noting that the Missouri legislature issued an apology for it in March 2004.

(I've looked at the entire thread, but skimmed some of it, so I'm not sure whether anyone has already mentioned this.)

To me these apologies 150 years later by someone eho had nothing to do with the events in question are a a pile of feel good crap. Those issuing the apology have nothing to apologize for and those receiving the apology have had nothing happen to them which requires apologies.

Maybe this is just me.

[ERayR]

Paint Boggs with all the revisionist feel good veneer you want he was still the murderer of literally hundreds of men, womwn and children that he caused to be turned out into the winter cold and storms to starve and freeze to death. Spray all the glitter you want on the picture but it is still ugly. Paint it with whatever brush you want he was still a bigoted despot who killed the innocents. I think the Savior when he said that anybody who harmed one of these little ones it would be better for him if he had had a millstone hanged around his neck and dropped into the depths of the sea.

[dianaiad]

Translation: I have no rational basis to criticize what Jaybear actually said.

I'm not certain, but I believe that he...just did.

It seems pretty obvious to me that you believe they all deserved what they got. I'll have to remember that whenever I think of, well...Sardius Smith and Thomas McBride in terms of your opinion.

[dianaiad]

Are you claiming that the US military gives it's soldiers license to rape?

The US military does not give its soldiers instructions to eliminate the entire population of a particular ethnic or religious group, Narrator. the Rules of Engagement are pretty clear...and fall considerably short of 'extermination.'

You pride yourself on logic...what is the name of the fallacy you just committed?

[Nevo]

Paint Boggs with all the revisionist feel good veneer you want he was still the murderer of literally hundreds of men, womwn and children that he caused to be turned out into the winter cold and storms to starve and freeze to death.

That's completely false.

[Nevo]

Joseph Smith told all the Saints to move into Far West or Adam-ondi-Ahman for protection, but Jacob Haun did not want to leave his property. He ignored what the Prophet said and instructed the other families to stay in the town. They set up guards to protect the mill and the town.

Jacob Hawn was not a Mormon so he can hardly be blamed for not heeding the Prophet's call to flee to Far West.

[Flyonthewall]

I am not a student of history, so this is a sincere question...Is/was there a precedent in giving an "extermination" order?

Was there one given when the 13 colonies declared war with Britain? Was there one issued during the war of 1812?

Even if the order was simply looking for expulsion of the Mormons, it also gave the green light to kill them if they did not leave. There was no due process clause, only "leave or die".

[ERayR]

That's completely false.

OK what did the do go for a winter camping trip without food and supplies. Boy Scout Klondike Derby perhaps? They were forced to flee accross the river with nothing more than what they could grab and run. All else was either stolen or confiscated.

You obviously know very little about the suffering and death caused by the extermination order.

[Nevo]

I am not a student of history, so this is a sincere question...Is/was there a precedent in giving an "extermination" order?

Was there one given when the 13 colonies declared war with Britain? Was there one issued during the war of 1812?

Even if the order was simply looking for expulsion of the Mormons, it also gave the green light to kill them if they did not leave. There was no due process clause, only "leave or die".

The 1830 Indian Removal Act, signed by Andrew Jackson, was such a removal order. But there was a long-standing American tradition of communities expelling unwanted elements from their midst. New England towns had a practice of "warning out" indigent strangers and other undesirables. During the American Revolution "Tories" were tarred and feathered and ridden out on rails. And, yes, some were killed.

Following Sidney Rigdon's "Salt Sermon" on 17 Jun 1838, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, John Whitmer, William W. Phelps, and Lyman Johnson were given an ultimatum to leave Caldwell County within three days or be expelled by force: "You shall have three days after you receive this communication to you, including twenty-four hours in each day, for you to depart with your families peaceably; which you may do undisturbed by any person; but in that time, if you do not depart, we will use the means in our power to cause you to depart; for go you shall..." Some versions of the ultimatum include the words "or a more fatal calamity shall befall you." Eighty-three Mormons, including Church leaders, signed the letter. With the exception of Phelps (who pleaded with the First Presidency to be allowed to stay) they all left Far West in short order, fearing for their lives. Joseph Smith evidently approved of the forced expulsion. Later he would say that any Saint in Caldwell County who "did not take arms in defence of the Mormons as Davi[es]s should be considered as tories, and should take their exit from the county" (quoted in Joseph Smith Papers, Journals, vol. 1, 238n52). So even Mormons weren't above driving people from their homes if they considered them a nuisance.

[Nevo]

You obviously know very little about the suffering and death caused by the extermination order.

I know that it is not true that hundreds of men, women, and children froze and starved to death in the exodus from Missouri. There was enormous suffering, but almost everyone survived the ordeal. William G. Hartley's JMH article, "'Almost Too Intolerable a Burthen': The Winter Exodus from Missouri, 1838-1839," probably the fullest treatment of the exodus to date, doesn't document any deaths on the journey itself (although he does note that some later deaths in Illinois were attributed to the physical hardships endured during the 200 mile trek). Presumably some Saints died as a result of their forced removal from the state, but I have not seen a single documented case. Certainly they weren't dying by the hundreds (that didn't happen until they settled in Nauvoo).

[Ceeboo]

Wow!

This thread has surely been a learning experience for me. (To say the least)

Thanks to all for the contributions.

Nevo, USU, Narrator, (or any other of you "Pundit-Heads" ) would you be so kind as to paint me/us a picture of what happened AFTER these events (Say, in the next few years)?

Thanks and peace,

Ceeboo

[USU78]

Nevo, USU, Narrator, (or any other of you "Pundit-Heads" ) would you be so kind as to paint me/us a picture of what happened AFTER these events (Say, in the next few years)?

The Mormons had a tough time of it in 1839 in what later became Nauvoo: it was a swampy area and there was bad water and insect-born disease. Cholera and whatnot. There are tales of miraculous healings and acute suffering. They pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, however, and started draining the swamp and acquiring the improved land from the speculators who took a runner on the cheap but unbuildable area. Nauvoo arose out of sickness and muck and weakness from the trek out of Far West, Missouri, to become one of the two largest cities in Illinois by the time of JSJr's assassination by the Carthage "militia" in 1844. The Mormons, now led by Brigham Young, President of the 12 Apostles, stayed in Nauvoo long enough to finish building the Temple there, amid cannonades and other outrages by the good folks from Carthage, Warsaw and a few other local burghs. In 1846, in deep Winter, they crossed the ice on the frozen Mississippi into Iowa for the trek to Winter Quarters on the Missouri on the West end of Iowa. A lot of misery on that trek, too, as an early thaw made a 2'-deep mire of the trail in many places. A fair number of deaths from exposure and hardship, including she who should have been my G-G-grandmother and her child, born just before they mounted up. They're buried, G-d knows where, along the Mormon Trail in Iowa.

[Ceeboo]

A fair number of deaths from exposure and hardship, including she who should have been my G-G-grandmother and her child, born just before they mounted up. They're buried, G-d knows where, along the Mormon Trail in Iowa.

Oh dear! USU

Thanks for the reply as well as being willing to share your deep seated emotional roots for the benefit of folks like me.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Brenda]

The Mormons had a tough time of it in 1839 in what later became Nauvoo: it was a swampy area and there was bad water and insect-born disease. Cholera and whatnot. There are tales of miraculous healings and acute suffering. They pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, however, and started draining the swamp and acquiring the improved land from the speculators who took a runner on the cheap but unbuildable area. Nauvoo arose out of sickness and muck and weakness from the trek out of Far West, Missouri, to become one of the two largest cities in Illinois by the time of JSJr's assassination by the Carthage "militia" in 1844. The Mormons, now led by Brigham Young, President of the 12 Apostles, stayed in Nauvoo long enough to finish building the Temple there, amid cannonades and other outrages by the good folks from Carthage, Warsaw and a few other local burghs. In 1846, in deep Winter, they crossed the ice on the frozen Mississippi into Iowa for the trek to Winter Quarters on the Missouri on the West end of Iowa. A lot of misery on that trek, too, as an early thaw made a 2'-deep mire of the trail in many places. A fair number of deaths from exposure and hardship, including she who should have been my G-G-grandmother and her child, born just before they mounted up. They're buried, G-d knows where, along the Mormon Trail in Iowa.

Many of us have ancestors involved. After the expulsion from Nauvoo, they camped (in the winter weather) on the other side of the Mississippi where several babies were born while women held blankets over the birthing mothers to keep off the rain. My ancestor, Jane Black, was the midwife attending to those births.

[HiJolly]

Oh dear! USU

Thanks for the reply as well as being willing to share your deep seated emotional roots for the benefit of folks like me.

Peace,

Ceeboo

Thank you for that thought, Ceeboo.

Many of us have relatives/ancestors who made that terrible trek.

My 5th son was born during the 150-year anniversary(loosely) of the trek, on the re-enacting trek itself, in a tent in Wyoming. 10 July 1997.

Getting the birth certificate was fun.

HiJolly

p.s. My 6th son was born in the toilet. He's dealing with it.

[gmormon]

...p.s. My 6th son was born in the toilet. He's dealing with it.

My brother Charles was born in an outhouse. His middle initial is "S" and we always teased him about what it really stood for He' dealing with it too

[Ceeboo]

Thank you for that thought, Ceeboo.

Many of us have relatives/ancestors who made that terrible trek.

My 5th son was born during the 150-year anniversary(loosely) of the trek, on the re-enacting trek itself, in a tent in Wyoming. 10 July 1997.

Getting the birth certificate was fun.

HiJolly

p.s. My 6th son was born in the toilet. He's dealing with it.

Hey HiJolly,

What an interesting story about your son's birth (The 5th one, to be clear)

For the re-enacting trek, how long was it?

How many people did this on the 150 year anniversary?

Sorry about son # 6. We all have crap to deal with in life (No pun intended )

BTW, a few weeks ago we had a bon fire in the back yard with a lot of the neighbors over and a discussion started about Church choirs (One of my neighbors is in his Church choir and another is the director of music at a different Catholic Church (Very silly rival thing going on between these 2 grown men ).

Any hooo, they started this arguement over who had the best music when one of them finally said "I guess it really doesn't matter, the Mormon Tabernacle choir is far better than all of them".

Made me think of you

Paece,

Ceeboo

[Stargazer]

I am not sure what link you meant to link to- but that one goes to my profile. Is that what you meant to do? I am not getting it either way.

Rather than trying to spell out your name, I copy/pasted it, then couldn't immediately get rid of the link. So I just said heck with it, leave it there. I was just correcting my own statement about them getting the word on evacing the town in advance of the attack.

[HiJolly]

Hey HiJolly,

What an interesting story about your son's birth (The 5th one, to be clear)

For the re-enacting trek, how long was it?

How many people did this on the 150 year anniversary?

http://www.americanwest.com/trails/pages/mormtrl.htm

The Mormon Pioneer Trail -- The Trail Today

Congress established the Mormon Pioneer National Historic Trail as part of the National Trails System on November 10, 1978. This historic trail commemorates the 1846-47 journey of the Mormon people from Nauvoo, Illinois to the Valley of the Great Salt Lake. The designated corridor is almost 1,300 miles long and is managed as a cooperative effort among private landowners, trail associations, state and local agencies, the National Park Service, the Bureau of Land Management, and the U.S. Forest Service. Land ownership along the trail is comprised of 822 miles (64%) on private land, 264 miles (20%) under federal management, and 214 miles (16%) in state and local ownership.

Much of the trail is no longer visible, though some trail segments and sites can be visited. Long stretches of the trail can still be seen in Wyoming. A map of the historic route and sites can be obtained from any one of the mentioned public service organizations. If you want to visit sites on private land you must obtain the landowner's permission.

-----

4/20/97 - Forty families departed from Council Bluffs, Iowa yesterday on a three-month, 1,100 mile re-enactment of the great Mormon migration to Salt Lake City. The Mormon Trail Wagon Train is a means of paying homage to ancestors who made the demanding journey in 1847.

The walkers hope to arrive in Salt Lake City on July 22, two days before Pioneer Day, Utah's state holiday that commemorates the original pioneers' arrival at the Great Salt Lake valley.

[end of article]

Ensign article

This article is interesting to me because it says nothing whatever about the birth, though it does mention Ken ****en, the husband of the midwife whose tent was the birthplace of my son. The Church people were actually quite put out by the birth, since they had absolutely nothing to do with it, and it was done without their 'permission' (I could say a lot here, but I won't).

See the headlines of the 10 July 1997 Deseret News (or was it the 11th?) Here's an excerpt:

"A new baby and an old wall were in the spotlight Thursday as the 1997 Sesquicentennial Mormon Trail Wagon Train Re-enactment took a daylong break from the trail.

Henry made his debut in a tent about 2:40 p.m. Thursday. His mother was attended by midwives, just as some of Henry's maternal ancestors would have been as they followed the pioneer trail. The healthy, red-haired infant weighed 8 pounds, 4 ounces and was 21 1/4 inches long.The birth added yet another note of realism to the memorial trek. The (parents) haven't been part of the journey across the plains but joined temporarily so their son could later tell the tale of being born on the trail.

The idea was broached by Shauna ****en, a full-time member of the wagon train who is intent on making the trek as realistic as possible. Her ancestor, Patty Bartlett Sessions, was a pioneer midwife who assisted in many births on the trail and in Utah Territory, delivering more than 3,700 babies.

****en contacted a group of Utah midwives and asked if they had a client ready to deliver who would like to join the wagon train for the birth.

Midwife Dianne Bjarnson approached the (parents) with the suggestion, but they were only lukewarm. When (the mother) went into on-again-off-again labor three days ago, she changed her mind.* The couple drove to Fort Bridger Thursday "and in about 45 minutes, we had a baby," ****en said.

She had prepared her tent for the event, and one midwife came earlier to see that everything was ready for a safe and sanitary delivery.

"It happened the way it was supposed to happen," agreed Bjarnson, who has attended the mother for earlier births."

* -- The article doesn't state that the reason we changed our mind was because of a direct answer to my wife's prayer concerning whether or not we should go.

Sorry about son # 6. We all have crap to deal with in life (No pun intended )

ROFL.

BTW, a few weeks ago we had a bon fire in the back yard with a lot of the neighbors over and a discussion started about Church choirs (One of my neighbors is in his Church choir and another is the director of music at a different Catholic Church (Very silly rival thing going on between these 2 grown men ).

Any hooo, they started this arguement over who had the best music when one of them finally said "I guess it really doesn't matter, the Mormon Tabernacle choir is far better than all of them".

Made me think of you

Paece,

Ceeboo

Thanks. The Choir has a new release that is #1 on the Classical Billboard chart. WooHoo!

HiJolly

[frankenstein]

Jacob Hawn was not a Mormon so he can hardly be blamed for not heeding the Prophet's call to flee to Far West.

that is interesting. Everything I have found supports the notion that Jacob Haun as know by Hauns Mill is the same Jacob Hawn who settled in Yamhill County Orgeon in the 1840's. I have not been able to find a connection between Beverly Clearly (Bunn). But as much as I like to presume every thing is on the interwebs...alas, everything is not.

update ok figured it out....everything is on the interwebs.:

Jacob Hawn's Daughter Mary Edith Amine HAWN married John Marion BUNN one their sons Chester Lloyd BUNN is the father of Beverly Clearly (Bunn) who is the widow of Clarence Cleary

[ERayR]

that is interesting. Everything I have found supports the notion that Jacob Haun as know by Hauns Mill is the same Jacob Hawn who settled in Yamhill County Orgeon in the 1840's. I have not been able to find a connection between Beverly Clearly (Bunn). But as much as I like to presume every thing is on the interwebs...alas, everything is not.

update ok figured it out....everything is on the interwebs.:

Jacob Hawn's Daughter Mary Edith Amine HAWN married John Marion BUNN one their sons Chester Lloyd BUNN is the father of Beverly Clearly (Bunn) who is the widow of Clarence Cleary

It would take more evidence than this shows to prove theis was the same Jacob Haun.